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More Clarity About Abuse, Intermarriage, Child Breeders, and the Fundamentalist Church of Later Day Saints

Posted by Sara Robinson, Orcinus at 2:51 PM on April 25, 2008.


Getting past the titillation of government raids.
rulonfull
FLDS founding patriarch Rulon Jeffs with his last two wives -- sisters Edna and Mary Fischer -- on their wedding day. He received the pair as a 90th birthday present.

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So far, the wall-to-wall news coverage of the state of Texas's raid on the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints compound in Eldorado, TX has been focused on just a couple of narratives. The first, of course, is the state's dogged and thorough -- and long overdue -- attempt to prove that the church's young women have been systemically sexually abused by the men of the group; and that this abuse is not just rare, but rather an inherent and accepted feature of the group's social order.

The other is the cultural curiosity of the sect's women in general. We see them, looking like they just walked out of the 1890s in their bizarre high hairdos, pastel prairie dresses, and sturdy shoes, and wonder how such a group of fossils (let alone tens of thousands of them) could still exist in modern America. It makes for great TV; but I often look at these women (most of whom have never watched TV in their lives), and feel like they're lambs being dragged out in front of media wolves they've never learned to recognize or fear. In a world when all of us seem to be in permanent rehearsal for our own 15 minutes of fame, these women are so unprepared for all this that they're downright fascinating.

These are the two current storylines the media is focused on -- at least, so far. In time, though, if the reporters and investigators stick around, they might find other things to talk about. A careful reading of Daphne Bramham's excellent The Secret Lives of Saints reveals that there are plenty of other questions we should be asking about the FLDS -- and months worth of stories we're not hearing about right now, but which need to be discussed and generally understood if the country is going to deal with the group appropriately and effectively.

And the country will be dealing with it -- probably for quite some time to come. Throughout its 60-year history, the FLDS has dealt with prosecution (or persecution) by seeding itself into new states, laying down roots for new communities that it can migrate to. (Eldorado itself started out as one of these.) New compounds are coming together now in Idaho and South Dakota; and there are rumors of others being staked out in Colorado and Nevada as well. Hildale/Colorado City may have been effectively taken over by the state of Utah, and Eldorado is in crisis; but with somewhere between 40,000 and 100,000 adherents, this is a group that's not going to pass from the American scene any time soon.

One of the things we need to understand is just how the FLDS managed to stay so far under the radar for so long -- and what twisted consequences were allowed to follow from that lack of oversight. Bramham shows that they did a stunningly effective job of building their own self-sufficient infrastructure of community institutions -- hospitals, police forces, courts, financial trusts, schools, and employers -- that allowed the church to function without interacting with the outside world any more than necessary. Most of the group's institutions were designed to mimic and supplant outside authority well enough to keep the group (and especially its treatment of women and children) hidden from the prying eyes of outsiders. And, for 60 years, those who were responsible for providing higher-level oversight for all these institutions have almost always been somehow induced to look the other way.

In the existing FLDS communities in Utah and Arizona, state authorities have already begun investigations on many of these fronts -- not least because they are the stuff on which further legal battles, and the future of the sect, may turn. However, keeping the FLDS at bay in the years ahead will require county, state, and professional authorities everywhere in North America to stop averting their eyes, stay on their toes, and show a strong willingness to challenge these attempts to build this kind of sheltering infrastructure.

And there are other, less obvious reasons we need to be keeping an eye on them, too. Here's the first half of my motley list -- a few assorted areas of interest I'd be poking at more deeply, along with questions I'd be asking, were I a New York Times front-pager, a TV talking head, or a public official in any county or state where the FLDS has set up camp. The list is long, so I'll discuss a few today, and then follow up with the rest by Wednesday.

