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What Does Sex Have to Do with Marriage or Making Babies?

Posted by Amanda Marcotte, Pandagon at 11:06 AM on February 25, 2008.


I was bemused, and not a little puzzled, when I read this tsk-tsking article about "sexy" wedding dresses in the NY Times.

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I was bemused, and not a little puzzled, when I read this tsk-tsking article about about "sexy" wedding dresses in the NY Times. I'm confused as to why the Times has a slate of fashion writers that hate innovation, playfulness, and creativity--you know the very elements that redeem high fashion insofar as it's a redeemable thing. Here are the dresses they think are too damn scandalous when draped over a bride.

Click for larger version

Not a one of these wouldn't be considered a perfectly reasonable evening gown if it was a different color and worn to some kind of thing where you wear clothes like that. Considering that a wedding is probably many women's sole opportunity to dress up that much, why shouldn't she wear something that's appealing, instead of something that fits the image of the bride as a child-like virgin, fancied up for a ritual and deeply creepy deflowering? Wedding fans should be glad that the consumer culture has kept the practice alive in an era where people are increasingly disinterested in the wedding's traditional function as a ceremonial transfer of a female body from father to husband. But for some reason, the NY Times fashion section is fond of harumphing. Another writer there recently threw a temper tantrum when a designer dared to make men's clothes even a fraction as difficult, uncomfortable, and decorative-in-a-demeaning-way as women's clothes are.

Being pissed because brides are increasingly unwilling to play into the fantasies of those who enjoy saying, "Wow, she's so pure and virginal. I bet she doesn't even know what's going to happen to her later tonight. I shall cackle evilly now, because I'm a sadistic misogynist who likes his deflowerings violent," just made me roll my eyes. But of course, it got Rod Dreher all excited, and feeling empowered by the vindication of his deep misogyny by the fashion supplement of the Times, he dropped a time-honored slur right in the title of the post:

The bride's a slut. They call it progress.

He didn't get much farther than the opening story about a bride who wants the back of her wedding dress to dip down to buttcrack to show off her tramp stamp. Apparently, once you get the lower back tattoo, the gloves are off and Rod can call you all the names that he'd probably like to call all women. I have tattoos, so I suppose I should be personally offended, but I'm not really. I figure that the day I start doing things that Rod Dreher approves of is the day that I relinquish my right to high self-esteem.

But what really makes his post funny is this:

UPDATE: I just got back from the Ayaan Hirsi Ali event, which I'll be blogging about momentarily. But listening to her made me rethink my use of the word "slut" in this context.

Doh! For those who follow Dreher's blogging (though I often choose to through the Roy Edroso filter), he's often wrangling between the twin desires to demonize Muslims and his admiration for the way fundamentalists societies keep women under lock and key. Merriment ensues, if you like that dark humor sort of thing. But he's not going to let a little bit of feminist thinking creep in, no matter how well-padded it is in anti-Muslim sentiment. He immediately returns to demanding that women put our own joys and lives behind his desire to have violent deflowering fantasies at weddings.

I should be clear that when I said earlier that I missed old-fashioned hypocrisy, I meant that I don't really expect brides today to be virgins on their wedding day (though I hope that they are), but that I wish they would still honor the ideal by the way they comported themselves on their wedding day. Even if the couple has been shacking up prior to marriage, I think it's a nice and even necessary tradition for the congregation to officially overlook it in the ceremony, and if the bride proposes to wear white, then we all become De La Rochefoucaulds, and appreciate that she's honoring the old standard.

Even better would be if she carried a small whip with her and flagellated herself for having sex with the groom before that day during the ceremony. Even better would be if she let the groom beat her up in front of everyone for ruining his property values by letting him have access before he made the final purchase. Should the groom decline to beat his blushing bride for not providing him a hymen to break on his wedding day, the congregation could call his manhood into question. Fun for everyone! I love honoring the old standards.

On a related note, Diane Sawyer can go fuck herself.

