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Should Prostitution Be Legalized?

Posted by Amelia , The Frisky at 7:32 PM on August 2, 2008.


The pros and cons of decriminalization and legalization.

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After last week's post about proposed legislation in San Francisco that would decriminalize prostitution and our poll that indicated that 73% of you not only supported decriminalization but legalization as well, we decided to take a more in-depth look at both. After the jump, we break down the differences and the pros and cons of both. There may be a soap box moment from yours truly as well.

Decriminalization does not legalize sex-for-hire work, but it does instruct local police departments to treat these cases as a low priority, similar to the way in which marijuana laws are enforced in the State of California. Essentially, law enforcement looks the other way, allowing prostitutes to have the peace of mind to report crimes against them, or other crimes they've witnessed, without fear of arrest. In some decriminalization proposals, the money spent on enforcing prostitution laws is redirected to social service organizations.

  • Proponents of decriminalization say doing so gives sex workers rights they wouldn't have otherwise (rights that are impossible to have when your workplace is "illegal") and offers prostitutes regular STD tests and pelvic exams, without fear of being turned in. When Berkeley, California, considered decriminalization a few years ago, Carol Leigh, a spokesperson for COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics), a San Francisco-based sex workers rights organization, said, "Generally, there is a distrust of the police among prostitutes. If you are raped, you don't go to the police." The theory is that decriminalization would make sex work safer -- for sex workers.
  • Opponents of decriminalization say that it would increase crime and attract sex workers and johns from other areas where sex work is criminalized. As a result, law enforcement in these areas would be under an even greater burden. Additionally, opponents say decriminalization might as well be legalization, since the laws are not actually actively enforced.

Legalization is what it sounds like. A few counties in Nevada have legalized prostitution -- primarily, prostitutes work in brothels with managers or madams. The brothels pay taxes, are regulated by the local government, and are an integral part of the local economy. In addition, brothels require monthly blood tests of sex workers, so as to safeguard against the spread of HIV and other STDs.

  • Proponents of legalization ultimately believe that outlawing prostitution violates an individual's civil liberties and one's freedom to do what one chooses with one's body. Like those in favor of legalizing drugs, proponents of legalization of sex-for-money argue that everyone benefits when sex work, which will go on regardless of legality, is monitored and regulated by the government. As a consequence, the spread of STD's would lessen, as would violent crimes against sex workers. Proponents point to Nevada's relatively successful bordello system as evidence legal prostitution can work.
  • Opponents of legalization believe prostitution contributes to high crime rates, rates that would only increase if prostitution were legalized. Many opponents believe sex work is amoral, a so-called profession that shouldn't be on a par with CEOs or school teachers. Legalization, in opponents' eyes, will lead to the downfall of American morality.

Since prostitutes must engage in sex work in a clandestine fashion, identifying the number of American women who engage in prostitution isn't easy. Most calculations range between 230,000 and 350,000, but some estimates run as high as 1.3 million. Some women who go into prostitution do so out of desperation. Some women do so for reasons that have nothing to do with victimization.

When I was in college, I wrote an article for my school paper about sex workers. One of the women I interviewed, who worked in a Nevada brothel, came from an upper-middle-class family, was a graduate of a prestigious university, and became a prostitute because she liked sex and found the profession empowering. That's not always the case for women who prostitute themselves, but the fact of the matter is that making sex work illegal has done nothing to deter men from soliciting or paying for sex.

The focus should be on keeping prostitutes safe, from abuse, assault, rape, and murder, as well as from sexually transmitted diseases. And if sex workers should be required to get regular blood and STD tests, so should the clients who see them. Whether these two protections -- against violence and against disease -- come about through decriminalization or legalization depend upon the letter of the law. Ultimately, I believe sex workers shouldn't be treated like drug dealers, violent criminals, or pimps who exploit women for monetary gain.

Do you think prostitution should be decriminalized? Legalized? Should a woman have a right to sell her body for sex if that's her choice? We want to hear your thoughts in the comments!