For-Prophet Health Care
FLDS communities put a priority on providing as much health care inside the community as possible, so they're not dependent on outside medical professionals. (To this end, pregnant mothers have often been sent to Hildale or Bountiful in their last months, so they can be attended by the FLDS midwives there.) Hildale/Colorado City has its own hospital -- built partly with public funds -- that has employed only doctors and nurses who have pledged their first loyalty to the Prophet.

As a result, the group's women and children get much of their primary care from people who feel no accountability to established medical standards of practice, state record-keeping requirements, or any of the existing mandated reporter laws. (Most people in these communities have no idea these laws even exist.) The spotty record-keeping that results is why the state of Texas has made the wise decision to do DNA testing on all the kids: it cannot be taken for granted that their birth certificates are accurate (or, in some places, exist at all).

The FLDs has also co-opted mental health services into another form of wife abuse. In Hildale/Colorado City, FLDS doctors have proven quite willing to declare unhappy women crazy. Daphne Bramham found that up to a third of FLDS women are on anti-depressants; and that women who are express acute dissatisfaction with the life have often been committed to mental hospitals in Arizona by the community's doctors. According to Bramham, the fear of being labeled insane and shut away in an institution is one of the most potent threats the community has used to keep women in their place.

Of course, this misuse of mental health care has turned into one non-obvious but critically important cultural land mine for the Texas authorities who are trying to figure out how to deal with their FLDS wards. Along with everything else, they're trying to work with women who've learned to see mental health evaluations as tantamount to an incarceration threat -- are thus predisposed to regard gentile doctors or social workers as a mortal enemy. It's not making things easier.

Based on this long history, counties and states that find themselves hosting FLDS compounds need to be keeping a close eye on how these communities manage health care. Who provides it? Are they keeping good records? Are they following the law? Do they adhere to accepted standards of care? Are they holding the line as our first line of defense against child abuse -- or are they helping the community hide its abusive secrets? If the state officials in charge of supervising hospitals and doctors had stepped up and asked these questions decades ago, thousands of women and children might have been spared generations of abuse.

Cops and Courts: No Law But God's Law
Much of the power of the prophets has been drawn from the fact that they historically controlled both the cops and the courts that served the Hildale/Colorado City area. Though these were officially chartered law enforcement agencies and nominally public courts, they weren't concerned with civil law. Instead, their task was to enforce the law according to the FLDS and its Prophet. The people in these communities had no effective recourse to the laws the rest of us live under. They could be arrested, fined, jailed, and have their property seized by nominally "official" cops and courts, acting under full authority of civil government, for violating church laws.

Like African-Americans in the slavery era, women who tried to run were captured by these police and returned to their husbands for punishment -- or taken to the hospital for the dreaded mental health evaluation. The police force's main job is to be the muscle that enforces the Prophet's control of the entire community. When the Prophet decides that a man no longer deserves his home, these are the cops who enforce the eviction. Appealing to the FLDS judges has been useless: due process as we understand it doesn't even enter into the conversation.

There is progress on this front. The state of Utah began to move against the Hildale police force in 2005, revoking the certification of its polygamous chief. Sam Roundy admitted that he'd investigated over 25 sexual abuse cases in the past decade -- including one that involved the rape of an eight-year-old -- and never reported it to child protection authorities. (He pleaded ignorance of all mandated reporter laws.) However, Roundy was replaced with another polygamous officer who immediately sent Warren Jeffs a letter pledging his loyalty, and I found no word that he's left office since. Later that year, the Utah Supreme Court also disbarred the local polygamous judge, which paved the way for reform of the local courts.

But the Saints are now in many places besides Utah; and officials in these other states shouldn't be surprised if they try to hijack cops and courts and replicate this system wherever they go. In Utah, decades of failure to attend to this effectively deprived tens of thousands of people of their civil rights. It can't be allowed to happen again.

Death Among the FLDS
These communities also bury their own dead (and at least one has its own crematorium), which opens the way to record-keeping anomalies with death certificates -- and ensures that no questions will ever be asked, and no autopsies will ever be performed. Given the genetic instability and volatile control issues within this group, it may not be wise for them to have the means to dispose of dead bodies without official oversight. We need to be asking questions about who's in their cemeteries and crematoria, how they got there, and what kinds of records are being kept.

