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Duh, "I just sold him the gun"

Posted by Jan Frel at 9:19 AM on April 18, 2007.


Gun store dealer to Va. Tech killer shows little remorse

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Andrew Buncombe in Roanoke and Jerome Taylor, from the Independent:

If Cho Seung-Hui wanted to start a war, he could not have gone to a better place than Roanoke Firearms.

Five weeks ago, the 23-year-old foreign student entered the shop and paid $570 with a credit card for a Glock 9mm semi-automatic pistol and a box of 50 cartridges. He provided three different forms of identification and passed an additional security check carried out by the state police. The checks threw up no red flags. The entire transaction took no more than 20 minutes.

"I don't know anything about him. I just sold him the gun," the store's owner, John Markell, told The Independent, standing behind one of the store's glass display cases packed full of matt-black weapons. "He had a Virginia driving licence, a cheque book and a green card. Everything was legit - he checked out completely."

Yesterday, as this part of southern Virginia and the rest of the US was struggling to come to terms with the bloody carnage that took place on the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, 40 miles away, on the outskirts of Roanoke, the shop that sold Cho one of the two semi-automatic weapons he used with such devastating effect was open and doing swift business.

Mr Markell, 58, said that officers from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) visited the store on the afternoon of the shooting - the receipt for the handgun had later been found on Cho - but they had not troubled him further. There had been no suggestion the shop should be closed or that business should be suspended.

Mr Markell said that because Cho was a foreign national, he was required to have three forms of identification with him rather than the normal two. "We also rang up the state police. They ran it through the FBI computer," Mr Markell added. "He was here on a student visa."

The Korean student, who was majoring in English, had bought a Glock, of which several were on display. (One of the members of staff gladly lifted his shirt to show his own Glock, which he was carrying in a leather holster.)

But had he wanted something else, Cho - as with other visitors to Roanoke Firearms, which shares its scruffy premises with a pawn shop - would have had a vast array of weapons to chose from.

Yesterday, the shop had on display scores of semi-automatic handguns and revolvers for between $300 and $650. There were dozens of hunting knives and a range of various paper targets.

For the more ambitious, a Steyr tactical rifle for $2,075 had been set up on the counter, while on the floor lay a Barrett .50 calibre sniper rifle, similar to one used by the US military. Behind more glass was a rack of AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifles. A packet of .45 "dum-dum" rounds was offered for $15.75. Mr Markell said his store sold 2,500 guns a year.

The shootings have already triggered new debate about the need for greater gun control. Mike Males, the author of the book Kids & Guns: How Politicians, Experts, and the Press Fabricate Fear of Youth, told the Institute for Public Accuracy in Washington: "I cannot find another country where mass shootings are so common outside of war or revolution, regardless of their other characteristics."

But many people say the incident may also lead to greater gun sales as people buy a weapon for self-defence. Leane Anderson, a firearms instructor and gun shop owner, said purchases had soared since the killings.

She said: "I think guns don't kill people, people kill people. And I'm a strong believer in being able to protect yourself and your family. The Second Amendment [which gun enthusiasts claim affords them the right to bear arms] is very important to me. If it was taken away I'd be very upset."

But Mr Markell, owner of Roanoke Firearms for the past eight years, said that when Cho entered the store five weeks ago, his mind had not been on murder - even though he had filed off the weapons' identification numbers. He said he believed the student had bought ammunition more suitable for target shooting than for "self protection".

"I think that something pushed him over the edge. He did not buy that gun to do what he did," he said. "This was not pre-meditated five weeks ago ... You don't plan something [like this] five weeks in advance."

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Tagged as: gun dealer


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Wait a sec...
Posted by: Scientz on Apr 18, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, are you trying to say that the gun dealer should've illegally refused to sell him the gun? He passed the background tests, he gets the gun. That's the law. Your beef should be with the availability of guns themselves, not a dealer who simply doing his job.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Wait a sec... Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Wait a sec... Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Wait a sec... Posted by: bloggeddowninMKE
» RE: Wait a sec... Posted by: JSquercia
» Don't blame Dick Cheney Posted by: eddie torres
"I think guns don't kill people, people kill people"
Posted by: Russ Wellen on Apr 18, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And if Cho didn't have access to guns, he might have killed one person with a knife.

Besides a gun, latent with potential, whispers to its owner that he's impotent unless he doesn't just use it for target practice, but fires it into a living target. (In the absence of a bighorn sheep, a human will do.)

