Despite usually agreeing with Taibi and Kline, I tend to side with Bill and the guy in the middle on this.

The Republicans are down right now, and when they try to get back up for mid-terms next year, it will be effective for Dem's to throw torture in their face. Right now the Dem's look like the good guys and the GOP looks pathetic and out of touch. Do we really want to mess with that dynamic? It would become the issue for years, and it would let the Republicans talk about how what they did kept us safe and put the Dem's in the position of talking about what's wrong with the GOP. We've done that enough. Everyone is tired of it. Time, energy and political capital are much better spent addressing health care, the environment, Afghanistan, etc.. If we stop torturing and make that known, if we broker a just peace for Palestine and Israel, if we work to right Afghanistan and Iraq, the world will see that we've changed course. We don't need a trial for that.

And besides, what is the best case of an investigation? Does anyone think that Bush or Cheney would do time? Let's save trying them for the Hague where we might really get justice.

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His argument is a transparently bogus cop out enabled by the chattering pundit class, to which he is the court jester.

Naomi Klein has got it right on this.

Appoint a special prosecutor and let them sort it out, this reinforces the rule of law and takes it out of partisan hands.

If we don't, then our republic is doomed.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

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Maher showed his true sycophantic colors on his show when interrupted by 911 Truthers. Maher was right in there with the Rightwing MSM cover up gang. No surprises here, just massive disappointment in them and much of human nature. Even Klein, as good as she is, took a dive on 911. 'Has to be MSM influence as even superficial research shows that crime to be the biggest Rightwing crime since the JFK hit, also covered up by our CIA asset media. Light years from Morrow. Maybe they remember, or are reminded, what happened to him and lost enthusiasm for speaking truth to power?

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We're afraid Republicans will rally around torture? Their comeback will be based on torture? Come on, Americans hate torture in our name. If the stories get out with specifics on how Cheney ordered torture and then innocent people were tortured, we'll be glad to see him go to prison. And I don't see how it would totally consume the next three years, seeing that the media hardly reports on it now.

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I'd like nothing more than to see these freaks exposed for what they are and driven out of government forever - 37 years ago! Not prosecuting Nixon and his henchmen effectively, set the table for what we've experienced since then. They (and many of today's players go back to that time) were not simply let off the hook, they were emboldened by what they had gotten away with. The lesson they learned was that they could commit even greater crimes if they were simply a little more thorough and devious in the planning and implementation of them to stifle any attempts at prosecution. And so they have been. additionally, they have been totally unapologetic and arrogant in ways that would make old crooks like Nixon and Reagan blush.

Bill Maher can be cute about it and pretend to be outraged, but the bottom line is he is simply an entertainer without the stomach to do the real and difficult work of defending liberty. That's okay, he has his role, but he shouldn't act as a deterrent to those who will have to do the heavy lifting.

Yesterday would not have been too soon to see Rove, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Rice, Gonzalez, DeLay and a long list of others marched off to jail, but I can wait awhile for the case to develop, As long as there is an occasional demonstration of progress being made toward that end, I can wait. Let them marinate in their guilt and let the evidence acumulate and percolate in the public conscience until the right moment, when guilt is so firmly founded that their protestations and counter attacks fall on deaf ears.

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Bill does have some good points here the right-wingers do thrive such a whirlwind as a torture trial. We need to turn the investigation over to an outside authority such as the UN/world court.

I wrote 'The Post-bush recovery period' about a year before BO took office, posted whatreallyhappened.com/.

The software limits me to 4k characters for the full posting see: http://whatreallyhappened.com/forum/14563

Now I post an abbreviated version:

The Post-bush recovery period

In our past we as a nation have failed to take action against most political criminals. After WWI no one dealt with Germans and we got Hitler. Hoover, McCarthy & Nixon again inaction and from that era we got we got bush43 , many of the tainted and corrupt bush movers & shakers. Albeit late in the game we need take firm action to right our ship.

There are major questions outstanding regarding Bush & the boys culpability, substance, competence etc.. Was the problem with the bush 43 administration actually all bush?