The Fatal Flaw: Inbreeding Takes Its Toll
One of the most striking things about the FLDS is that certain surnames -- Jeffs, Blackmore, Fischer, Jessop, Barlow, Steed -- occur over and over again. In a community of over 40,000 people -- many of whom share fathers, grandfathers, or uncles -- the degree of blood relationship between any two people is likely to be very close indeed. In fact, over half the people in Hildale/Colorado City are blood relatives. So it's not surprising that, starting in 1980, the tragic results of three generations of tight inbreeding began to appear.

That was the year the first Colorado City child was diagnosed with fumarase deficiency -- a genetic disease so rare that only a handful of cases had ever been diagnosed worldwide. The disease causes severe mental retardation, seizures, hydroencephaly, growth failure, and physical deformities. Two of the FLDS's old-line families, the Barlows and the Jessops, both carry the recessive gene -- which is now present in several thousand FLDS members who trace their descent to those two founding fathers. By the 1990, Bramham writes, the twin FLDS cities had the highest concentration of children with fumarase deficiency in the world.

There are also signs of widespread hereditary eye problems among the current crop of children, along with evidence that that the community has a higher-than-average infant mortality rate. Arizona coroners recently -- and finally -- got involved in investigating these. But there's plenty more here for public health officials to look at; and it's becoming clear that the custom of close intermarriage needs to end on genetic grounds alone.

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Tagged as: fundamentalist mormons

Sara Robinson blogs at Orcinus.


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It is an outrage
Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 25, 2008 4:26 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That so much time has passed with no action from state and federal authorities.

It has been common knowledge for decades about this situation; nobody would get involved.

This is comparable to the Soviet Union - where dissent meant a quick trip to the funny farm.

Many among us thought that slavery had been abolished in the middle of the nineteenth century.

Not so!

There are slaves in sweatshop garment factories on both coasts, tomato fields in Florida (and other agricultural areas), brothels nationwide, and closed-off "religious" compounds - not to mention the sweatshops in territories and possessions like Guam.

We need a nationwide effort to end this practice - now and forever. I would make it a cabinet level post and provide a life sentence to each knowing participant - from the driver, to the overseer, to the owner, to the secretary in the front office - along with complete confiscation of properties involved in slavery and forfeiture of all profits.

These women and girls are slaves, pure and simple. Some have become invested in that society, with children to support, no education and complete unfamiliarity with and inability to survive in the outside world - but this is simply another of their chains.

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» RE: It is an outrage Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: It is an outrage Posted by: SolarSiStar
Condoned Through Inaction
Posted by: GrizzleBee's on Apr 26, 2008 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is horrific to hear of all of the boys being thrown out and disowned once they become a threat to the men. The forced isolation and brainwashing of the women. The like minded subservience of outsiders turning a blind eye to countless years of abuse and neglect. This is an atrocity that has swallowed generations of innocents. The actions of those in authority are indicative of their true intentions. At no point is any of this alloted by freedom of religion. How ironic the by product of this isolation is not saving their people but destroying themselves from within. Inspite of their delusional entitlement God is very present in their demise.

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Let's not go overboard
Posted by: jolifam66 on Apr 26, 2008 11:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see one person has already commented the suggestion to make it a life sentence for being an FLDS member. Let's remember that in overtly and consciously persecuting the FLDS, incriminating both good and bad persons within, we are effectively abandoning our own freedoms under the Constitution. We have become just like them, or like we perceive them to be. The end does not justify the means. Mainstream society is guilty of many of the same things as the FLDS and gets worse with each passing day. Everyone should shudder at the thought of a CPS worker knocking on your door, knowing that they can terminate your parental rights on a whim, and turn your life upside down with ensuing legal costs and criminal charges. Everyone knows that in mainstream society there's no such thing as a "benign" psychiatric evaluation. It goes on your record and can be used to restrict your rights in the future, not to mention reduce your employment eligibility in many places just because you took the test at one time, nevermind what you actually scored.

