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New York Times Op-Ed: Israel Will Attack Iran

Posted by Steven D., Booman Tribune at 8:00 AM on July 18, 2008.


Benny Morris, a leading figure among Israel's "New Historians" movement, believes an Israeli attack is imminent.
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Author of Today's NYT Op-Ed: Benny Morris

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Yes, you read my title correctly. Today's New York Times includes an op-ed piece by Benny Morris, a Professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben Gurion University. He claims Israel will most certainly attack Iran within the next 4 to 7 months, and if conventional weapons are unsuccessful to knock out Iran's nuclear program, than Israel will escalate to the use of nuclear weapons.

By all accounts Professor Morris is no Likudist or neoconservative stalking horse, but a leading figure among Israel's "New Historians" movement which has portrayed the history of the creation of Israel and the genesis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in terms traditional Israeli historians deem revisionist and flawed because it claims to present a more balanced view of the history of the Palestinian conflict, one at odds with the traditional Israeli narrative of the "Palestinian Exodus" from Israel on the eve of the 1948 war.

All this as context for what is a deeply disturbing essay by Professor Morris, for his concerns cannot be brushed aside lightly as the ravings of a right wing Israeli figure, or as propaganda from someone connected to the current Israeli government. If accurate, the next President of the United States will face the beginning of his first term in office with a Middle East in flames with all that portends for the world. Here's Professor Morris in his own stark words describing the current situation as he sees it:

ISRAEL will almost surely attack Iran's nuclear sites in the next four to seven months -- and the leaders in Washington and even Tehran should hope that the attack will be successful enough to cause at least a significant delay in the Iranian production schedule, if not complete destruction, of that country's nuclear program. Because if the attack fails, the Middle East will almost certainly face a nuclear war -- either through a subsequent pre-emptive Israeli nuclear strike or a nuclear exchange shortly after Iran gets the bomb. [...]

But should Israel's conventional assault fail to significantly harm or stall the Iranian program, a ratcheting up of the Iranian-Israeli conflict to a nuclear level will most likely follow. Every intelligence agency in the world believes the Iranian program is geared toward making weapons, not to the peaceful applications of nuclear power. And, despite the current talk of additional economic sanctions, everyone knows that such measures have so far led nowhere and are unlikely to be applied with sufficient scope to cause Iran real pain, given Russia's and China's continued recalcitrance and Western Europe's (and America's) ambivalence in behavior, if not in rhetoric. Western intelligence agencies agree that Iran will reach the "point of no return" in acquiring the capacity to produce nuclear weapons in one to four years. [...]

Nonetheless, Israel, believing that its very existence is at stake -- and this is a feeling shared by most Israelis across the political spectrum -- will certainly make the effort. Israel's leaders, from Prime Minister Ehud Olmert down, have all explicitly stated that an Iranian bomb means Israel's destruction; Iran will not be allowed to get the bomb.

The best outcome will be that an Israeli conventional strike, whether failed or not -- and, given the Tehran regime's totalitarian grip, it may not be immediately clear how much damage the Israeli assault has caused -- would persuade the Iranians to halt their nuclear program, or at least persuade the Western powers to significantly increase the diplomatic and economic pressure on Iran.

But the more likely result is that the international community will continue to do nothing effective and that Iran will speed up its efforts to produce the bomb that can destroy Israel. The Iranians will also likely retaliate by attacking Israel's cities with ballistic missiles (possibly topped with chemical or biological warheads); by prodding its local clients, Hezbollah and Hamas, to unleash their own armories against Israel; and by activating international Muslim terrorist networks against Israeli and Jewish -- and possibly American -- targets worldwide (though the Iranians may at the last moment be wary of provoking American military involvement).

Such a situation would confront Israeli leaders with two agonizing, dismal choices. One is to allow the Iranians to acquire the bomb and hope for the best -- meaning a nuclear standoff, with the prospect of mutual assured destruction preventing the Iranians from actually using the weapon. The other would be to use the Iranian counterstrikes as an excuse to escalate and use the only means available that will actually destroy the Iranian nuclear project: Israel's own nuclear arsenal.