“Just how did Bush morph into an insecure, sadistic juvenile incapable of moral reasoning? Could it be that the pressures of the presidency overwhelmed his limited capacities? That he was manipulated by men far shrewder than himself?”
Unknown

Regardless of the answer to the above questions; “W” has left the US needing a major image make-over and to promptly redress the last 8 years crimes & failures. There are no good/clear answers to our problems, however the US needs to win back our and others confidence by bucking up and displaying leadership.


First stop the money-corruption cycle, do away with political-influence money and lobbyists by funding our election campaigns exclusively from the US tax dollar with equal amounts of money to support the top five parties/candidates. Vote with your ballot for if you vote with the dollar big money is winning now and will win every time.

Second request independent unimpeded UN and/or World Court investigation(s) of bush II & staff. If requested turn any or all over to a Word Court for further investigation and any suggested penalty. The proceedings should be held in a Nuremberg form court of law with goals to find out and daylight what bushII and the Texas Taliban have done to our rights & liberties as well as addressing war crimes and/or treasonous acts carried out by leadership. Pay attention to US/international statute of limitation laws as they may apply to such crimes. Offer blanket/limited amnesty to those willing to provide information regarding bushII and the Texas Taiban investigations.

Third turn all 2000/2004 election records over to an independent UN committee for investigation and possible corrective and/or punitive measures.

Fourth request the UN provide unrestricted oversight of our future presidential elections.

Fifth validate the treaties so rashly nullified post 9/11. Void the legal opinion from former Justice Department official John Yoo asserting that President Bush possessed unlimited authority as Commander in Chief, including the power to have military interrogators abuse terror suspects.

Sixth Repeal the Patriot act, FISA laws, Military Commissions Act of 2006 and The Protect America Act, John Warner National Defense Authorization Act, Roll all our rights and liberties back (or should I say forward) to the pre-drug war days and reinstitute laws only if they pass stringent (read Libertarian) Constitutional tests.

Seven Israel/Palestine have squandered our credibility, money and efforts over a 60-odd year span and still unable to settle their differences. Give 90 days notice, wash our hands of all responsibilities, pull out and let the chips fall where they may.

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The root cause of all the evil of the Bush/Cheney clusterfuck, too many parts of which are still intact today, is the colossal act of treason on 9/11! As bad as the other criminal acts were (torture, spying, illegal wars, false arrests, murder, treasury looting, etc.), they all pale into insignificance when compared to the mass murder and highest treason committed by elements of our own government on 9/11!

I don't know Reza but Naomi has copped out on exposing U.S. complicity/conspiracy, Tiabbi felt compelled to ridicule 9/11 Truthers here on Alternet and can never be trusted on any other issue now, and Mahar...just a lightweight comedian (frequently not even funny) that rides his pseudo liberal viewpoints for viewer ratings. Why can't these media pundits be brave enough to tell the truth, or at least question, the ludicrous 9/11 Commission Report? Hasn't Cheney's CIA assassination squad been disbanded yet?

Come on, President Obama, disband the out-of-control CIA, replace the Bush appointees at the Justice Dept., and help us weed out the co-conspirators of 9/11 that are still in Congress. Trying to bring the left & right together is just going to get you animosity from both. Screw the right-wingers, jail the criminals, clamp down on the corporations, and let's get our country running smoothly & humanely again!

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I enjoy Maher and I think he does raise alot of people's consciousness about politics but I'm sure he REALLY loves his lifestyle and paycheck and like most of the "haves" in this country he is only willing to go so far. Let's face it, more people in this country know what's really going on than are seriously trying to do anything about it. They aren't all stupid, ignorant or assholes, they just hope to make things better without sacrificing too much.

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I forgot to add to my post - I greatly resepct the cajones of Matt Taibbi and Naomi Klein is pretty darn close to a perfect woman. She's smart, gutsy, principled and gorgeous (I'm still just a man LOL).

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Doing the right thing should not be a political maneuver. Suggesting that prosecuting monumental criminal actions might give the other side something to rally around is nonsense. What is their platform? We are Pro-Life and Pro-Torture! It keeps us safe. . .