If we think the FLDS are bad, I suggest we look in the mirror before start going apeshit commy/nazi on them.

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» RE: Let's not go overboard Posted by: Lector
» RE: Let's not go overboard Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Let's not go overboard Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Let's not go overboard Posted by: WickedGrace
Who pays to support Fundie Mormons?
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Apr 26, 2008 12:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You and I do. Their tax free status as a religious organization means that we make up the difference. Thousands of acres of real estate is free. Social services paid by the rest of us.

It's time to put the brakes on religious insttutions and their tax subsidies.

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Misleading conjecture
Posted by: jackyb on Apr 26, 2008 5:37 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the alleged crimes the author accuses the FLDS of committing actually occur in mainstream society -- only more so. Virtually every fact in this story is unsupported by reference or notes. It reads like someone went to the library, only to read conjecture, then cloaking as fact. It's outlandish hubris to suggest the FLDS members have to be perfect while mainstream society has its own ills -- to the tune of millions now locked up behind bars. Give us all a break, beginning with some objectivity. If you make a claim, back it up with evidence before you condemn everyone, much less pass judgment without due process of law. Someone's novel or biography is not evidence. Immigrants come to the U.S. because they're sick of the persecution from bullies in their home country. Some of us just don't learn from history, I guess. Maybe some of us don't read history.

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» RE: Read It. Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Misleading conjecture Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Misleading conjecture Posted by: WickedGrace
So long as religion identifies itself with what cannot change...
Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 26, 2008 5:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The notion of an "absolute" has played out in organized religion as being witnessed to by infallibility. It seems to offer a secure alternative to the common human predicament of wandering in illusions, as well as being overwhelmed by social and material developments.

I bless my parents daily for having escaped from such an ethos and rearing me in a liberal religion. I have been encouraged to find my own religious way--no simple matter.

Consequently, I feel estranged from any kind of strict fundamentalism. And organized religion is not the only place that can be found. Close-mindedness is commonplace, as evidence of racial prejudice makes clear.

The first time I read this article, I recalled several sad instances I am personally familiar with where taking children out of their home was unnecessary and harmful. However, when I read that evidence as extreme as a 16-year old girl with three children was part of the community in question, I realized that authorities had to act. I hope that all the attention will ensure that the children at issue will be not just protected but well protected.

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Yet another article on alternet condoning totalitarian repression by the government
Posted by: logansafi on Apr 26, 2008 8:18 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here it is, yet another article by alternet condoning the government taking all these 417 kids away from their parents and putting them in a foster setting. Some civil libertarians you guys are that make the selection of these articles! You people are shameful.

Meanwhile, the ACLU has finally begun to move and condemn the actions against this religious cult. Better slow than never.

While I don't think much of any branch of religious fundamentalism, they do have some rights, and one of them is not to be collectively punished by government agencies taking their kids away in mass, all supposedly (as per government story now) originally based on a prank call from a disturbed nut in Colorado Springs.

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» Here is latest ACLU statement Posted by: logansafi
Nature abhors a vacuum.
Posted by: bitsfick on Apr 27, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In time these closed societies like all the thousands before them will implode. The problem is that the rest of us will have to pay for their stupidity. What happens, when these socially inept, uneducated , inbreed children are unleashed on the rest of us? Who then becomes responsible for them? Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, by the same token, the right to live the lifestyle of your choosing, ends when you become a burden on me.