I didn't know this happened when it did, but WTF. Because a woman does a book on her sexual fantasies, she's a "hypocrite" for writing a children's book? That makes no kind of sense. Seriously, what's the logic there? Shall we say that a woman can't be a mother if she's had sex? How does one then propose making that work in the biological sense? I guess the idea here is that women of course have to tolerate being fucked for god and country, but they can't allow themselves to have desires themselves.

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Tagged as: sex, women, sexism, marriage, new york times, clothes

Amanda Marcotte co-writes the popular blog Pandagon.


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interesting piece, lousy heading
Posted by: kenhymes on Feb 25, 2008 11:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting critique of East Coast upper-class sexual mores. (And remember that just because it is in the NYT, doesn't mean it reflects how most men think, the "provinces" have their own, unique brands of sexism).

But the heading, wherever it came from, is bogus. What does sex have to do with making babies? Well... everything. That's not to say that reproduction is sex's ONLY purpose, of course not. And I'm not trying to argue against equal standing for gays. But whether you are an evolutionist or a moralist, a denial of the origin of sex precisely in the need to make babies is just plain silly.

A better way of tackling it is to think about the analogy with language. Language undoubtedly started for survival, but has moved on to become a universe of creativity (and hate, and anger, and love, and control, and freedom). Or maybe sex (as an activity, rather than a biological imperative) is best thought of as comparable to fire: it can warm your house, or burn it down.

Anyway, the Alternet editors seem to be pretty tone-deaf generally, enjoying the act of throwing gasoline on fires, whereas the piece was interesting if pissed-off, so I'm betting the author didn't write the headline.

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attitudes about sex are grotesque
Posted by: luzmejor on Feb 25, 2008 12:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since I was a little girl I knew that women were supposed to be deeply ashamed of pregnancy because it was proof that they were not virginal.

In fact, women were still being kept in the house and out of public sight back then and there was no such thing as maternity clothing. Pregnancy was even called "confinement."

and yet... I recall the simpering way engaged girls were asked in public how big a family they wanted. Usually the giggling answer was they wanted enough to fill all the positions of some popular sports team or another. Naturally women back then had a baby every year, but not often voluntarily, because even talking about birth control could get doctors arrested. The Comstock Laws didn't get officially removed from state law books until 1967, I believe

We've come a long way since then, (1950s) but the old hatred against women always being pregnant remains. Now it is sometimes even more intense because the keepers of some faiths still want women punished (for being sexual) by pregnancy at the same time they want them to be happy to have large families, condemned to live in poverty.

And there, dear reader, is the crux of the matter. Other people will judge you and find you wanting, regardless of what happens to you in life.

Is there any actual importance to virginity?

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What's virginal, anyway?
Posted by: rwday@cox.net on Feb 26, 2008 3:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wouldn't personally wear any of those dresses because I'd look like crap in them, but for women who want to, I say more power to them.

Most brides aren't virgins these days, and haven't been for ages (if ever - I remember reading something once about how many women in Colonial America were pregnant at the time of their weddings), but I'm actually looking at this another way. So those dresses don't look 'virginal' in a traditional sense. Who cares? Virgin does not have to equal high-necked, Victorian prudery. Virginal is whatever a virgin chooses to wear. I know virgins of my daughter's generation who aren't afraid to allow their clothing to express their inherent sexuality, and I think it's great. Why should a woman be defined by whether or not she has a hymen?

Brides should wear what makes them happy. And what they can afford, but the cost of the wedding industry makes me froth at the mouth, so I'll stop there.

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a bride dressing to look hot, does not bode well for the marriage; it's the pendulum swinging to an
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 26, 2008 4:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
extreme. I hope my future daughter-in-law, if she has a biggish wedding, will look lovely and even desirable but not to the point of hardening every penis in the room. In the rampant exercising of sexual power, women can expose more than their cleaveage: self-centeredness and superficiality. If you can't dress for the man you're marrying but insist on being the star of a fantasy soft porn flick, then the ceremony sure ain't about commitment.

Isn't there's more to a woman than her ability to arouse? It's one thing to arouse someone who arouses you (discrimination) and quite another to "aspire" to turning on every grandpa and young boy present.

When men see anything sexual it goes straight to the groin. Sisters, get over it--it's about biology, not about you!