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Poor article
Posted by: mofoshrimp on Aug 2, 2008 9:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article doesn't even mention the widespread existence of male prostitution, as if all prostitutes are women and all johns are men. It's a great example of how gender roles blind people to reality, only allowing them to see along their preconceived lines.

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» RE: Poor article Posted by: jhecht
» RE: Poor article (?) Posted by: oregoncharles
» It already is legal Posted by: weathered
In the words
Posted by: sapatatanka on Aug 3, 2008 1:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of Peter Tosh:

Legalize it! (and I mean both prostitution and weed/all drugs)

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» RE: In the words Posted by: logic
» RE: In the words Posted by: Opinionator
Jackie Irish
Posted by: Jackie Irish on Aug 3, 2008 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Absolutely should be legalized for all of the above reasons and possibly 1 more: Legalizing prostitution for people of age could end up lowering rates of child prostitution. If most clients are simply horny adults looking for sex -in other words not pedophiles, then they would be less inclined to pay a child prostitute if there is an adult sex-worker who is legally allowed to provide the same service. I'm speculating here of course, but it might work.

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From a pro-choice perspective, I submit that what people want to do with their own bodies...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Aug 3, 2008 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is none of the government's business.

I don't like the idea of prostitution; it can ruin families, promotes the spread of disease...but it's not my family, and not my disease, and not my obligation to have my government tell other people not to harm themselves and those they claim(ed) to love.

Let the people do what they want, just as long as they don't come leeching back to the taxpayers in order to fix their mistakes.

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» RE: The free market is sacred Posted by: Edward George
WRONG AND WRONG
Posted by: Plexius2 on Aug 3, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Opponents of legalization believe..."

WRONG #1: "...prostitution contributes to high crime rates, rates that would only increase if prostitution were legalized."

ILLEGAL COMMERCE LEADS TO HIGH CRIME RATES. As has been pointed out, when alcohol was banned we saw a massive amount of new crime arise to produce, distribute, and consume bootleg liquor.

WRONG #2: "Many opponents believe sex work is amoral, a so-called profession that shouldn't be on a par with CEOs or school teachers. Legalization, in opponents' eyes, will lead to the downfall of American morality."

I have yet to hear in all these years a universally accepted definition of "American morality." When the opponents can provide that universally accepted definition, if it precludes legal prostitution, I will jump on their bandwagon. Of course, most progressives know that most sexual morality is relative to your level of sexual repression. And most sexual repression is a function of your religion. And since religions vary radically, there never will be an "American morality," unless some group starts a pogrom and eliminates the rest of us.

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'Sin Tax' alone would help our Deficit- Independent Contractors
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 3, 2008 8:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Gas, Cigarettes and alcohol are worthy of a Sin tax, so is Prostitution- What Dent it could make in our National Debt!
If we can't convince them to finally legalize Prostitution with the arguements Privacy, safety & health... then hit them where they live- their Wallets. Talk money and the 'moral' excuses will be trampled over on the way to pass the bill, Lobbists will be out in record numbers.
They are already trafficking in human misery, and Orgnaized crimes when it comes to Oil, maybe this human Commodity market might re focus their greedy priorities. Tongue in Cheek.
Actually it should be legalized- but be considered an occupation which requires a 'independent' contractors license from those who perform the services. No forms of Incorporations,each must have proof of Declared Small Business license to avoid arrest and prosecution on Tax evasion, and have to adhere to their Small business Tax on earnings.Tax Evasion is a far more heavy crime then solicitation - higher fines, longer time

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Why did we fight the Revolutionary War if not for the Declaration of Independence?
Posted by: channing on Aug 3, 2008 11:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Where is the banning or outlawing of personal consumption of drugs or sex in that foundational principle?

Where in that principle is the authority for one person to dictate to another what constitutes unalienable Liberty?

Drug and sex laws are now, and have always been a devious means of public manipulation and control by those who set themselves on the throne of god, pretending divinity, but intending suppression of Life and subordination of others to a man-made order:

De Facto FOR PROFIT GOVERNMENT!

