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MLK, Atheism and The Left

Posted by Evan Derkacz at 6:41 AM on January 16, 2007.


A quick thought...
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Get used to thinking of Christians as sisters and brothers.

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Today, Martin Luther King Jr. Day, is a great opportunity for progressives and liberals to recall the pluralism of the Leftist tradition in America.

Dr. King, as you well know, was a devout Christian whose beliefs drove his revolutionary and effective method for changing America's social fabric.

The recent embrace of non-pluralistic atheism exemplified by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins doesn't serve the Left (or atheism) well and I doubt that many who seek validation in the duo's antagonism toward religion would consider King simplistic, nonthinking, weak or an apologist for the transgressions of this co-religionists.

When Dawkins says things like "I doubt that religion can survive deep understanding. The shallows are its natural habitat," and "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world," I am quite sure he does NOT mean King or a number of other thinkers whose belief has driven them to do good, to search for answers wherever they lie, to accept those with different beliefs.

The problem is the wideness of Dawkins' net which necessarily catches the good with the bad -- to the detriment of his argument, not to mention possible allegiances and the American ideal of a pluralistic society.

From an early King essay on his religious development:

It is quite easy for me to think of a God of love mainly because I grew up in a family where love was central and where lovely relationships were ever present.

My parents would always tell me that I should not hate the white man, but that it was my duty as a Christian to love him.

Even though I have never had an abrupt conversion experience, religion has been real to me and closely knitted to life. In fact the two cannot be separated; religion for me is life.

You don't have to believe in it yourself to respect that it is a Truth. Welcome to the post-modern era.

Joshua, take it away...

Joshua adds …

Thanks, Ev. Happy MLK day!

There’s much I might say about this post. Certainly its subtle message -- MLK was religious and most lefties liked him --- is inescapable.

And anything written broadly of “The Left” always has a certain entertainment value, if only because “The Left” is like a herd of cats going in all directions at once (and atheism -- and the traits commonly associated with its adherents -- isn’t the exclusive domain of any one ideological camp).

I could point out that nobody argues that everyone who believes in God is a bad person, or that religious thought cannot, or has not, been the basis of some of the most powerful social justice movements in history. I could also note how rarely Dawkins’ critics (I haven’t read Harris), so frequently fail to address his actual arguments, preferring to focus on his style, or his value (or lack thereof) as a leading figure of atheism, or the danger of some ill-defined "pendulum" swinging too far towards a dogmatic brand of atheism or any of a dozen other gripes.

But, instead, I’ll just quote another great thinker -- the man who urged us never to panic and to always know where our towels are -- Douglas Adams, as he explains why people like Dawkins elicit the kind of criticism they do [ht: Dawkins himself] …

Religion … has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, ‘Here is an idea or a notion that you’re not allowed to say anything bad about; you’re just not. Why not? -- because you’re not!’ If somebody votes for a party that you don’t agree with, you’re free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody feels aggrieved about it. If somebody thinks taxes should go up or down you are free to have an argument about it. But on the other hand if somebody says ‘I mustn’t move a light switch on a Saturday’, you say ‘I respect that’.

Why should it be that it’s perfectly legitimate to support the Labour Party or the Conservative Party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows -- but to have an opinion about how the universe began, about who created the Universe … no, that’s holy? … We are used to not challenging religious ideas but it’s very interesting how much of a furore [Dawkins] creates when he does it! Everybody gets absolutely fanatic about it because you’re not allowed to say these things. Yet when you look at it rationally there is no reason why those ideas shouldn’t be as open to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn’t be.

Back to Evan....

Adams' quote is the same old strawman BS. Holding up the way some religious people comport themselves to knock down the whole of it.

Never you mind about the individual arguments... we'll let Alister McGrath deal with that on the pages of AlterNet this week.

By the way -- and this is directed as much to the commenter below who asks about discrediting Dawkins as to Joshua: Alister McGrath, Oxford Theologian and Biochemist, was interviewed extensively for Dawkins' documentary, The Root of All Evil, providing rebuttals on each of Dawkins' major points.

Go on and ask how much screen time the "seeker of truth" gave to Dr. McGrath...

None.

Joshua adds, stubbornly ...

Or at least we know how much screen time the Channel Four producers and/or editors gave McGrath. The video is reportedly balanced, with four "pro-Dawkins" interviewees and four who are "anti-Dawkins."