A big reason why Bush's approval was so low through most of his second term was because of this issue. Americans are ashamed of this stain on our reputation. Torturing innocents in our name while the whole world watches is mortifying to me. And all because of this pre-emptive war of aggression, that we all really know is about oilin the short term, and geo-political military strategy in the long term. I know from experience that many conservatives turned away from Bush because of this issue exactly. Centrists, the so called Reagan Democrats, or the Obamacans flocked to the "Left", and the ones left defending these actions are a scary sort indeed. Beck, and Hannity, Limbag, and Savage. No wonder the Republicans are down with spokesman like these.

I say let them embrace torture. Proclaim its greatness to the whole world. Prosecute, convict and put the criminals in prison. They can run around trying to win elections in defense of convicted felons whose offense was kidnapping people, not informing their families of their where abouts, holding them with no representation, torturing them for years, and then releasing them after they finally decide that they are not a threat after all. . . and we need to do it to keep us safe. It would be an easier argument than a Pro-Life v. Pro-Choice, which is one argument about two different things, and is why it goes on the way it does. Our midterms could be between those who are for Torture and those who are agaisnt it.

That said Maher is a Tool. He is a mouthpiece. He does not get paid the big bucks to tell you what he thinks. He gets paid to advance an agenda. He is also so far to the right that he sometimes seems left. The notion that the Republican party is on its death bed is ridiculous. It will be back. It will actually take much longer for it to come back if it tries to rally around the defense of torturers. On the other hand if the Democrats decide not to do anything about it they will seem ambivolent on torture, and will make the next election about something people are more polarized about. Lets make it about torture. Who is for it and who is ashamed it happened and wants to make it right by law, for ourselves, and by God. I call Maher's bluff and his bogus argument.

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...is an a$$hole and a shill for corporate Amerikkka. He plays the "liberal" card to make money just like Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Bilely etc., do...to make big bucks.

He has supported the Shrub, the Surge, and played nice with Joe the Plumber to list a few. He plays nice with every conservative invited on the program. Never asks the hard questions.

To support torture and the torturers in any way shape or form is just another chunk out of what helped make this country great.

Sure it will be hard to bring those responsible to trial. This country used to be built on the fact that the job was hard, but we did it anyway.

If Mahr were alive during the American Revolution, I am sure he would have found an excuse to give in to the British because it would be a distraction...from him making money.

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A new ABC poll shows that a majority of Americans favor investigating whether Bush administration officials broke the law regarding torture. An independent investigation would reaffirm the basic American principle that no one is above the law.

Join GreenChange.org in calling on Attorney General Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate whether Bush administration officials violated laws prohibiting torture.

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IT'S AN INTERNATIONAL CRIME!!!
WE lost the right to prosecute for the crime of Torture as soon as we used it on a non citizen!!
The Bushies invalidated every facet of our legal system, the Military and All Three Branches of Gov't (Scalia's hairsplitting on torutre v Punishment circular illogic)
Torture is not with in our legal right to even investigate at this point, neither are Rendition,Black Sites, Hit squads...And what ever else occured outside the realm of our sole jurisdiction.
Sorry Folks but the Left is as big a Dumbass, enablers as the Right even debating this issue.
What we should be discussing are the numerous charges which should be leveled against the Masterminds for TREASON- the acts which afforded them the ability to commit War crimes and Crimes against Humanity. Let's talk about porsecuting for lying to US about Iraq. Let's prosecute for usurping the Constitution with wiretapping. Let's talk about Abuse of Power....There are probably HUNDREDS of various Charges with numerous counts we can punish these people with which Are within our right and Realm of legality.
Let's stop debating Torture and start leveling TREASON charges.
Here's a little hint those on the Left with their panties in a twist..Why do you think Obama is Releasing all these memos if he intended to prosecute for War crimes here. He or congress could do so without releasing the most damning evidence to the Media, and inturn the International community...He's providing ACTIONABLE evidence to the International community!!He and many in Congress Know this is not a purely domestic issue or crime.They are providing the documentation, the leg work and in Cheney's Case, the taped Confessions.
Want to take the knees out from under the Right and the Co conpirators- Tell them we intend to let the International community handle this international Crime!!Quite playing into the manipulation of the facts.Fact is they should face an international court like any other regime who has committed War crimes or crimes against humanity- Like the Nazi's, Like Pol Pot, Like so many others before them. The Bushies must answer to the global community. And in so Doing- Granting the Internaitonals every form of assistance we can provide, WE will prove that WE are still a nation of Laws within our borders and as part of the larger Community.