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» RE: Nature abhors a vacuum. Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Nature abhors a vacuum. Posted by: gazooks
» ***LAUREN HITS A HOME RUN*** Posted by: maribelle
» RE: inbred, oops!! Posted by: bitsfick
mental health services
Posted by: Lauren on Apr 27, 2008 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The FLDs has also co-opted mental health services into another form of wife abuse. In Hildale/Colorado City, FLDS doctors have proven quite willing to declare unhappy women crazy. Daphne Bramham found that up to a third of FLDS women are on anti-depressants; and that women who are express acute dissatisfaction with the life have often been committed to mental hospitals in Arizona by the community's doctors. According to Bramham, the fear of being labeled insane and shut away in an institution is one of the most potent threats the community has used to keep women in their place.

This paragraph sounded so much like my own experience I wondered if any of the friends and coworkers my husband consulted with was LDS. He was quite adamant that I needed to be committed (but later admitted he was also very wrong, he went back and forth regularly). I think our family was targeted, is targeted. But by who?

Maybe the Boy Scout who so miss-built our house so long ago was also LDS. I know he was big in his church, heavily involved in it. I don't know the answer to that, but lots of other people do. Hmm. . .

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» RE: mental health services Posted by: Lauren
freedom of religion versus human dignity
Posted by: Shakti on Apr 27, 2008 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not carefully reviewed all the charges against this community, but I think we should keep in mind that this country upholds freedom of religion. As a feminist, I am appalled at the stories of women treated as property and young girls forced into marriage. But as a student of the communal movement in the U.S., I am aware of other communities that deviate from the norm that deserve our respect and protection. What about the Amish? They have (miraculously) retained their values and lifestyle in the midst of huge pressures. Are the Amish women oppressed? Hard to say. Do we have the right to dismantle their culture? I don't think so. What about religiously based New Age or hippie-type communes? Should the government have the right to tell these folks how to live? With whom to have sex? How to raise their children? How to deliver health care? What if there were an Afrocentric or Islamic community in the U.S. who practiced female circumcision as part of their religious observances? Should this be illegal? (Personally, I would answer "yes," but you can see the ethical issues here, right?)

Every day, I see African American women choosing to cover themselves head to toe in black clothing (even in 90 degree weather) to honor their adherence to Islamic law. As a feminist I think this behavior is absurd (why would any 21st century woman willingly revert to a medieval dress and moral code?), but it is certainly their right to do so, and to raise their daughters in this way.

So, before we start making pronouncements about the FLDS, I think we need to reflect on the balance between human dignity and religious freedom. It is not always black and white.

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Inbreeding...you know like Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton
Posted by: wagadog on Apr 27, 2008 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"[The] tragic results of three generations of tight inbreeding began to appear...the first Colorado City child was diagnosed with fumarase deficiency... The disease causes severe mental retardation, seizures, hydroencephaly, growth failure, and physical deformities. Two of the FLDS's old-line families, the Barlows and the Jessops..."

I just knew there had to be an explanation for the way old George and Bill and young George and Hill act.

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If Goerge Bush....
Posted by: jackyb on Apr 27, 2008 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why don't some of you try to argue that if George Bush is convicted of a crime, then all Republicans should be rounded up? Any fifth grader can shoot holes in the nonsense spewed in this forum. People who believe they know everything have lost their capacity to think. It's why Edward de Bono said: "Unless you know everything, what you need is thinking". It's not surprising that those among us who have the most education are also the same ones with the least capacity for thinking. Most don't think at all, perfectly content to tow the line of their own cults -- all anti-family, anti-religion, and anti-male institutions. An animal in the wild is able to survive not because it has an education, but because it has the capacity to use logic to overcome the daily problems served up by Nature. Not many here are demonstrating capacity to survive when societal parasites reach critical mass for a Road Warrior world.

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» RE: If Goerge Bush.... Posted by: babs
Fundamentalist ANYTHING is destructive and wrong.
Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 27, 2008 2:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As soon as I see that word, I know it is about control, especially control of women and possibly the rest of the demonination. Even fundamentalist atheism is dangerous. And there is nothing more evil than fundamentalist Republican or Neocon. There is no fun in fundamentalism, except for those old men at the top making the money and getting the action. And is is ALWAYS old men.