I haven't seen the film, but according to IMDB, Dawkins hated the title, "The Root of All Evil," arguing that it's silly to suggest that anything, religion included, can accurately be described as such.

Sorry Josh ...

The film was written and directed by Dawkins. To have excluded his most prominent, well-respected critic without mention just doesn't fly. I'm shocked at your lack of skepticism in this particular case.

McGrath wrote a book called "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and The Meaning of Life." If the interview with his nemesis were cut against Dawkins' wishes I'd expect a disclaimer and/or some comment on it, if only to forestall the eyebrow raising of critics....

Digg!

Tagged as: god, dawkins, civil rights, recruit, sam harris, atheism, mlk

Evan Derkacz is an AlterNet editor. He writes and edits PEEK, the blog of blogs.


Fox, CNN, CBS Reaction Groups: Obama Won
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Post by Staff. October 7, 2008.

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uh, yeah...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jan 15, 2007 12:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I doubt that religion can survive deep understanding. The shallows are its natural habitat," and "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world,"

Yes.. the shallows of understanding.. much like painting all religion and all believers with the same brush in such broad statements.

My problem isn't with atheism.. it is with intollerance.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: uh, yeah... Posted by: Xynyx
Rev. William Slone Coffin died
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jan 15, 2007 12:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this past year, but no one remembers him and there is no state-sanctioned quasi-religious holiday on his behalf. He would have wanted it that way. One wonders if MLK Jr himself would appreciate the deification he, at the promotion of the media and his estate (which, interestingly sues people over improper display of his speeches), received post-mortem. One doubts he would have, but we'll never know due to his tragic murder. But anyway, I guess all the statue makers and road-sign producers need to earn a living- and they have done much business putting signs and statues of the new deity.

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» RE: ev. William Slone Coffin died Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: ev. William Slone Coffin died Posted by: JoshuaLudd
MLK's interpretation of Christianity was good . . . however . . .
Posted by: JayMagoo on Jan 15, 2007 12:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Martin Luther King, as with all Christians, bought a complete mythological system that had with it songs, paintings, churches, scripture, prayers, rituals, etc., and like most Christians he bought it completely and totally without reservation. After all, it provided him and his father before him with a nice living. It made no difference that there is not a shred of evidence anywhere, at any time, that any of the stuff King believed in, or that any other Christians believe in, was true. Not a shred, not a whisper, not an grain of evidence. There were plenty who were and are willing to swear up and down that "God" and "Jesus" exist and existed, but their say-so is merely that -- their say-so.

It's all in their imaginations. Every last bit of it, and it exists no where else.

That is not to say King wasn't a good man. He was a spectacuilarly good man. He fought to overcome a lot of the bigotry that other Christians try to justify, some by their own interpretation of religion.

I don't understand why there is now a campaign to discredit Dawkins. Perhaps because Christians are made uncomfortable by some of Dawkins observations, and their discomfort comes from the accuracy of Dawkins' statements.

But it's all too obvious to be taken seriously. Dawkins is right. Shallow minds find it easy to accept the mythological systems of Christianity because it's already packeged and ready to use. It requires no deep thought.

We atheists have been hearing manufactured criticisms from the Christian community, both left and right wing, for many, many years. They don't seem to change, and they all seem to be from a bunker mentality the Christians have. The mere presence of Atheists who challenge the fundamental myths of Christianity seem to prompt those Christians to retaliate. Pathetic, but I guess it goes on and will continue to go on as long as they feel threatened by our challenges to them to think for themselves.

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» YUP. Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: YUP. Posted by: JayMagoo
» Need A Bigger Shovel? Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Need A Bigger Shovel? Posted by: JayMagoo
» RE: Need A Bigger Shovel? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Need A Bigger Shovel? Posted by: JayMagoo
» RE: Need A Bigger Shovel? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: YUP. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Fascism and religion Posted by: Lasse
» Fundamental flaw here... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Fundamental flaw here... Posted by: BobWilson
» RE: Fundamental flaw here... Posted by: MatthewSavage
False Dichotomy
Posted by: RevRick on Jan 15, 2007 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a false dichotomy being advanced by people like Richard Dawkins on one side and people like Pat Robertson on the other. These people want us to believe that we have to choose between the absolute belief that God exists and the absolute belief that God doesn’t exist. However like most debates regarding belief it isn’t black and white there are numerous shades of grey.