Think of reducing the size of the criminal justice system by a third or better... how many judges, lawyers, clerks, police, FBI agents, paperwork, citizen expenses, courthouses, jails, squad cars... think about how much OUR GOVERNMENT IS PROFITING OFF OF UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS!

...talk about government inefficiency... whoa!

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Legalization of Prostitution in the Netherlands
Posted by: Pointer on Aug 3, 2008 1:04 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my country prostitution is legalized in October 2000 to pull drugs-abuse, crime and voluntary sex-work by mature independent professionals apart. However, after the legalization there was no control over the business. Old businesses, led by criminals, became the first to be legalized, seemingly to give them time to go with their illegal practices in the underground.
That's not the way it can work very well.
After some time Dutch legal and independent sex-workers did their work at home and illegal sex-workers became hidden behind several call-organizations. Brothels with permits experience bad times with a lack of sex-workers.

There is another crazy phenomenon. The standard permit has a ruling that the John or madam of a brothel is responsible for the health and decent morality in their business.

The legalization is based on changing the old criminal system, but I don't believe this is fruitful. A prostitute can be legal and professional when
1. the prostitute is 18+ years of age and
2. he/she does sex-work voluntarily and
3. is independent in choosing the clients and
4. can make arrangements without being directed by another than the client and
5. has his/her stock of engaged clients and
6. the engaged clients are as well tested on HIV as the sex-worker is and
7. the money is paid in direct debit and calculated per hour as suited in the engaged arrangement.

If the sex-worker can't manage such a business he/she has not enough quality to do the job alone, but more of them can organize a partnership or franchise cluster with common administration, services and facilities.

A sex-worker does not have to be employed by an employer. There is no respect and no medical safety with traffic of clients at random.

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Let's advertise women like we do hamburgers!
Posted by: Zenobia on Aug 3, 2008 6:40 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh wait--we already do that.

So when we are driving down the highway, and the billboard for the whore house is flashing, how do I explain that to my young niece?

"Well, honey, unfortunately we live in a country where what's between women's legs is a commodity. Women here are things to be bought and sold like shoes or steaks. Yes, you can be a lawyer when you grow up, but all the guys around you will be looking at you with the same eyes that they look at their whores with. That is, they will look at you as a thing, a sexual servant to "their needs," and not an intellectual equal. So you can take yourself as seriously as you want to, but culturally, your real worth is your t & a. Sorry sweetie, that's just the way it is. It's just a "natural part of male sexuality" for them to feel and be granted this sense of entitlement over women's bodies.

"Oh, and all of your boyfriends, and your husband if you get married some day, don't expect to be able to tell them that this bothers you. Our whole culture tells them that this is their birth right. Good luck, sweetie. It's going to be tough out there. But I love you, and I believe you can be anything you want to be. Just remember that first and foremost, no matter what else you are, you need to be a sex object IF you expect to share in the company of men. If you aren't, your mates will just find women who are willing and eager to be, and then come home to you for OTHER kinds of comforts, like making their dinner, cleaning their toilets, and stoking their hair when they are puking from the flu."

You can argue all you want that it is gender stereotyping to assume women will be the sex workers, but I lived in SF for 8 years. There are scores and scores and scores of strip clubs throughout the city, more than I can possibly count. And I only know of *ONE* that has male dancers and is not aimed at gay men. (--and one campy trans strip club where gender is all mixed up and turned on its head.) We are still VERY MUCH IN A PATRIARCHY, where it is women who are the ones who are objectified, women who internalize their role as the objectified, men who are told it is their role "as men" to use women, and men who make more money to pay to do so. (--though the latter part is changing, so look out guys! Turn about may soon be fair play.)

And in the few years that sex work has become so "hip," the attitudes of men changed quite a bit around here. We used to be like brothers and sisters, friends and equals. Then more and more, guys expected us all to act like the sex workers, give them what the sex workers will, serve them as sex workers do. If we call it sexist or retro or patriarchal, we are "anti-sex," and just SOOOOO unhip.

Don't fool yourselves.