If this is the mindset of even a "revisionist" Israeli historian, a man who considers himself a member of the Israel's Left, than we are in a far more serious situation than previously thought. Perhaps Morris' account is mere bluster and sabre rattling. Perhaps, he is acting on behalf of those in Israel who desire to coerce the Bush administration into an attack on Iran. Perhaps. And perhaps the Times is allowing its Op-Ed pages to be used to further that propaganda effort. But we also have to consider that what Professor Morris is describing is an accurate assessment of Israel's intentions, and the mindset of a majority of its people regarding Iran.

Personally, I do not feel that Iran is as close to achieving a nuclear weapon as Professor Morris contends. Nor do I accept his statements that most "Western intelligence agencies" agree Iran will "pass the point of no return" within 1 to 4 years. Indeed, the last National Intelligence Assessment issued regarding Iran indicated that they abandoned their nuclear weapons program in 2003, and the head of the IAEA, Mohammed ElBaradei, has explicitly stated that his organization's inspectors have seen no evidence of any current nuclear weapons program, and that he sees no military solution to the concerns that the Western powers and Israel have regarding Iran's nuclear program. Any attack on Iran's nuclear facilities would be a "disaster" in his view.

Yet here we have a prominent member of the Israeli Left telling us that war between Iran and Israel is inevitable in the pages of the New York Times. One could hardly expect a more disheartening assessment of Israel's aggressive intentions toward Iran if this op-ed had been written by Prime Minister Olmert or his Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, who last week publicly stated that:

"Israel is the strongest country in the region and has proved in the past that it doesn't hesitate to act when its vital security interests are at stake."

His comment was an apparent allusion to Israel's daring 1981 airstrike that destroyed Iraq's unfinished nuclear reactor. Several top Israelis have publicly argued for a similar strike to destroy Iran's budding nuclear ambitions before the country develops a nuclear arsenal.

Israel's military sent warplanes over the eastern Mediterranean for a large military exercise in June that U.S. officials described as a possible rehearsal for a strike on Iran's nuclear facilities.

Barak, as you may recall, is the former Prime Minister of Israel during the last years of President Clinton's second term, and the head of Israel's Labor Party. In this context, one can assume that prominent members of both the Left and the Right on the Israeli political spectrum are committed to war with Iran should the U.S. fail to act. And so long as George Bush is President, we can assume that the United States government will do nothing to stop an Israeli air and missile strike against Iran, even if it now appears less likely that US military forces will be given that task by the Bush administration. Indeed, Bush has recently indicated he supports any possible military action which Israel might choose to take with respect to Iran:

President George W Bush has told the Israeli government that he may be prepared to approve a future military strike on Iranian nuclear facilities if negotiations with Tehran break down, according to a senior Pentagon official.

Despite the opposition of his own generals and widespread scepticism that America is ready to risk the military, political and economic consequences of an airborne strike on Iran, the president has given an "amber light" to an Israeli plan to attack Iran's main nuclear sites with long-range bombing sorties, the official told The Sunday Times.

"Amber means get on with your preparations, stand by for immediate attack and tell us when you're ready," the official said. But the Israelis have also been told that they can expect no help from American forces and will not be able to use US military bases in Iraq for logistical support.

If you get the sense that Israel and the Bush administration are playing with fire, you wouldn't be the only one. Doubtless, domestic political considerations may have something to do with Bush's posturing. The Republican candidate to replace him as President, and the one most likely to continue Bush's own policies in the Middle East, John McCain, is trailing Barack Obama in the national polls, and his candidacy is not enthusiastically supported by many Republicans. The threat of another military crisis in the Middle East could change that dynamic, however, as McCain's only strength from a political standpoint, his former military experience is still perceived by a plurality of the American public as making him more qualified than Obama for the role of Commander-in-Chief of America's armed forces.