I would suggest reading the Wikipedia entries for both atheism and for agnosticism. Depending on who you ask there is overlap between what some would consider atheism and agnosticism.

I personally consider myself an agnostic. When people ask me what that means I tell them, “Absence of proof is not proof of absence; I believe that knowledge of the existence of ‘God’ is unknowable to us. If I live my life trying my best to do what is good and right then a benevolent deity will judge me accordingly regardless of my belief or my worship.” The most common response I receive to this explanation is “Most people are probably agnostics then.”

Perhaps those of us on the “left” who consider ourselves “soft atheists” should consider the term “agnostic” to both differentiate ourselves from the Dawkins of the world but also because it is a better way to begin an honest dialogue about belief with the average American.

Reverend Rick
Taoist/Agnostic

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» RE: Actually ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» How, then... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How, then... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How, then... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How, then... Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: How, then... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How, then... Posted by: RevRick
» RE: How, then... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How, then... Posted by: themotie
» RE: How, then... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How, then... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How, then... Posted by: fixitt
» Who Is This God, "Science"? Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Actually ... Posted by: RevRick
» RE: Actually ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» As long as we're rambling ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: As long as we're rambling ... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: As long as we're rambling ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: As long as we're rambling ... Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: As long as we're rambling ... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» What? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What? Posted by: BobWilson
» Also, Holland... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Nope. Don't care ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Nope. Don't care ... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Nope. Don't care ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Nope. Don't care ... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Let's get this straight ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Let's get this straight ... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Let's get this straight ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Nope. Don't care ... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: False Dichotomy Posted by: mum.rocks
Well said, Evan,
Posted by: Robba29 on Jan 15, 2007 1:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You bring up some very good points. There is a lot of research into different types of religious experience--and two types: "Quest" or "Mature" experiences (taken from two different papers I've read on the subject) allow for the person understand others' points of view while those who hold their experience to be concrete and unassailable do not. I would put MLK in the former category by far and Falwell and his ilk in the latter. Anyway, Susan Jacoby in "Freethinkers" does a great job examining the relationship and cooperation between the Black Christian churches in the South and more secular (and sometime atheist) activists from the North. They worked well with each other and never had conflicts due to different religious views. There was an understanding of common cause and morality.

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» RE: Well said, Evan, Posted by: PEEK
I expect...
Posted by: Bbear41 on Jan 15, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...there are as many atheists on the right as on the left. Right wing atheists don't admit it because religion is useful to keep The rabel in line

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» Plus ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Plus ... Posted by: RevRick
» RE: Plus ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Plus ... Posted by: kittynboi
» So how is that misidentification? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Leadership Posted by: kittynboi
Socrates died for our sins.
Posted by: gazooks on Jan 15, 2007 2:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I can tell, (which is inherently limited), both sets of believers that insist that they are absolutely right, can be nothing but absolutely wrong. They seem to want to the comfort of knowing that which we're incapable of knowing, then piss away energy and resources defending institutions based on (your truth here) and killing off or enslaving the opposition if circumstances permit.

I see no real difference between the likes of the Falwell's and the Dawkin's aside from the relative numbers and the relative harm that they do to fostering wonder at a very mysterious existence.

Socrates died for our sins.

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» Amen, brother... nm Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Happy Dawkins-bashing day
Posted by: pbutler on Jan 15, 2007 3:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evan Derkacz, would it really be that much trouble to see whatever Dawkins and teh atheists have actually said about MLK before bashing them about it? Maybe even look up what King himself might have said about freethinkers? (I’m too tired to do it for you at the moment, in large part from marching in a King parade today with the local Veterans for Peace chapter.)

I try to imagine a meeting of King and Dawkins, and realize that I'm in way over my head in trying to conceive what either might say to the other. Nonetheless, I'm sure it wouldn't be the reflexive scoffing that you project on Dawkins, nor the whiny and category-confused gratuitous tantrum posted here.

In fact, I’m fairly sure they’d find major areas of agreement, perhaps to the point of collaboration. Do you think they’d rather throw hissy fits than, say, discuss ways to improve schooling or end the slaughter in southwest Asia?

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Faith Without Works IS Dead
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 15, 2007 3:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Something that the NeoCon Bible Thumpers seem to forget is that quote from the Bible. It is very telling that the same people who wrap themselves in the flag carrying a Bible push ever increasing tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of social welfare programs designed to help those at the margins and in need. I'm not going to judge them- but my bet is that Jesus would not consider them his followers.