I got so sick of being treated like this by guys, and so irritated by increasing numbers of women who just thought is was a blast to play along, that I left the city and went somewhere else in the Bay Area that is less self-centered and more socially conscious.

I don't think sex workers themselves should be prosecuted for any of the reasons cited in this article. Logically, it would seem that doing so pushes violence and abuse farther underground and contributes to the spread of STDs. But to treat prostitution as nonchalantly as lemonade stands----that makes me feel like a piece of shit as a woman. It makes me feel instantly suspect of all men. It makes me feel utterly hopeless that gender equity can ever possibly be.

But so do "Cosmo" covers and mainstream shoe stores, where men's shoes are comfortable and women's shoes all look like medieval torture devices. We've come a long way BACKWARD, baby.

"A man can drink, a man can kill, a man can take a whore. And so it goes, around again, we wonder who the real men are." --a Tori Amos lyric.

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» RE: Quantity vs quality Posted by: patternbuilder
Not sure
Posted by: Dboy on Aug 3, 2008 10:53 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really not sure if prostitution should be "legalized" in the US. Here's why. First of all, what does "legal" really MEAN anymore in the US? To ask a question about legalizing something assumes that you have a government and legal system in place..the US doesn't have that anymore- at least not a legitimate one.

And next, Americans seem to me to be some of the most petty and shallow people on the planet. Are Americans really capable of being like people in cities like Amsterdam, Berlin, etc.?

Lastly, Americans seem to NEED and WANT their restraints. They LIKE to be "governed". They LIKE to be told they can't do things...makes them comfortable. Freedom is scary. Much better to pretend to be "individualists" while all dressing the same, thinking the same, worshiping the same gods, and hating the same enemies.

To legalize things like prostitution (and cannabis) would be to GROW UP...not sure America is ready for such mischief.

dboy

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» Growing up takes practice Posted by: patternbuilder
Prostitution
Posted by: momilitia on Aug 4, 2008 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a business with opportunities for men and women, does not hurt the enviornment and is a renewable resource, sounds good.

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If you want to have sex for money with people, it's your biz
Posted by: Bobsays on Aug 4, 2008 5:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do agree with police cracking down on sex trafficking, child sex and pimps. But if an individual wants to set themselves up as a sex worker and post their services on the web, then that should be their business. Between consenting adults is cool; all else is not cool.

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» The police are the traffickers Posted by: maxinedoogan
Toby
Posted by: Toby on Aug 4, 2008 5:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm gay and when I was in my late teens and early 20's, back in the '70s, I worked for several years as a stipper in NY's gay theaters, a venue for sex work. during that time I completed an MA and began a career as a teacher from which I am now retired. I have known many boys over the years who did the same thing and know some today who do (as friends, not as sex workers - I am in a very happy, long term monogamous relationship of my own.I mention that to indicate I have no personal stake in the issue at present) None of us were forced to do it. We enjoyed it, felt empowered by being considered attractive enough for men to give us money and often ,felt like we were a form of social worker for lonely older men who needed some kindness and intimacy in their lives.We also made very good money - money that helped pay for educations and so on. Like anything else, sex work is what you make of it. For some it is no doubt a downward spiral but for others it is liberating and profitable. The bottom line is that the government has no right to tell someone they can not accept cash for sex -whereas "gifts" to a spouse or lover to encourage sexual willingness are OK. As for it encouraging crime - well of course if you make it illegal, it will increase "crime!" By forcing it underground, it places both workers and customers at high risk and like all "Prohibition" type laws, it enables criminal organizations. As for Zenobia's difficulty in explaining it to her neice, how about just saying "its a free country and people can do what the want with their own bodies," as long as, in the words of King Edward VII, they "don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses."

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» RE: Toby Posted by: tap17x
Puritanism is as American as apple pie
Posted by: Starcatcher on Aug 4, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Zenobia's fears will not be addressed by keeping or changing the laws. As Dboy says "Americans need to grow up".