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We likely won't end up with the investigation or healthcare.

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The US code of justice is in essence our identity. Our Bill of Rights was born as a reaction to the very abuses that republicans now advocate. We fought a long bloody war to prove to the British, the world and most importantly OURSELVES that we will not live under tyrants nor will we live AS tyrants. We are what we do.

But if so called enhanced interrogation techniques were legal and they worked, why did the CIA destroy the tapes? Why did JD Attorneys have to torture the law to fig leaf the policy? Why did all 4 branches of the military refuse to sign off on the policy and why did the FBI refuse to have anything to do with it?

If the price of safety is torture then give me danger. I do not want your so called "safety". It is an illusion anyway. Savagery begets savagery and the chickens will always come home to roost.

A failure to investigate and where necessary prosecute is a betrayal of the rule of law. It is shameful that no one above the rank of Sergent is being held responsible; and it is shameful that those who now defend these policies never defended those who serve(d) time for them.

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He's even kicked people out of his audience for asking about 9/11. He belives we were told the truth! Yeah, I used to like him because he supported legalization of cannabis, but now all my affection for him has been "sucked out of the room."

Also, a real investigation would implicate more than just Republicans. Pelosi did know about the torture program, knew it was being currently carried out, and absolutely could have done a number of things to stop it. Instead, she acted like the coward who she is, and instead blocked any attempts at Impeachment hearings in the House, where they had to begin!
Republicans would not "thrive" under such srutiny. This, IMO, would make people aware of how corrupt our government is! This is not a partisan issue for me, and if it is for other people then they're missing the whole point.

Americans should not EVER torture, I don't care how many fu**in' attacks we have! And I want everyone in our government that participated in any way--even if it was just to cover it up--in this torture program gone!

If Americans want to choose a brutal dictatorship, a police society, then go ahead, but you need to change the name of the country and accept everything else that comes with a police state.

Otherwise, a free society can never be completely safe. Prosecuting these bastards for torture will make us more safe, not less. The reason we're not safe is because we're in the M.E. supporting a Holocaust on the Palestinian people by the Israeli fascist government, and because we're blowing up people's weddings, birthday parties, religious ceremonies, bombing hospitals, schools, etc.!
If some country came over and bombed YOUR family completely out of existence, and you knew you were completely innocent--as are most of the people we kill, over and over and over--you'd want some type of retribution, too. This is not a rare thing. We are mainly killing innocent civilians. We need to obey our Constitution, and keep out of these foreign entanglements and "nation building." Oil will be gone within ten years, period, unless the population of the world is severely reduced. Perhaps that is their goal...all because they were too stupid to start developing alternative energies back in the 70s when American oil production peaked. Go to YOUTUBE and watch "The Most Important Video (1 of 8) you will ever see." It's about arithmetic, population, and energy. You will be shocked to learn the truth.

For those that think torture is okay, I hope someday you get to experience it, you sick f***s.

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has provoked the vile anti-semites out of the closet and in to print. Maybe they would be happier with the Ku Klux Klan. Or maybe that's not viscious enough for them.

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Bill Maher and Reza Aslam come across as the most intelligent of the foursome. Without a doubt there were many horrendous activities that took place during the last administration but it seems illogical to get bogged down trying to make amends for our past activities.

I can think of many present monstrosities in this country and throughout the world that far outweigh the importance of scolding adults for things they have done in the past. This becomes especially relevant when you accept the fact that we are all responsible for directly or indirectly taking part in the inhumanity to man on even a larger scale.

Don't you think it's time to stop wasting time "getting even", "teaching lessons" or "idealizing"?