In other words, a gun may not pull its own trigger. But its very presence exerts a powerful influence on its owner to use it. Thus guns kill people.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» You May Be Right Posted by: Russ Wellen
» No, Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: No, Posted by: xbj
People kill people?
Posted by: Tran1992 on Apr 18, 2007 10:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People with guns shoot people. People without guns do not shoot people.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: People kill people? Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: People kill people? Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: People kill people? Posted by: ERicPott
People or guns ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Apr 18, 2007 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bottom line is that this guy looks like he weighed 130 pounds, wet -- he may well have been able to kill one or two or three people with knives or whatever, but not 32 without people stopping him.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: People or guns ... Posted by: xbj
» Thats the bottom line? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Thats the bottom line? Posted by: Techubus
» Uhh, just to be devil's advocate Posted by: fifthworld
Going down in history with "I was just following orders"
Posted by: xbj on Apr 18, 2007 11:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I just sold him the gun."

"I was just following orders."

"I was just trying to make a buck."

"The devil made me do it."

"The dog ate my soul."

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Let's end it all
Posted by: reidhaus on Apr 18, 2007 11:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have the US government issue every American citizen a loaded gun and declare open season on your enemy. May the best wo/man be left standing.

What a sick demented culture we've created for ourselves.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Kick 'em when their down
Posted by: Landbaron on Apr 18, 2007 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was a young guy named Bryant in Australia who killed 27 in a spree killing, his IQ was just low enough to get disability. All his life people called him names. We should ban all guns so we can carry out our modern day witch-hunts without fearing this.

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» RE: Kick 'em when their down Posted by: trampoline
» Well said. nm Posted by: PirateJesus
» Dick Cheney's IQ is much higher Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Kick 'em when their down Posted by: Landbaron
Ok, lets hear it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 18, 2007 11:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What kind of checks do you propose????

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Ok, lets hear it... Posted by: trampoline
» buddy system Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: buddy system Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Ok, lets hear it... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok, lets hear it... Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Ok, lets hear it... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok, lets hear it... Posted by: trampoline
» Wouldn't do much. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Wouldn't do much. Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Wouldn't do much. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Wouldn't do much. Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Wouldn't do much. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» WWSPS Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Wouldn't do much. Posted by: Ian MacLeod
"Feel sick I sold him the Glock"
Posted by: surfreality on Apr 18, 2007 11:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is the headline on the page 4 story of today's NY Daily News.
Did Jan Frel interview Mr. Markel? How did he come to his conclusion and why is it so radically different from the NY Daily News story?
Further:" I don't feel responsible, but I feel just terrible he used one of our guns."
Also: " The longtime sportsman... appeared so distraught that bystanders told him they were sorry."
Also, also: "With customers getting spooked over the notoriety and staff ready to quit because Markell keeps giving interviews... the chagrined gun dealer said he would likely get out of the business."Id sell cheap today." he said."
Sounds like the man feels bad about the consequences of being a gun dealer. Alternet's take seems less researched.

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I just sold him the insert-item-here leads to slippery slope
Posted by: bujak on Apr 18, 2007 11:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Using this sort of logic is flawed. Next you will be accusing the local Toyota/Chrysler/SAAB/etc dealership of providing someone with a car that they purposefully plowed into a crowd full of people killing 33 of them. no less loss of life. No less deadly. Most gun owners are law-abiding upstanding citizens that only draw their weapon in self-defense or in the defense of others. Just like most drivers on the road. Really how many news articles have you read that say Ms Smith drove into the office this morning and didn't kill anyone. You only hear about the tragedies.

To read about another Virginia College shooting that went an entirely different direction check out Appalachian School of Law shooting

You may also want to read Charles Riggs' The Parable of the Sheep for a different perspective on weapons.

You may not agree with or choose to carry a weapon but there are those in this country (the US) that do. Please respect their options.
'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." -Aristotle

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» Re: The Parable of the Sheep Posted by: trampoline
The Duh, "I just sold him the gun" drivel.
Posted by: mickey_cee on Apr 18, 2007 12:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Essentially, anything found in nature and/or every tool ever made by Man can be used, or converted to be used, to kill. It requires only the will and the desire.

The lies spewed by anti-gun people, especially those stating guns are intrinsically evil and will somehow tempt good people to become mass murderers, seem to be directed mostly toward their own fears. I strongly suspect psychological testing of those people would bear me out.

There is an allegorical story about a U.S. Marine General who, when asked by a female reporter if teaching young boys to shoot wouldn't equip them to become mass murderers, replied that, as a woman, she was equipped to become a prostitute, but that didn't mean she would become one.

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» expired ban Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: expired ban Posted by: xbj
Anti-wood-and-iron author offers two gems to be gleaned from the piece.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 18, 2007 1:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He provided three different forms of identification and passed an additional security check carried out by the state police. The checks threw up no red flags. The entire transaction took no more than 20 minutes.