In 1965, as a young, naive, religious American GI, I went to Brazil, a very Catholic country, and was amazed at the "Houses on Stilts" (referring to the building construction of the first level being an columned, open, courtyard under the 10 floors of apartments) which were legal whorehouses. The women, many of whom were married and regular church goers, all had permits, stamped weekly by doctors, and they were taxpayers as well. I even had the experience of attending the wedding in the HoS, officiated by a priest, of the madam and a Brazilian man whom I worked with.

A subsequent decade living in Europe, where I daily walked past, and got to know socially, some of the working women in Amsterdam, or sold my leather goods (custom-made handbags, sandals, and belts) to the working women at the "Crazy Sexy" in Frankfort, Germany, and frequently walked by "Dr. Mueller's", a shop selling anything and everything (a true eye and mind opener!) to augment one's sexual experiences, taught me that treating sex, as something common, natural, and as ordinary as the local flower shop, was far more the norm in this world than America's pretending that sex is unnatural, forbidden, and should be illegal.

Once, while on the beach in Melbourne, Australia, where topless was legal for males and females (fought in court for by women as an equality issue), I was bemoaning America's penchant to tell others how to live. I was immediately reminded that, while Australia was settled by prostitutes and criminals, America was settled by Puritans, and that the mindset of the settlers has carried through to the present.

Until America gets over its Puritanism (I suggest by growing in psychological, philosophical, and spiritual consciousness) nothing is going to change its collective mindset - not even changing a few laws here and there throughout the country.

Americans are too afraid of the body (witness their fear of the dead) and this focus, this obsession, hinders an understanding and tolerance of mind and spirit. The body is the temple of the mind and deserves respect, but it is not the totality of a human existence.

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» RE: Puritanism is as American fetish Posted by: maxinedoogan
Prostitution should be legal
Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 4, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prostitution should be legal. Someone once commented that using attractive women in advertising--magazines, billboards, etc. (what to speak of women stripping, working in topless bars or merely posing nude!) is a subtle form of prostitution--women using their bodies for income.

Tracy Clark-Flory writes in Salon.com:

"At $25-$30 per hour, prostitutes make approximately four times what they likely would outside of the sex industry. Of course, that doesn't take into consideration on-the-job risks like contracting an STD (condoms were used in only a quarter of dealings) or being assaulted; researchers estimate that sex workers are assaulted an average of once a month. There's also the threat of being arrested, but according to the Economist, 'Prostitutes are more likely to have sex with a police officer than to be arrested by one.'"

Problems such as contracting STDs, being assaulted, pimp violence, etc. would not exist if prostitution were legal. Prostitution was legal in ancient India for the same reason the Prohibition of alcohol failed in the United States.

Commenting on Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.19, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami writes:

"By tricks of chance, one may be obliged to adopt a profession which is not very adorable in society...even in those days, about five thousand years ago, there were prostitutes in a city like Dwarka...This means that prostitutes are necessary citizens for the proper upkeep of society. The government opens wine shops, but this does not mean that the government encourages the drinking of wine. The idea is that there is a class of men who will drink at any cost, and it has been experienced that prohibition in great cities encouraged illicit smuggling of wine.

"Similarly, men who are not satisfied at home require such concessions...It is better that prostitutes be available in the marketplace so that the sanctity of society can be maintained."

Even some conservatives concede that prostitution can be victimless. In a 1995 column entitled "Prostitution as a Privacy Right," Robert Craig Paul, a syndicated columnist for the Washington Times, wrote:

"If a woman's right to control the use of her reproductive organs permits her to enter into a cash transaction with an abortionist, then how can this fundamental right of privacy not apply to other transactions involving her use of her body?

"...abortion has been against the law and restricted with greater intensity for more of our history than prostitution, reflecting social norms that abortion, viewed as infanticide, is more immoral than prostitution...

"In contrast (to abortion), prostitution is entirely an act between consenting parties that does not affect the bodily integrity, identity and destiny of a third party (the unborn)...

"It is legal nonsense that privacy conveys the right to abort, but not the right to ingest drugs or engage in sodomy...