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The ACLU opposes the illegality of government actions in Eldorado case
Posted by: logansafi on Apr 27, 2008 6:55 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"While we acknowledge that Judge Walthers' task may be unprecedented in Texas judicial history, we question whether the current proceedings adequately protect the fundamental rights of the mothers
and children of the FLDS," said Terri Burke, executive director of the ACLU of Texas, in a statement.

While the ACLU "deplores" crimes against children, Burke said that "constitutional rights that all Americans rely upon and cherish - that we are secure in our homes, that we may worship as we please and hold our places of worship sacred, and that we may be with our children absent evidence of imminent danger - have been threatened" by the state's actions.

Lisa Graybill, legal director for the ACLU of Texas, said officials may have violated the U.S. Constitution and state laws in how they conducted the raid and the subsequent custody hearing.

"The government must ensure that each mother and each child in its custody receives due process of law in determining the placement of the children and other matters regarding the children's care," she said in the statement.

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LDS not FLDS
Posted by: mike_burns on Apr 27, 2008 7:37 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I lived in a moron, I mean Mormon comumity a few years back. They are the sickest people on the face of the earth. A member of their church has to follow the elders. You will be excommunicated if you say anything evil of a elder. They often rape the high school girls. They can't say anything to their parents.
Let me expain something to you. Your job, your family, everything you have is dependent on the church. Mormons are not allowed to shop at non-Mormon stores, or eat at non-Mormon restaurants. Only Mormons can have businesses and jobs. Mormons get the first crack at any job. They will fire a non-Mormon to give the job to them. It is a LDS paradise. If you say anything bad about a elder, you loose it all. You have just become a non-Mormon.
We had to leave in fear of our lives. The police are Mormon. An elder can kill you, and get away with. If anything is anti-civil rights, their church is. They store up food. Why? The expect the U.S. Government to fall, so they can make our country a Mormon country. They are doing their best to get as many of their people in the federal government. We have tons of them in, now! They want to destroy us from within. That is why they use government assistance as much as possible. They call it bleeding the beast. They believe our government is immoral. It probably is, but not near as evil as what they would make it, if they could.

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» RE: Hateful, paranoid... Posted by: gazooks
» good reality check, sobering Posted by: stilldreaming
Sounds Islamic
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Apr 27, 2008 11:22 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They could always move to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Bangladesh. They'd fit right in.

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» how fuck*ng stupid can you be? Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
A better way?
Posted by: BST on Apr 28, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can imagine this article could draw rebuttals of merit by scholars far more attuned than I. My knowledge of this group is nil.

However, I abhor the fact that young children were stripped from parents and hauled to separate lodging. This is like the instances of illegal immigrant workers being separated from their children during a post-raid period.

Parents and children should have been relocated to adjoining areas under supervision, if that is what was needed, so the kids did not suffer the horror, fear and indignity of losing their families with one swipe of the government's pen.

From what I understand, the originating phone call of complaint has not even been traced to the polygamist's compound.

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» RE: A better way? Posted by: logansafi
unfortunately
Posted by: xenacat on Apr 28, 2008 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
much of what the particular post about Mormons discriminating against others states is very true of "mainstream" Mormonism when it is concentrated in an area. The poor non-mormons who come in contact with them have hell to pay. The dirty little secret is that the FLDS enclaves in Utah and Arizona could not have existed for so long without tacit approval of the mainstream mormon communities there. The FLDS case is not about religious freedom - it is about arresting a bunch of old guys who practice child abuse, welfare fraud and many other crimes as defined by U.S law.