Gem 1: The author leads us to consider whether background checks are useful, or if they are just a waste of time, money, and an unnecessary and unproductive infringement on the peoples' rights. Draw your own conclusions, obviously, but this author makes scrapping the background check system sound very appealing, at least to those who don't know a farcking thing about it.

The Second Amendment [which gun enthusiasts claim affords them the right to bear arms] is very important to me. If it was taken away I'd be very upset."

Gem 2: The author either can't be bothered to read the Constitution, or is challenged by poor reading comprehension.

Obviously, gem 1 is the more thought provoking of the two. Gem 2 simply continues along the "Duh" bend that the author began with.

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» 2 things Posted by: trampoline
» Ok, I'll bite. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Ok, I'll bite. Posted by: trampoline
not too fond of the quality of the article itself...
Posted by: studiosus on Apr 18, 2007 2:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
not really thorough, thought provoking nor well-written.
sorry

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Too many people
Posted by: vertical on Apr 18, 2007 3:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what? There are too many people destroying the earth. The more people dead the better. If only a couple billion people would die the world might bre a great place to live for man and all other life on this planet.

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» RE: Too many people Posted by: mickey_cee
» RE: Too many people Posted by: RevRick
» RE: Too many people Posted by: trampoline
None of the victims was armed in self-defense.....
Posted by: waitingforthefall on Apr 18, 2007 3:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thus....we have another sheeple massacre......go figure. I never spent an evening while attending the University of Houston-Downtown without my trusty Glock 22 with 16 rounds of .40cal hollowpoints ready at my hip.

Granted, Texas allows those law-abiding citizens willing to stand and be counted the right to carry a concealed weapon via permit, but college campuses, banks and hospitals as of right now are still off-limits in the lone star state.

Perhaps after this freak of nature's actions, legal and registered Texas gun-carriers will not have to fear expulsion and legal repricussion by simply assuring their survival on campus in a world slowly going insane.

Obviously, the kooks and the crooks are keenly aware of this as the rest of us are sleepwalking in a bubble-reality where extreme violence only happens to "other people".

This horrific incident is the extreme downside of globalization.....but had just one of those victims been armed.....JUST ONE......lives would have been spared.

Don't hate the gun people of America......hate the shooter.....

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» RE: Texas: Dark Heart Of The American Dream Posted by: waitingforthefall
» Just own a piece of the pie Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Texas: Dark Heart Of The American Dream Posted by: waitingforthefall
» RE: If I'd been there... Posted by: jimidee
» RE: If I'd been there... Posted by: waitingforthefall
» RE: If I'd been there... Posted by: waitingforthefall
» RE: If I'd been there... Posted by: trampoline
» RE: If I'd been there... Posted by: trampoline
» Mixed feelings... Posted by: guitrr
» RE: Mixed feelings... Posted by: xbj
» RE: Mixed feelings... Posted by: YogiBear
More important question...
Posted by: RevRick on Apr 18, 2007 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rather than asking the if the gun store owner should feel remorse, I think the more important question is how can someone deemed an "imminent danger to others" by a Magistrate and ordered into the custody of a psychiatric facility less than 2 years prior not "raise any red flags" when the State Police did their "background check"?

I thought this was exactly the sort of thing that background checks were supposed to look for...Even if they only spent 20 min checking. If that isn't enough to "raise a red flag" what would? Do you actually have to murder someone? Or is attempted murder enough?

We will discriminate against an entire group by kicking Muslims off a plane for no other reason than being Muslim, with a complete disregard for the Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion. Not even a second though. Yet we are so in love with the second amendment that we will sell a gun to an individual deemed an "imminent danger to others". Am I the only one not getting this?

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» RE: More important question... Posted by: trampoline
» background check Posted by: bookie
» RE: background check Posted by: jimidee
Defective logic
Posted by: Jammer2 on Apr 18, 2007 5:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry that the gun store owner has been taking an emotional beating for pursuing his livelyhood and making a legitimate living for his family. I'm sorry for the family and friends of the murdered students who were taken from us far to early in their lives. I'm sorry that the authorities are incapable of doing their job and that this young Korean man was allowed to obtain a firearm when it was the job of the state police to block the sale. The entire situation is devastating to all rational Americans, and the normal response is to blame someone in order to feel better about the event.

Most of all, I feel sorry for people out there that want to punish the gunstore owner for performing his constitutional duty in supplying firearms to the public. He did not write the law that allows a resident alien to purchase a gun, so why would he have to shoulder any blame? The defective logic that the blame-game people are using is bordering on sheer stupidity or a public demonstration that they really are mentally defective. If you don't like the laws, work to change them. If the rest of America tells you to shove your opinion where the sun don't shine, you know that at least you tried.

Don't single out a hard-working small businessman to make your uneducated point. That blame game only leaves you looking like the village idiot ranting that the sky is falling. Only a few people are listening to you and you are wasting everyone elses time.