"It will be interesting to watch the court sort out on the basis of Roe v. Wade why it is legal for a woman to contract for abortion but not prostitution."

Again, prostitution should be legal.

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Yes, legalize prostitution
Posted by: Bayardtom on Aug 4, 2008 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems odd that the oldest profession in the world should not be legal. It is the only way to regulate and also for the profession to be taxed. It has always been my idea that there should be some kind of regulation by the medical profession. It might also prevent the spread of std's.
Certainly this country needs more revenue from taxes and judging from the recent scandal surrounding the ex-governor of NY, there is money to be made in big numbers.

And while we're talking about taxing professions that are not required to pay taxes, how about churches? The churches own the most valuable real estate and should be required to kick in their share. How else are we to pay for all of the religious wars? Doesn't that irony strike anyone else?

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Legalize Prostitution
Posted by: joydg on Aug 4, 2008 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America is far behind. Of course we should legalize prostitution, pay the taxes, and the prostitutes (male or female) should have monthly health checks, etc., etc. Those who disagree can simply refrain from participating.

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» RE: Legalize Prostitution Posted by: tap17x
Of course
Posted by: Rey Hinckley on Aug 4, 2008 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course it should be legalized.
If it is not legalized, all people involved should be sentenced.

Prostitution will not be a problem if those who pay for it are risking exposure to the facts.

Many of those who are involved are "Christians" and the one word that should be a hallmark of Christianity is truth.

Peace!

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There is a laundry list of things that should not be criminal.
Posted by: reelectnoone on Aug 4, 2008 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addition to prostitution, pot should be decriminalized. We waste too much tax money trying to prevent people from doing things they have always done and will always do anyway. Better to collect some more tax dollars and let them do it than wasting many more tax dollars trying to stop it.

Governments have never been able to stop the will of the people and these things simply would not exist if the people did not want them.

Will we never learn?

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This writer promotes misinformation about the sex industry! Surprise
Posted by: maxinedoogan on Aug 4, 2008 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This writer makes all the typical mistakes that every other non sex worker writer makes in commentating on our occupation, she promotes the same misinformation based on what’s she’s learned from her classist shame based sex negative society.
Decriminalization is an important first step to enfranchise workers of the sex industry.
Legalization is top down organizing. We don’t need to be controlled. While you interview a worker from an upper-class background who worked in the legal setting, you missed the street based worker from the upper-class background. Get a fact; the Nevada Brothels have between 300 to 500 workers while the combined street based, home based, strip club, massage parlor, independent, outcall escorts, underground incalls workers are in the thousands. Hello!! There’s a reason for that. Its’ the same reason looky lou’s like you ought never be writing about our industry. Your title poses a question to the public like they have say over our bodies, and that would be the case because you are all slave owners?
Maxine Doogan
Proponent to decriminalize prostitution in San Francisco 2008

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All consensual behavior among adults
Posted by: PeaceLove on Aug 4, 2008 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
should be legal in a free society. Period.

Rape, child sexual slavery, and other perversions are not consensual and are already and properly illegal. But every adult in a free society (America?) should be free to do what they want with their own bodies, and to put whatever (or whoever) they want into them.

The Big Three consensual crimes are drugs, gambling, and prostitution, and all three should obviously be perfectly legal in a free society. The social and financial costs of managing legal behaviors will be far, far lower than the tens of billions of dollars we waste every year persecuting and prosecuting consenting adults.

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Might Keep Rethugs Out Of Jail
Posted by: cherylholmes on Aug 4, 2008 1:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seen on Craigslist: **** Republican Convention Party Entertainment -
Hostesses wanted **** - 18 (oakdale)

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
----------
Reply to: pers-766316401@ craigslist. org
Date: 2008-07-23, 1:11AM CDT

**** Republican Convention Party Entertainment - Hostesses wanted
****

We are offering Custom Coaches, Party Busses and Party Boats to
service High-end clients (VIPS) during the Republican Convention in
St. Paul/Minneapolis/ Hudson, August 25th - Sept.5th. Looking for fun,
outgoing hostesses to help entertain our established list of
sophisticated clients. Call or email to schedule an interview in
person. please call 651-403-2720 thanks