As for Israel's current government, they rightly perceive that a President Obama would be much less likely to support independent military action by Israel, at least not until direct negotiations with Iran and the United States had proved futile and there was clear evidence that Iran was nearing the completion of a nuclear weapon. Even then, the appetite of many in America as to Iran's acquisition of a small nuclear arsenal can perhaps best be summed up by the views expressed by former CENTCOM commander General John Abizaid:

"I believe that we have the power to deter Iran, should it become nuclear," he said, referring to the theory that Iran would not risk a catastrophic retaliatory strike by using a nuclear weapon against the United States.

"There are ways to live with a nuclear Iran," Abizaid said in remarks at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a think tank. "Let's face it, we lived with a nuclear Soviet Union, we've lived with a nuclear China, and we're living with (other) nuclear powers as well."

The current Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, expressed similar comments at his confirmation hearing before the Senate when he stated under questioning from Senator Graham (R-SC) that he believed Iran would not use any nuclear weapons it acquired to attack Israel:

Asked by Senator Lindsey Graham if he believed that Iran would consider using nuclear weapons against Israel, he replied:

"I don't know that they would do that, Senator. ... And I think that, while they are certainly pressing, in my opinion, for nuclear capability, I think that they would see it in the first instance as a deterrent. They are surrounded by powers with nuclear weapons: Pakistan to their east, the Russians to the north, the Israelis to the west and us in the Persian Gulf."

Unfortunately, there is no clear sign that Gates' views dominate the current debate within the White House. And if there is one thing we've learned from enduring this incompetent fool of a "Decider" these last 7and 1/2 years, it is this: he prefers military action to diplomacy. At the moment there are small signs that the Bush administration is leaning toward increasing Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's pursuit of a diplomatic settlement with Iran over the Iranian nuclear program. However, I wouldn't trust this President to carry through with this new found affection for diplomacy. When push comes to shove, I see him as more likely to give Israel it's long awaited "green light" to attack Iran before the end of this year. To assume otherwise is a fool's hope, at best.


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View:
Political Israel shoots themselves in the head
Posted by: weathered on Jul 18, 2008 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
standing outside the gates to heaven they refuse to budge, demanding first that God identify and punish the assailant!

How do you say pathologic denial in Hebrew?

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Israel gains nothing by attacking Iran
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Jul 18, 2008 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
however, US gains everything:

1. Israel has to live with her neighbors, no matter. It is in Israel's best interest to form peaceful treaties with the local governements, just as it did with Egypt, back in the 70s.

As long as both sides get fair deal, the agreements will last.

2. Israelis have been pressing the government to negotiate with Hamas. Why would Israeli public want to fight the Iranians? Would they want to live with Iranian missiles coming down on their cities?

3. What exactly is it in their for Israelis? A nuclear free Iran? Unlike Iraq, Iranians have the knowledge of what happened to Iraqi nuclear facility. It is doubtful that Israel would be able to make any substantial damage to Iranian nuclear facility.

4. US has much to gain. If Israel attacks Iran, US would have a "motive" and "justification" to get in the war to help a friend. There isn't much support among Americans for a war with Iran, but there will be once a war breaks out.

5. Oil prices will shoot through the roof and oil companies and the military-industrial complex will get a windfall from any such adventure.

So who wins if Israel attacks Iran? The same corporations that are winning today.

As for Morris, the guy is a born-again neocon since 9/11. He has revised some of his own works and has critcized Ben Gurion for not doing a complete job of ethnically cleansing Palestinians in '48.

Morris is pushing the neocon-Likudnik line in his article.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: Damn Israel... Posted by: Axiom69
Tough Situation
Posted by: Axiom69 on Jul 18, 2008 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with terrorism is who do you retaliate against when attacked? 11 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis. The author mentions that Mutual Assured Destruction (aptly named MAD)would prevent Iran from attacking Israel when they do get the "bomb". This is most likely true. Unless a terrorist group with no declared nationality detonates it and Iran publicly condemns the action. This is the most likely scenario and probably what the Israeliis fear most.
Sooner or later terrorists will get their hands on a nuke. Whether they detonate in Tel Aviv, New York, D.C. or London the world is gonna get ugly real fast.