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» RE: Defective logic Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Defective logic-agreed Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: I stand corrected Posted by: Jammer2
your tone is a bit unfair
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Apr 18, 2007 6:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard the NPR interview with this dealer this afternoon. He sounded very shaken and yes, remorseful. His last remark was (and this is from memory, not quite verbatim) "I'm sorry I sold him the gun, but at least I did it the right way."
What the dealer did was legal, and much as I'd like to see an ideal world with no guns sold anywhere, he isn't to blame for this tragedy.

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You have to be joking.
Posted by: Melvin on Apr 18, 2007 7:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Duh; I just sold him an F16!! Duh I just sold him the chemicals to make poison gas, Duh I just sold him RPG's.
It's not my fault he used them to destroy people!. I'm just an innocent business man just trying to make a buck!

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» RE: You have to be joking. Posted by: jimidee
Duh?
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 18, 2007 7:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another malicious aspect of this article is the title, "Duh. I just sold him the gun."

The author is casting the gun dealer as some stereotypical dumb hillbilly.

This article is not journalism by any standard, not even by the standards of FOX and CNN.

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» Not toyland Posted by: Melvin
» RE: Not toyland Posted by: trampoline
» Rushing in Posted by: Melvin
» RE: ushing in Posted by: trampoline
» RE: Not toyland Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not toyland Posted by: trampoline
» Yes but unfortunately, Posted by: fifthworld
Slingshots for everyone
Posted by: fifthworld on Apr 18, 2007 7:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think guns should be banned, but there has to be an alternative for all the monster-boy, unititiated, wounded young males out there: slingshots and pebbles.

Come to think of it, I'd like to see Israeli soldiers reduced to such armaments; you know, level the playing field, and maybe Palestinians would have a little better chance of defeating the chosen bastards.

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» RE: Slingshots for everyone Posted by: jimidee
What price human life in "The Land of the Free?"
Posted by: monkeywrench on Apr 18, 2007 9:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The horrible, horrible – and home-grown – tragedy in Virginia lays waste to the idea, one of Bush's favorites, that "we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here." As easy as it is for a nut like Cho, with a past history of craziness, including a 2005 arrest and his allegedly being declared incompetent (I assume that meant, "to care for himself or others," the usual terminology), to buy firearms proves that they are not fighting us here because they do not want to. If some terrorist wanted to create mayhem, all it would take is an airline ticket, a few hundred bucks, and directions to the nearest gun store.

The tragedy also lays waste to the idea that America can get along without a national mental healthcare system (what we had before Ronald Ray-Gun starved to closure the mental hospitals back in the 80's). The above-mentioned incompetency declaration, if true, might have resulted in Cho being sent to a mental hospital, and 32 innocent souls might still be alive today. Now, what we have is the inconsolable grief of thirty-odd families; literally hundreds of people in need of psychological support – which, most likely, their private insurance will not cover. We can do better than this, and must.

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anti-gun is anti-reality......
Posted by: waitingforthefall on Apr 19, 2007 2:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is no virtue in allowing oneself, one's kin, or one's spouse to be a sitting duck in a society awash in violent imagery, stress, pent-up psychosis and accessable weapons.

You cannot ban firearms from everyone any more than you can ban "illicit" narcotics from everyone. The deviant elements of our society will always find a way to get around the legal system that bans such illegal items so long as they are willing to pay the price of being caught.

Since psychotics and criminals will have access to firearms whether or not they are banned or more heavily regulated, we should assure the average law-abiding citizen's access to firearms for self-protection is preserved as a matter of personal choice and Constitutional privilage.

Face it folks, violence as a means of self-expression is on the rise in America. And as VT's massacre plainly shows, that violence can be very indiscriminate. Nice people who are not involved can be killed if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.......just like in Iraq, Bosnia, North Korea, Nigeria, Israel, Mexico etc.....America is no different except that most of our violence is entertainment compared to many other peoples who live with the daily threat of iminent death.

At the bare minium, this disaster should reinforce concept of the law-abiding citizen that takes responsibility for their saftey by arming themselves in a world of increasingly unpredictable violence.

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» 2nd and 3rd steps Posted by: trampoline
» RE: 2nd and 3rd steps Posted by: waitingforthefall
» RE: 2nd and 3rd steps Posted by: trampoline
NO SMALL MATTER
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 19, 2007 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The nature of the boy's mental illness should have appeared on the bachground check. He was diagnosed as a threat to himself and others. That information is part of the check. That's what was missing. A major mistake. But not on the part of the shop owner. It's sad to think of how easily this could have been prevented. People did try to intercede. To no avail. Thanks, ANNA

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