The whole thing boils down to this: if you lead your life in the moral and ethical manner represented by Jesus Christ you will not have to tell people that you are a Christian. You will serve others, care for the poor, needy and downtrodden, extend grace to even the graceless and mercy to the merciless. You will put people before material wealth and not be greedy. Doesn't sound like the NeoCon agenda to me.

Jesus was harshest with the religious leaders of the day- calling them whitewashed tombstones because their actions did not match their words and they knew better.

MLK resonated with people because he lived his life seeking the very things that all Christ Followers are instructed to do. He didn't have to tell you what his faith was because his work spoke volumes and granted his words a moral authority money cannot buy.

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» Jesus himself something of a hypocrite Posted by: stormchilde1975
MLK and religion
Posted by: jkiel on Jan 15, 2007 5:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FTR, I think "Marty" picked-up most of his ideas about nonviolence from Ghandi, and Bhudda (Bhuddism), not Xtianity. Listen to his "Beyond Vietnam" speech.
(At their core, Judaism, Xtianity, and Islam are all violence-based. Don't believe it? Read their 'holy books.')

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» except Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: MLK and religion Posted by: Gcat
blah blah,blah blah
Posted by: ebliso on Jan 15, 2007 6:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yah sure, without being a believer in ridiculous mythology, I'm sure MLK Jr. wouldn't have done anything . It's only through a heartfelt belief in the absurd 2,000+ year old writings of nomadic tribes from the middle east that he was able to accomplish anything at all. If not for an astute ability to selectively quote from this book in a manner which supported his cause, he might've argued the exact opposite using the same book. I am sooooooooo friggin tired of this constant back and forth with people whose lives are mythology-based! You know , as well as anyone else that that book can be used to support everything from a denial of equal rights to GLBT people, to a support of slavery , to supporting public excecution of children who are rude or disrespectful as easily as it can be used to argue for peace and inclusion and love. I mean , really! Get off it already! The only thing that religious mythology did for MLK was to teach him how to be an effective public speaker who used poetic illusions to evoke an emotional response.
It's just sad and creepy and weird to write a snarky little diatribe about how this one man's use of religion to help people is some sort of validation of that mythology. It's not. Christianity is a mythology based on the disparate ramblings of people who were ignorant of the physical laws which govern our universe. I suppose one might say that it's only because g-d cried and made rainbows that we had the rainbow coalition . Ugh! I just wish adults would start acting like it and get off this whole myth-based train they want to run our country over with. There is no Santa Claus, there is no Easter Bunny, and there is no omnipotent creature who created the world and listens to you when you want something. There is no "animating force" , there is no divinity, there is no g-d except in the minds of those who are too frightened of reality to face it unarmed . To all the adults out there in mytho-wingnut land, grow up and wake up...your deeply held belief in the absurd is helping destroy lives and wreck the planet with war and religio-based stryfe. GROW UP and get on with it. Life without myth is just as fascinating and beautiful and moral and interesting. Give up on the lie , already, you're supposed to be adults!

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» RE: blah blah,blah blah Posted by: PEEK
No need to imagine "Love your enemy;" just look at King's life.
Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 15, 2007 7:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Magoo says "every last bit of it" ("it" being faith) is fantasy. That's called "cheap realism," a simple-minded rejection of "cheap faith." We can all reject cheap faith without throwing the baby out with the bath.

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Belief as Truth or as a way to reach people where they live
Posted by: asilsfable on Jan 15, 2007 7:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It all depends on how you use your beliefs to justify your actions. Religion was a tool used in the hand of a master in reference to MLK. And I believe he knew that and was actively aware of that.

MLK sculpted a social agenda and then used his extensive knowledge of Christianity to frame an argument for the various political positions he championed. There is far more evidence of violence in the Judeo-Christian bible than acts of non-violence. Yet, he argued that turning the cheek was as Christian as defiance of inequality.

I do believe that MLK was intelligent enough to realize that faith is a driving force and a place people to look to for answers (like oracles during Greek times). To have a command of that knowledge and to use it in order to have others question their positions about long held and pervasive 'beliefs/truths' was his special gift.

I don't think it was lost on him that he relied on the same source that others once used to justify slavery!