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» RE: Tough Situation Posted by: witchjug
I think Morris went from Left to Right
Posted by: Zenobia on Jul 18, 2008 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"By all accounts Professor Morris is no Likudist or neoconservative stalking horse, but a leading figure among Israel's "New Historians" movement..."

I think I recognize Morris' photo. He spoke at UC Berkeley about 7 years ago. And if I recall correctly, he was someone who shifted dramatically Rightward from the position that the author here describes. I remember people being surprised--and largely dismayed, being that this was Berkeley--at things he was saying because his earlier writings were more Left.

Don't take my word for it, as I do not have time at this moment to verify this with research. This is from memory. But do not take this author's word, either, without verifying.

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US to attack Israel?
Posted by: pbutler on Jul 18, 2008 11:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article implies that the US is on the verge of attacking its own vassal ("... a President Obama would be much less likely to support independent military action against Israel...").

The spelling errors ("exoerience", "compoletion", etc) are bad enough, but this sort of screw-up indicates that AlterNet's editors and sources are somewhere between overworked and incompetent.

Please - take a day off, hire new talent, brew a fresh pot of coffee, and consider how to fulfill your (very important) mission better!

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» RE: US to attack Israel? Posted by: Isaac Fitzgerald
» Nice try, Posted by: Nozka
» Ok, ok Posted by: Nozka
Armageddon...
Posted by: TJColatrella on Jul 18, 2008 11:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Armageddon..

War is stupidity, waste and ruin...

As Hegel said..

"The one thing history teaches, is that man learns nothing from history.."

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Israel will drag the US along
Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 18, 2008 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American soldier are about to die for zionist causes, again. Only Israel benefits from these endless Middle East wars. Iraq is the beginning. As we commit war-crimes in Baghdad, the US gov't commits treason at home by opening mail, eliminating habeas corpus, using the judiciary to steal private lands, banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon and Wikipedia, conducting warrantless wiretaps and engaging in illegal wars on behalf of AIPAC's 'money-men'. Soon, another US false-flag operation will occur (sinking of an Aircraft Carrier by Mossad) and the US will invade Iran.. Then we'll invade Syria, then Saudi Arabia, then Lebanon (again) then ....

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Israel Cares About the US-Not!
Posted by: Interested on Jul 18, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the USS Liberty? Remember all the billions of dollars that we have sent to Israel over the years? The Israelis are all for themselves and don't give a shekel if all the rest of the world loses all the Arab's oil and their economy shuts down. I spent several months in Israel and was shocked how socialized Israel is. They have a government entity that distributes the goodies from the US and other overseas Jews, while the Palestinians use to do all the manual labor for a cheap wage. They are spinning the US like crazy to do their dirty work with Iran, but don't think they won't use nukes if it suits their own narrow purposes. Scary.

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» Israel is a beackon of Light Posted by: AlohaTerry
Benny Morris a leftist??
Posted by: Anomalek on Jul 18, 2008 1:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know what crack the author has been smoking, but Benny Morris has beem widely reviled for at least a decade as an advocate of ethnic cleansing.

Not content with merely documenting the 1948 ethnic cleansing of nearly a million non-Jews from Palestine, Benny Morris goes on to justify it as both necessary and commendable. Morris has repeatedly said, more or less, that the only unfortunate thing that happened in 1948 was that the zionists didn't COMPLETE their massive ethnic cleansing (roughly a tenth of the non-Jewish population was allowed to remain in the areas the Zionists declared to be Israel). He has repeatedly said that this ethnic cleansing will need to be completed.

I don't see how any definition of "leftist" can ever, by any stretch of the imagination, include support for genocide or ethnic cleansing.

The author, quite inexplicably, describes Morris as "a prominent member of the Israeli Left" and notes that Morris "considers himself a member of the Israel's Left." The author says of Morris that "his concerns cannot be brushed aside lightly as the ravings of a right wing Israeli figure."