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» The Bride is HOT--OH MY GOD!! Posted by: munchkinpup
Yeah, but...
Posted by: goeswithness on Feb 26, 2008 4:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I certainly think Dreher's comments are silly and objectionable, in the large paragraph he's talking about pretending the bride is a virgin when we know she's not, which would actually preclude any of the things listed in the next paragraph - which the author imagines he'd also want - from happening.

Why go on a Limbaughian rant of your own, grossly exaggerating what he's said? It makes you look like a jerk. The word hysterical comes to mind, although I really don't want it to. The guy's damns himself by writing what he wrote. Expose him, and step aside.

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» RE: Yeah, but, You Don't Get It Posted by: munchkinpup
» RE: Yeah, but, You Don't Get It Posted by: goeswithness
NYT hires idiots??
Posted by: carcinoid112 on Feb 26, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They must. The extreme dreck seen on the runway isn't the next year's practical fashion for 98% of the world. It's a suggestion of what's to be adapted for use.

That's what the real world thinks, anyway.

As to the rantings of the suppressed libidos of 'newspersons', the extreme Puritanical mindset is a well-known literary device to portray impending insanity. Ask most of the rest of the world. They'll agree...The US is ruled by a bunch of crazy Puritanical charlatans.

Oh, how I miss the 60's when we thought there was a chance. Maybe we SHOULD have eaten the rich. A little youthful indigestion might have been worth it....

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Whats love got to do with it?
Posted by: dougii on Feb 26, 2008 5:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Huh? What?

I am kinda at a loss for words here. A reporting saying Madonna doesn't have "moral" authority to write a book? I've read the book. Its vapid and not very interesting, but she can publish whatever she wants. I didn't know we had to apply for a morality license before we wrote something!!

And for Brides, wear whatever you want. Be whoever you want. Sleep with whoever you want. Its your life, take responsibility for it and don't listen to shriveled-up cows that tell you something is slutty. Fuck em.

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Whatever happened to freedom of expression?
Posted by: Desire on Feb 26, 2008 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember in my youth an author named Judy Blume. She wrote for young girls coming of age, as well as books for younger girls. But when she wrote "Wifey", all of a sudden all her books were called into question. But that's the thing, her new book was not meant for children, but for adults who could choose to read it or not. An author should be free to write what interests them, YOU don't have to read it if your offended. What a stupid line of questioning Diane Sawyer chose to pursue. So what if she wrote a book on Sex! Her focus has changed as she matured. Madonna has childen she cares for very much, and was able to write for them(without mentioning sex) So what the hell is the problem.

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I want my money back
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 26, 2008 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You mean brides are asposed to be virgins?! You mean weddings are about sex?! You mean women get pregnant by .... ew... men?!

God dammit, I want my friggin' money back.

'Merkaans are such sick twisted hateful folk.

Weddings that require such attire are PR campaigns and stunts designed for the benefit of the wealthy aristocrat who owns the companies selling the "happy couple" the shit. Viriginity is about as useful and important as Brill cream. Rich 'Merkaaners who obsess about such assinine things, like the NYT and other urban bourgeoise, should just fucking go to hell. There are many poor folk who are happy to help them get there.

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» RE: I want my money back Posted by: munchkinpup
The Title is Off....and the Subject is Superificial
Posted by: bettina9292 on Feb 26, 2008 8:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok. Weddings are traditional ceremonies. Forget about the civil legal unions, that are definitely not discussed here. In Western societies,wedding gowns, have been traditionally white with off beige being ok for the "older" bride or the de--?? one. In China, red is the real deal. I like that alot-red symbolizing broken hymens,rising suns,future marriage brawls and (most recently 75 years)communism and Mao! I would prefer black, which is more thinning and provocative. Who cares? When you mix the "high" fashion of the big wedding business-you get some designers pushing the limit dresses- that only the rich and famous can afford. Less is more, yes yes and much much less is much much more. Soon a postage stamp, will be duplicated and pasted on nipples and vaginal areas and coveted as the new couture. Of course, we would have to go to a more white stamp with a smaller flag-so that fashion diva will appears more virginal ( and most discretely patriotic because in 2009 maybe the fashion rage will finally be "patriotism" with the new admin)!By the way have you seen the newest JC Penny ads and the Post Office ads for John Adams--eeks-You would think it is hip to be patriotic..American eagles giant sized on our chests..(good targets for all those who hate us!)
Remember, in the fashion biz, even a trash bag can be considered bling on a beauty. Sex sells. and too you all--we all wanted to see those photos in the article. Plus, at weddings doesn't everyone love too see the bride drunken and with just one nipple showing accidentally? How funny, the only ones not laughing are the parents of the bride, who can' help be so serious because they have spent such ridiculous money and they have to justify their debt.
Maddona can waist away all of her millions on promoting her mediocrity in other pursuits-who cares.. Maybe she can put her newest (illegally or legally bought??) son asleep quicker with her writings!