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Can we stop catigating by categories?
Posted by: dbrown on Jan 15, 2007 8:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Face it: We know that there are good and bad people in every one of our treasured categories--including those who are religious and those who are not. Further, it should be fairly obvious that the goodness or evil of a person does not necessarily demonstrate the validity or invalidity of his or her religous or non-religious worldview. Indeed, about the only things we can know for a reasonable certainty is that those who say "atheism destroys meaning in life and denies a basis for morality" are clearly wrong and---get ready, "religions are always and in every case mindless, useless, sources of intolerance." And if we can get over these diatribes, we can get on with some more important discussions, of which there are plenty.

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Have any of you people actually read Dawkins?
Posted by: unitedstatesofstupidity on Jan 15, 2007 11:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are clearly people, like Martin Luther King Jr., who were both religious and accomplished great things. If any of you can pull up a quote from Dawkins where he says that it's impossible for someone who is religious to do anything good, please, post it up. Good luck.

A large part of Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" is devoted to debunking the myth that people need religion in order to be moral. He also gives quite a few examples from the Bible that are absolutely appalling and that any self respecting Christian should be ashamed of believing in. Strictly interpreted, the Bible teaches sexism, xenophobia, and bigotry. People like MLK Jr. are not good because of religion, they're good in spite of it.

Dawkins is not an asshole, he just calls things like he sees them, and backs all of his arguments up with heaps of evidence. Because he's actually standing up to religious ideas which absolutely deserve to be questioned, those who are religious get offended. Plenty of the kinds of liberals who would jump in front of a train if it meant being PC and tolerant (whether something deserves tolerating or not), label the guy as a self-aggrandizing blowhard without even taking the time to do any research.

Do some reading of your own, don't just blast the guy and his ideas over 2nd hand information and quotes taken out of context.

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How about some mythic terminology?
Posted by: StoneRiley on Jan 16, 2007 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about trying out some mythic terminology?

1. Dr. King dedicated himself and his works to a god of wisdom, compassion and peace.

2. That is way better than (for example) the execrable Bush who has dedicated himself and his works to a god of ignorance, greed and war.

3. Therefore, obviously, we would be silly if we criticized Dr. King for using a deity concept. His effort worked very well. Just as, we who are familiar with American carpentry tools would be silly to criticize Chinese carpenters for using different tools.

And this is not fluffy thinking. Mythic terminology like this is intellectually respectable nowadays because thinkers like Jung and Joseph Campbell have succeeded in applying scientific rigor to mythic thinking. We know what a deity concept actually is - and how it can be used and misused - by studying actual anthropological and psychological evidence around the question.

Furthermore: The merest cursory study of the scientific evidence now at hand will easily convince us that Bush et al are not typical deity users. There is a broad spectrum of deity use and it is often done well.

Furthermore: Please note that I have not stated or even implied my personal position on the atheist -- believer scale. This is submitted as evidence that this kind of terminology is rational and rooted outside that narrow argument.

Best regards.
Stone Riley
www.stoneriley.com

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The hatred of religious people put forth here is intense and sad
Posted by: kenhymes on Jan 16, 2007 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's getting old hearing people say that religion causes people to be narrow, shallow, hateful, ignorant, uneducated, destructive, oppressive... place your favorite adjective here.

The lack of actual knowledge of history, religion, politics, and science displayed by the haters is just sad, and reveals the emptiness of the assertions. What's most ironic is the belief in a humanism that denies one the salient characteristics of humans throughout the history of culture: belief in invisible things. I argue that in fact those whose trust, dare I say faith, rests in science or reason are themselves believing in an invisible thing. Where is science? Where is reason? These are words, concepts, intangibles. Actual science is made up of fallible people serving their own self-interest and the convenience and interests of the institutions which fund their work... sounds a lot like religious orders to me.

Genetic perfectionism (the new, "non-racist" eugenics) is science, in fact it is rational and logical... but it is wrong, and the only reason we know it is wrong is because of belief in principles that can't be proved. Is the chemical industry which is poisoning our planet a religious institution? No, it's a product of rationalism. I will sit back and wait for the tortured "logic" which connects fundamentalist end-times thinking with the actions of capitalism.

How do you know that you shouldn't kill someone? (Of course, Sam Harris, as his writings amply demonstrate, does not know this). You know because something you can't touch, taste, or feel tells you that it is wrong. Call it what you want, locate it in some bogus evolutionary adaptation theory if you must (how many adaptations can dance on the head of a sociobiologist?), but it ain't science... it's experience of the intangible, the moral, the spiritual.