This says a great deal about what passes for the left in Israel, but is basically meaningless in any normal, rational context. You cannot support ethnic cleansing and the complete rejection of things like the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, and every fundamental norm of international and human rights law - as does Benny Morris - and simultaneously be a leftist, no matter what you might consider yourself to be.

Benny Morris is a zionist, and his observations should be understood as such - while he is a competent historian, he is also an ethnic supremacist and one who by his own words clearly has no problem serving up misery, death, discord, and strife to millions of non-Jews if he perceives it to be useful to Israel/Zionism.

There is no shortage of Zionist warmongers in the US media promoting an expansion of the already incredible US-Israel belligerence against Iran. On the contrary, zionist pontification on the inevitability of war with Iran has become something of a cottage industry.

I have no idea why the author or Alternet consider Morris to be an exceptional case in this regard.

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Benny Morris is really saying - obliterate Iran . .
Posted by: michaelm on Jul 19, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because surgical strikes damaging or removing nuclear facilities will ensure that the `problem` will recur in a few short years.

Better, then, to obliterate Iran's infrastructure along with the `collateral damage` of, say, 10,000,000 people so that a Stone Age Iran won't be a problem for some generations by which time, with the radiation having returned to near background levels, Israel's empire will have expanded to include Iran.

Or, so the fuzzy thinking of the smarties in Tel Aviv would have it - who are iron clad in judaic boilerplate of `smiting enemies`, for if there was any clear thinking they would know that any attack on Iran, big or small, will bring on the premature collapse or destruction of Israel itself.

For sure. The different ways that this will happen readers themselves can conjure up as well as i.

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Author is Short Sighted
Posted by: curiousdwk on Jul 19, 2008 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this article is definietly short-sighted. He talks only of the nuclear repercussions of an illegal pre-emptive strike by Israel. But Iran would react in other ways than trying to re-build its nuclear arsenal. It would shut the straights of Hormiz (sp?), it would send non-nuclear bombs everywhere including US bases in Iraq (which is why Iraq wants us to get the hell out before any such conflict arises), etc. The world's economy would be terrorized. But Israel would be smug watching the US come to bail them out for their error and of course it would provide even more opportunities for the US to set up its empire in Iran and Iraq.

I'm getting scared.

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Let's get our facts straight
Posted by: dhoa1 on Jul 19, 2008 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought that, by and on the large, this was a well-written article. I note one exception: Is nuclear enrichment being done in Iran for the sake of making weapons, or not? The article tells us both YES and NO.

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Reality Check
Posted by: ArthurTHimmelman on Jul 19, 2008 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We must understand that destroying Iranian nuclear "facilities" is not the central issue; it is the knowledge and expertise that resides in human minds that Israel would have to destroy, if the United States allows Israel to carry out this insane idea. Yes, Israel would have to kill the people associated with Iranian nuclear programs, perhaps large numbers of people. And, yes, any strike against Iran would have to have the support of the United States for military and logistical reasons. And, yes, without question, such a strike would unleash Iranian retaliation of a kind and scope that no one can predict, except, of course, that many innocent people would be killed and the price of oil would rise tremendously.

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Morris has always held these views.
Posted by: JamesE on Jul 19, 2008 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being familiar with much of Morris's work, I can say that, as a historian, he's very talented, generally honest, and comparatively non-ideological. In The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Crisis--probably his most significant work--Morris unsparingly details massacres, rapes, and general acts of terrorism committed against the Palestinians as part of a more or less systematic program of ethnic cleansing. Morris's conclusion is essentially that certain villages were strategically selected for destruction, with the larger goal of generating sufficient fear that the Palestinians would flee and make the work easier.

That's Morris the historian; however, he has stated in interviews that regardless of the atrocities he has documented, it's all justifiable. In fact, I distinctly recall him saying that "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." This seems to follow the same logic: while he realizes what a disaster military action against Iran would be, he feels that the perceived threat justifies it.