Location: oakdale
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial
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PostingID: 766316401

http://minneapolis. craigslist. org/ers/76631640 1.html

--- In thenewbushwhackerbr igade2@yahoogrou ps.com, cosmicdot
wrote:
>
> will McCain's 'acceptance speech' (if he's not replaced) focus on
GOP
> family values, interspersed with terra fear terra fear?
>
> maybe he was just warming things up pre-convention?
> ```````````` ````````` ````````` ````````` ````````` ````````` `````
>
> GOP stalwart arrested in 2-day St. Paul prostitution sting
>
> Last update: July 25, 2008 - 11:44 AM
>
> http://stmedia. startribune. com/images/ 208*225/1Hong072 51.jpg
> Peter Hong
>
>
> Peter Hong, a longtime Republican operative in Minnesota, was
arrested
> Wednesday afternoon on a charge of soliciting prostitution in St.
Paul.
>
> Police spokesman Peter Panos said that the arrest came during the
> first day of a two-day sting operation during which "johns" and
> prostitutes responded to ads placed on the Internet and in print.
> Thirty-five people were arrested Wednesday and Thursday, Panos said
today.
>
> He declined to say where the undercover operation was based.
>
> According to city and county records, Hong, 41, of Minneapolis, was
> arrested at about 3:40 p.m. on Wednesday and arrived at the Ramsey
> County jail just after 5 p.m. He was one of at least 19 men swept up
> during the first day of the sting, police records show.
>
> Hong, reached by phone Thursday, said: "I don't have any comment."
>
> Hong has been in and out of the Republican side of Minnesota
politics
> since the mid-1990s, when he surfaced as a genial bulldog campaign
> press secretary for former Sen. Rod Grams, R-Minn. He served as a
> spokesman for Gov. Tim Pawlenty's campaign in 2002 and for the
> Bush-Cheney campaign in Minnesota in 2004.
>
> Most recently, Hong was a point person for presidential candidate
Mike
> Huckabee. Gina Countryman, a spokeswoman for the Minnesota
Republican
> Party, said Hong is not currently working for any Minnesota
candidate.
>
> He is the third political figure to be arrested in a St. Paul
> prostitution sting in the past year.
>
> Last summer, police arrested Tim Droogsma, a press secretary to
former
> U.S. Sen. Rudy Boschwitz, who initially attributed his arrest to a
> "severe misunderstanding" before pleading guilty in January to an
> engaging-in- prostitution charge.
>
> In February, New Brighton City Council member David Phillips was one
> of nine men nabbed in a prostitution sting. His next court
appearance
> is in August.
>
> http://www.startrib une.com/local/ 25880574. html?page= 1&c=y

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Isn't sex part sacred because it is not associated with money?
Posted by: Vic Fedorov on Aug 4, 2008 6:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sex should not be associated with money. I think this is obvious. Associating sex with money is like the final triumph of a cold impersonal society.

Between the charactors who would pay a stranger for sex, and charactor of someone who would have sex with many people, I would conclude the glorification of prostitution is ill placed, and misinformed about the violence associated with these charactors and behaviors.

The difference between fucking and loving: Fucking is when two insecure people lie about having sex to the world, or allow false assumptions therein; making love is actual private intercourse.

I've little doubt prostutution is more the fucking kind.

The reason why there is so much fucking and so little love-making is that we really don't want to reproduce the Kingdom of God. Now I know this common christian term has been eschewed and relegated as irrelevant, but is a euphemism for a sad and serious state on earth sophisticated people are aware of; the media and politics ignores. So some literacy about the signification of a brain deadened state, this common christian term signifies in a service juxtaposed against a political and media order denying such, is essential to debating issues such as prostitution.

There is something about the vanity about misrepresenting sexual experience, an abscence, an abdication, that can then lead to a manipulation of the kingdom of god to a reproduction of the kingdom of god; so that when this sort of sex ed is figured out, the reproduction rate will severely drop, and there will be more for everyone, and the lack of forethought regarding our expansion, the essence of discussion to an economy, will be clearly seen.