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There are two ways of looking at this. If 911 was indeed perpetrated by Bin Laden and his associates, then the ‘war on terrorism’ would be just that, and governments would be compelled to resort to whatever means is necessary to bring the criminals to justice. After all, we’ve seen enough movies that would explain why governments are sometimes forced to take the measures they do.

But suppose the real culprits behind 911 are the very same people who authorise the torturing of otherwise innocent people. Goebbels said ‘if you’re going to lie to the people, make it a BIG FAT WHOPPER.’

The video itself is one huge disappointment. The Authorities were quick enough to put Saddam on trial, and having him executed was a foregone conclusion.

USA is racked by fear, so nobody has the courage to say what they really think. A lot of contributors to the articles appearing on Alternet believe that Alternet itself should spearhead a 911 investigation, but the people in the video (who write many of the articles) are just too damned scared of the consequences. They are so guarded on what they said on the video, it’s amazing. Plainly, these people are paid to sanitise the truth and make it palatable and ripe for after dinner chit chat.

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I posted this as a reply to the first set of comments but meant to put it at the end - oh well:

This is a tough one (and way too many posts to read to see if others have said the same thing). While I don't recall that we signed on to the ICC, I still think charges, evidence gathering and final judgment (if that's possible) by outsiders might be the optimum (not the 'best') solution. [The 'best' solution in my mind is that we take on the responsibility of litigating transgressions against our laws, treaties and Constitution]. I lean toward the comments of Bill and Reza - the 'other' party will make as much hay with this as they did with Clinton's impeachment and the agenda we need (with one huge exception - I'll get to that) will fall by the wayside.

The agenda we need includes 'the rule of law' as many like to say. Matt made the cogent point that a seller of a 'dime bag' gets 5 years but those who have trashed humanity get a neck massage - well put. Let the trials occur and if 'they' prevail, they will have prevailed by virtue of the system we have in place to deal with such transgressions. If 'they' don't prevail, then dole out what punishment is called for. Seems to me our fundamental, Constitutional system is on trial, not 'torture'. Torture is the result of law-breaking and it's the law-breaking that needs to be addressed. I.e., in any legal action,the facts of the accident/crime, not the result are what's used to determine culpability - i.e., just because someone suffers an injury doesn't mean a 'law' was broken.

I suspect this is old enough that no one will read it but I feel better ;>)

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For those of us who voted for a change in the way our government serves its responsibilities, we must now not settle for anything less than the change we mandated by our votes. Of course the Conservatives, regardless of the political party banner they wrap themselves in, are going to resist any change attempted. Of course they will, and do, try to politicize every issue and proposed solution. Just yesterday, at Senator Whitehouse's sub-committee hearing on torture (see www.c-span.org )Senator Lindsey Graham was caught 'red-handed' trying to introduce a previously debunked "official statement" into the official record. This is what these people do!!! They intentionally pollute our national political air at every opportunity, and those that actually do represent us, and the change we voted for, need to be supported in their attempts to do so.
Many of the comments herein, while purportedly addressing an interest in such needed change, reflect not only a lack of viable information, but a penchant for sensationalist exaggeration and outright bull shit. Those that practice this type of behavior are every bit as much a part of the problem as the dissemblers and liars that have caused the problems we all want to solve.
Those that have become so cynical about our ability, as a people, to "Right our ship of State" can not, because of their blindness, be a part of the solution. However, there are thousands of our citizens that understand, based on careful study and reason, that we can determine the proper course, solve our problems, and when and where necessary, deal honestly and effectively with all of those who have violated the public trust.
It has taken over half of a century of corruption and public complacency and indifference for our nation to get into the mess it is in; it is time to stop pretending that merely repeating the same complaints over and over ad nauseum is tantamount to doing our duty as citizens. Not only is this intellectual laziness, it is cowardly behavior when so many of our fellow human beings are being robbed of their lives and treasure in our name.

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There will never again be accountability for anyone well-connected enough no matter how heinous the crime. And there will never again be justice for the un-connected and poor as tour rulers realize that they won't be held accountable, period.

Ian

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