Once again, Morris is saying that anything, no matter how disastrous to the rest of the world, is permissible if done for the sake of Israel.

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A dream scenario for Bush/Cheney
Posted by: bettyn on Jul 19, 2008 11:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Israel attacks Iran, especially with nuclear weapons, it will be UTTER MADNESS. Unfortunately, it's a dream scenario for this administration: Oil could easily go to $500 a barrel with the blockage of major Middle Eastern ports. The Russians, Indians and Chinese, to say nothing of the rest of the Middle East, would be compelled to retaliate in some way. This could lead to the imposition of a massive draft and martial law in the USA. In short, it's WWIII, folks. And Bush becomes an Emperor in all but name.

Will we wish we IMPEACHED these clowns then?

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geoff
Posted by: geoffhutch on Jul 19, 2008 11:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iran is surrounded by nuclear powers. They are surrounded by the U.S.
Any attack from them would be suicide. They may be posturing tough in order to try and save themselves from western domination, but why would they subscribe to mutual assured destruction? There is no threat, save for our own interests. Live and let live. People are people!

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If Israel attacks Iran, a SANE US would back away from Israel.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jul 19, 2008 11:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is a pariah state already. If Israel attacks Iran, especially
with nuclear weapons, the United States should disown
any connection whatever with Israel, and would under any
SANE president. If Israel attacks Iran, especially with nuclear
weapons, almost all Americans would suddenly quit supporting
Israel.

The other thing that would happen if Israel attacks Iran with
nuclear weapons, is: Americans would quit being paranoid of all
things nuclear when they noticed that they themselves were not
dead. What a shock!

Religion is the only reason for American support for Israel, and
religion is caused by mental illness. America needs to be cured of
religion so that our foreign policy, and other policies, can become
rational.

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Religion is caused by mental illness
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jul 19, 2008 12:05 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is caused by any one or more of about half a dozen mental illnesses.
The truth about religion can be found in these books:

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger. Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.

"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." Science is a process, not a religion.

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?

"Atheism, A Case Against God" by George Smith

"God is not Great; how religion poisons everything" by Christopher Hitchens, 2007

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Religion is grand theft
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jul 19, 2008 12:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a sophomore undergraduate student in Physics, your homework in Probability
and Statistics class may include figuring out when the second coming would be
required, assuming that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when
would the bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in
1965 was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in
Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed. After 25 years, he
visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to communicate with his high
school classmates because the Hungarian language had changed so much. The
correct answer is less than 25 years. The first gospel was not written down until
50 years after the alleged events and then in a different language. The people who
told the story were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen played
the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-tellers.
By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the original. The gospel
story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before it was mis-translated the first
time. [Note that whoever wrote it down the first time was free to write whatever
he wanted to. The storytellers were illiterate and unable to check his written text
by reading it. Besides that, he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion:
There is no truth anywhere in the bible, and there never was. There is no way to
know what "jesus" or "mohammed" or any other such character actually said or
did.

ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion have
been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the issue.
Religion is an unfortunate side effect of having evolved from a chimpanzee-like
animal in a very brief 6 or 7 million years. "God" will not save us from the
consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact or a tornado because there
is no such critter as "god.". Ethics and morality are instinctive, not derived from
religion. Female instinct has greater force in morality than male instinct because
the female is in command of the sexual encounter. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of astronomy
which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from at any one
time. People keep inventing new religions [for the benefit of the "prophet," of
course] and forgetting other religions. ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis,
iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand theft, bunko type".

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» RE: eligion is grand theft Posted by: buddyedgewood
Israel has nukes?
Posted by: buddyedgewood on Jul 19, 2008 12:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Undeclared nukes? Interesting how nobody seems to care about them having them. At this time, Israel is the most violent state in the region. Iran may be posturing or they may even be covertly aiding terrorist groups that are going into Iraq - but there's no solid proof of this. The only state in the region that is actively killing people, on a daily basis, is the quasi-democratic, semi-theocratic state of ISRAEL. Gee, wouldn't that make them a rogue state needing a regime change? If we aren't careful and watchful of them, they will start WWIII. I can see it now, 30 years from now, it comes out that Israel was practicing genocide. Can you imagine, just like the swastika, the Star of David will be looked upon as a sign of hate? Now that certainly would be ironic.