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Dan Robinson
Posted by: Daniel35 on Aug 4, 2008 6:03 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To respond to the opponents, like with pot and some other drugs, legalization of prostitution would separate the relatively harmless behavior from the criminal element, so it would reduce crime rather than increase it. It's criminalization of harmless behavior that creates crime and disrespect for authority.

Every relationship, every interaction, has some aspect of division of labor and 'commerce', such as money for office work, office work and love for housework and sex and vice versa. We look for more of what we feel we lack in exchange for what we have available in excess. Why should money and sex be different, if both parties are agreeable? (Well okay, our money system is corrupt, with the rich getting richer instead of those who contribute the most getting richer in proportion, but that affects all commerce.)

"American morality" in this area is basically about "Be fruitful and multiply", "Don't spill your seed upon the ground", or wherever it won't make babies. There are already too many babies being made, and we need to look for relationships and behaviors that don't do that.

Criminalization of prostitution is sexist, since it's mainly a women's profession. Of course I'm against any partly involuntary dominent/ submissive relationship. Pimps are the real criminals here. With legalization, there would no longer be a place for such.

Since when is there a problem with attracting johns, and their money, from other areas (except that the idea will spread and soon we'll no longer have an advantage)?

STD tests for prostitutes and johns? I favor a 'non-ID' card, but with a picture, that says how recently I've been tested, with tabs that new partners tear off, to indicate how many new partners one has had since. Why should they be any harder to maintain than driver's licenses? But anyway, DNA analysis shows that humans have had various strains of AIDS many times in past evolution, eventually we'll have to go through it again, and I suspect not long from now.

danrob at efn.org

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A true article
Posted by: dobrzepolak63 on Aug 4, 2008 6:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything in the US is for sale. Everything and everyone. The only measuring device used today is the dollar bill. So, legalize prostitution. Legalize drugs. Then sit back and watch the fat cats enjoy their fresh source of taxes and income while everyone else starves.

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Legalization would help
Posted by: cypriot on Aug 5, 2008 5:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's similar to alcohol. We tryed to make alcohol illegal, and the result was widespread criminality and people dying from all kinds of poisonous homemade liquor. Now liquor is legal and most of the problems are gone. There is still a little bit of moonshine around, but most people want to do things legally. If prostitution were legal, the police could monitor the brothels to make sure everyone there was a consenting adult. There would be a law requiring condom use. Prostitutes would get tested regularly for disease. The police could concentrate their efforts on the few remaining illegal prostitution operations. Most customers would patronize legal prostitutes, to avoid troubles with the law. Incidentally, there has never been a case of AIDS in the legal brothels of Neveda.

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it could be taxed
Posted by: cypriot on Aug 5, 2008 6:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If prostitution were legal, prostitution transactions would be taxed, the same as any other service. Instead of absorbing taxes by arresting, trying, and jailing prostitutes and their clients, prostitution would be paying taxes.

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I thought prostitution was already legal
Posted by: 2dogarage on Aug 5, 2008 9:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Witness the mainstream press and many politicians for starters.

Prostitution is as old and ubiquitous as the tendency for people to think they should be able to tell others what to do with their own bodies.

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Women are expected to give it away
Posted by: billwald on Aug 6, 2008 6:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women are expected to give it away. The "public service" ads and commercials claim that a third of all adult women are infected with some kind of STD. The risk of going to an official house of prostitution can't be much worse than one out of three.

Most of you forget that when prostitution laws were first passed, shacking up was also illegal or at least a shameful practice. These days we pass laws against shaming anyone.

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L E G A L I Z E
Posted by: cyr3n on Aug 6, 2008 7:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Regulated prostitution prevents rape. Thus helping women who elect to, retain their virginity till marriage.

2. Legal prostitution takes the big bucks out of illegal sex trafficking

3. Its not the government's job to pass morality laws.

4. Helps remove the social taboo of women seeking STD screenings and taking charge of their sexuality

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