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» RE: unfortunately Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
Here's what I find shocking
Posted by: tomkara on Apr 28, 2008 6:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As as agnostic progressive I am in fact more shocked by the willingness of this article's author - and apparently "progressive" readers - to accept a military raid on this community using tanks, SWAT teams, and machine guns (no resistance was offered) than I am by the allegations of sexual and other abuse against religious sect members - unsubstantiated by the article, and apparently so far by law enforcement. We have a presumption of innocence in this country. Have you forgotten? Apparently the "informant" used as a pretext for the raid was a 33 year old woman who is a phony, never a member or connected to this sect, who made up her story of abuse (exposed last night on NBC)and has done this before. The authorities are aware of this "Rosita" woman, and I began to suspect something fishy after a couple days elapsed and "Sarah" (now known as Rosita) was never found. The state claims that it has the right to take away all children in a "household" (in this case considering the entire community a "household") rather than focus on a specific perpetrator of a specific crime. It has caused enormous anguish by actions more worthy of the Gestapo, Stasi, or um, George W. Bush's minions. The fact that the women wear their hair in what the author considers a 'bizarre' fashion is irrelevant, and lets us know more about how intolerant the author of this article really is than about the thinking of the religious sect. It has always been strange to me that those who might tolerate free love or sex outside of marriage suddenly are outraged by "polygamy". Obviously, if there are specific allegations of child abuse, or specific allegations of abuse of any kind, these allegations should be investigated, but so far I haven't seen anything resembling proof, and certainly none that would justify the kind of fascist tactics employed in Texas. The author apparently believes the state should have the pre-emptive right to investigate any of us for not meeting its (and her) standards of social decorum. Wake up "progressives". You may be next to be devoured by the machine of social conformity. There are times when the far right and far left meet in a full circle, and embrace the same totalitarian tactics, and this appears to be one such case.

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» RE: Here's what I find shocking Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Well said, tomkara Posted by: gazooks
Religion = moral
Posted by: Grandma Crabby on Apr 28, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I hear one more religious type EVER say that those of us who do not have religion are automatically immoral for not being religious and anyone who is a believer is automatically moral, I will point to this story and then puke on their shoes.

The new movie, "Expelled" basically makes that claim. Ben Stein visits the holocaust museum, implying that the belief in evolution causes people to be so grotesquely immoral as to permit stuff like the holocaust. Now I am not saying these FLDS folks are as bad a Hitler but this is blatant proof that so much religion is merely a cover for slavery, abuse and torture of the weak by the powerful. I feel so sorry fore these women to have NO LIFE but what this sick church allows.

Religion CAN BE (but not always is) one of the most devious covers for abuse and control ever devised. I mean what a great position for an old man to be in, God WANTS him to have sex with as many young women as he can. Wow, I feel the spirit!!!!

Jerks. Take your religious piety and shove it up your ass.

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» atheists = moral???? Posted by: logansafi
» RE: eligion = moral Posted by: the baron
» RE:ligion = RE:ligion Posted by: gazooks
Terrytom
Posted by: terryton on Apr 28, 2008 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First things first. The decades of turning a blind eye, condoning, enabling and even cover-ups by the supposed proper state and county officials must be dealt with. I’m so tired of so much government wrongdoing starting with our criminal US president and the inaction of congress I scream daily. But I digress. There are so many corrupt people now in high office, seeking justice is nearly impossible. We do need enormous citizen participation. As an ACLU member I do see many rights of those people in jeopardy. There is so much crime and tragedy here it is boggling. To begin to cure this mess and to prevent its continuing scourge we must prosecute every official who shunned their duty. The harm done the children by separation is in my view matched by the abuse done by the parents and the repressive and thought controlling community. No easy answers here to be sure. I have a low regard for most organized religion yet I have the highest regard for personal liberty so I must respect others choices in their spirituality pursuits. Rape of children and general tyranny must not be a part of any entity claiming to exist for the good of human kind. How to separate the perpetrators from the brainwashed victims will require more understanding, compassion and knowledge than that of any elected official I have seen in recent history. What a mess. We have much work to do. I thank the Lord my mind has been granted so much liberty. There have been constant attempts to deny me that liberty.

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