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This AlterNet article is dangerously sensationalistic
Posted by: daniel347x on Jul 19, 2008 2:05 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is deeply discouraging that AlterNet would choose to publish an article with this framework about this hideous NY Times editorial.

Instead of chastising the Times for publishing the right-wing piece of pro-war propaganda, this AlterNet article actually claims that Benny Morris is on the Left. And it does so by selectively quoting from Benny Morris' editorial - leaving out key paragraphs, in which it is clear that Morris is not just providing a "sober analysis" but himself urging that Israel attack Iran. Two key sentences - taken from three key paragraphs - not included by the author in the selective quote:

Which leaves the world with only one option if it wishes to halt Iran’s march toward nuclear weaponry: the military option.

and

Which leaves only Israel — the country threatened almost daily with destruction by Iran’s leaders.

The first statement is patently false, and the second statement is also patently false. But I'm not posting a comment to dissect Morris' editorial. I'm criticizing the fact that AlterNet chose to post Steven D's article. Steven D claims that this is a sober, removed analysis of the Israeli situation. It is not. It makes specific pro-war statements that are strictly the opinion of the author.

A fair quoting of Benny Morris' editorial would reveal this, and the author gives a patently unfair quoting whose purpose is to make the point that Benny Morris is a removed, Leftist analyst reporting on what must therefore be political reality.

It was a clear and obvious, and important, target for the alternative media and anti-war activists to take the Times to account for publishing the piece.

However, instead of reading an article on AlterNet denouncing the Times, there's an article that takes the stance that the NY Times is an invisible, innocuous messenger publishing legitimate, mainstream ideas.

It's one thing to highlight and talk about the very real possibility of war with Iran. It's another thing to sensationalize the possibility of war with Iran, and AlterNet has gone way over that line. The fact that the NY Times chose to publish such a right-wing, war-propagandizing editorial was striking, and warranted a sharp critique from the alternative media, calling the Times out for publishing pro-war propaganda. AlterNet has failed in its role as "alternative".

New York Times, shame on you. Benny Morris, shame on you. And AlterNet, shame on you.

Dan Nissenbaum

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Just Who Is Going To Fight?
Posted by: TruthBeTold on Jul 19, 2008 6:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wonder if the off-springs of Joe Lieberman, William Kristol or Paul Wolfowitz will be signing uo for the military? The Israeli military that is, since they have never seen fit to serve in the US military. And you can just bet that neither Jonah Goldberg and the rest of the chicken-hawks and their off-springs won't be going anywhere where he might have to pick uo a guin and fight for freedom.

Fighting for freedom is for poor people.

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Why Can't Iran Have A Bomb?
Posted by: rgoalierob on Jul 20, 2008 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Israel has a bomb?
I'm just asking.

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Propaganda
Posted by: uncleeddie on Jul 21, 2008 12:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Propaganda surely knows no bounds when someone can can write an article calling Benny Morris a revisionist historian. Israel is a rogue aggressive criminal nation involved in torture, terrorism and general lawlessness. To still portray Israel as the victim surrounded by nations hell bent on their destruction is nothing short of bald face lying. Morris is a pure liar who only hopes to reinforce the propaganda that Israel is faced with imminent destruction. Anyone with a brain knows that if Israel or anyone for that matter who feels threatened with their demise will at least attempt to talk to the people who threaten them. Time and time again the Israeli leadership rejects negotiation. The world is closer to nuclear conflict now then at any time since the Cuban missile Crisis. People like Benny Morris and those who attempt to soften his image in an attempt to justify continued Israeli atrocities are war mongering voices for the New World Order. Next the author will write about Barak OBama being about change.

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