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Anti-choice much?
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 26, 2008 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...why shouldn't she wear something that's appealing, instead of something...I damn well approve of, that fits my perception of what I ought to drape her in for her wedding

No thanks. It really isn't up to anybody else to decide what she wears. Why not adopt a slightly pro-choice approach? It's her body, after all, you know...

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I don't get it.
Posted by: xenocyd on Feb 26, 2008 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was no "tsk-tsk" and finger wagging in the first article, like you claimed. I didn't see any sort of temper tantrum in the second article. The third link, to the blog, that was what you described. Saying F.U. to Dianne Sawyer is idiotic, some random person wanted to confront Madonna with that "hypocrisy" crap and Dianne Sawyer was giving Madonna a chance to respond to it, common journalist stuff.

This article feels way too reactionary, not to mention blowing things out of proportion.

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I went to my grand niece's
Posted by: willymack on Feb 26, 2008 11:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wedding the other day. She's pregnant,and her husband couldn't be happier as he obviously adores her, and that made it a lot easier for him to propose to her. She wore a pretty white, polka dot dress,and they were married by a judge. I give this wedding more of a chance for success than an extravagent, ostentageous and ruinously expensive affair, because everything that counts is present. My grand niece never gave any thought to an abortion. She told me that any child of her husband's would be a GOOD thing for our world. It's this mental attitude that is necessary for a successful marriage, in my opinion.

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» RE: I went to my grand niece's Posted by: munchkinpup
Amanda, crack open a thesaurus
Posted by: astockton on Feb 26, 2008 9:25 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So you were bemused, and a little puzzled, were you? You're also redundant. "Bemused" does not mean "amused," it means puzzled.

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As an MRA,
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 27, 2008 12:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just had to use that, because someone called me that on thread about another article.

1. The dresses: The one on the left is fantastic. Love it. The middle, is "OK". The one on the right: Garish, "bunchy", and tacky. But if the bride wants it, she should get it. It's a wedding, it's about the bride.

I give the same advice to every bride on the morning of her wedding:

As you are about to walk down the aisle, stop for a second, look around, and take it all in. It is the one time in your life that everyone's eyes are on you, you are looking your absolute best, and everything is about you. So stop and enjoy it, they'll wait for you. Enjoy that too.

Side note: I agree. Diane Sawyer can go fuck herself. If Piers Anthony can write both erotica and children's books (hundreds of them) then there is no reason that Madonna can't too.

Perhaps if she were an actual parent who raised children, she would understand that the sexual side of a person, and the child-rearing side of a person, can co-exist in the same person without being related (other than the self-evident relationship of cause and effect).

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Here's what I got from it...
Posted by: Graphictruth on Feb 27, 2008 12:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He (the self-styled "crunchy conservative") knows his views of women are hypocritical, and yet not only is he unembarrassed by that, he's completely unembarrassed to put out an expectation that others should be expected to adjust their weddings, their lives and presumably their actual life-priorities in order to make it possible for him to avoid having his annoying self-delusions exposed?

That's not Conservative, it's f*c*i*g PRESUMPTUOUS.

But then, the concepts have been fairly much interchangable since 1980 or so.

The most hiliarious thing, of course, is that he's closed the comments thread, saying that he will not tolerate "porn spam."

Do you think our good friend, Ducky Doolittle, dropped by and had a word at him?

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