More to the point... judge by the fruits. The atheists and the scientists move to arrogance and power for power's sake and violence just as quickly as the religionists, every time. That's because all of us, whatever we believe or don't believe, are human, and susceptible to the inflation of our own self-perceptions. The universe is vast, and beyond our understanding. Kindness and grace are the signs of acknowledgement of our own puniness. Humans who exemplify this are rare... some of them are Christians, some of the are atheists, some of them are Buddhists, some of them are shamanists. I believe in God, but I don't think God cares much which book people believe in. If you believe logic and reason are the path to justice and grace in the world... then walk the walk, rather than tearing down and blaming other people for problems that you are every bit as much a part of as me or the next person.

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» And vice versa Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And vice versa Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And vice versa Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And vice versa Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And vice versa Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: And vice versa Posted by: Gcat
I've read Dawkins' and Harris' work
Posted by: kenhymes on Jan 16, 2007 5:52 AM   
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I've read their stuff, and let me say, in the nicest possible way: they are ignorant of their own topic. They have no deep knowledge of either religion or science in their actual social context and history. They are simply angry, and using whatever form of words is most convincing to themselves as they sit at their computers.

Harris DOES say it's okay to kill people because they are Muslims. Dawkins DOES say it is impossible for religion to co-exist with human social progress. The contortions people are going through to deny the essential mean-spiritedness of these two writers is, well... faith-based.

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Josh and Evan, let me offer this
Posted by: Jesse on Jan 16, 2007 6:37 AM   
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OK, on the one side we seem to have Dawkins et. al and on the other there are people who argue that MLK was a religious man and that faith has a place on "the Left" whatever that means.

Might I offer that the dichotomy being drawn here is a false one, and that the problem with Dawkins actual argument (Josh) is that there are too many counterexamples. So while Dawkins can reasonably say that on a scientific basis many if not most religious concepts fail, he can't say that religion has been the sole obstacle to human progress. See Isaac Newton, for one, who bases much of his physics on a set of metaphysical principles (I could get into a whole discussion here on his reasoning but it is nerdy and kind of opaque without a long explanation of Principia, so I'll leave it for now).

More to the point, as a progressive I can say a big part of a movement that was close to my heart--the rights of Native peoples--is at its heart a religious movement. There is no scientific basis whatsoever for giving the Navajos sovereignty over their land. That is a political discussion--science really can't say all that much about it. But there is ample religious justification, especially in light of our First Amendment rights.

But then you have the craziness perpetrated by Christians and Muslims most visibly, and that makes me think the whole thing is nuts. I used to say that looked at scientifically, the effect of becoming a Christian seems to be a sudden unquenchable desire to kill as many Jews as possible. (After all, it was the Christians who invented the blood libel and the Holocaust).

Muslims, interestingly, have almost no home-grown anti-Semitic imagery a la Germany or France--it all got lifted from Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which probably says more about the political history of the Mideast than about Islam per se. In any case, there are a stack of ironies associated with this one which I'll leave to others to explicate.

In any case, this would say to me that the question of whether religion is "right" in a physical-world sense might well be the wrong one to ask, at least when one is discussing political alliances and more importantly, winning.

Let me give an example of what I mean. There is zero scientific justification for the right of anyone to practice their religion. Nor does such justification exist for treating Muslims as humans. (In fact, I could come up with perfectly rational argumetns for exterminating much of the population, if it came to that). There is no scientific reason to treat people as equals before the law--many systems of government ran quite wll without that, for a hell of a lot longer than ours did or has thus far. Democracy itself, in fact, has not historically been all that stable or lasting (so far--we have to go another 200 years or so to beat the Roman Republic and the only other counterexample is Iceland at 700. The Chinese Empires lasted twice as long).

So maybe, just maybe, the whole issue of Dawkins and religious folks attacking each other is rather a side issue. Interesting, but secondary to the political changes we all want to make. Since as far as I can tell the question of whether we should build a society that is sustainable over the long haul and offers citizens equal chances to do what they need or want to do is rather different. Science can inform those decisions, but it can't rule on them. Same goes for religion.

Any takers?

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» RE: Josh and Evan, let me offer this Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Josh and Evan, let me offer this Posted by: MatthewSavage
Let's just be tolerant
Posted by: chaoslegs on Jan 16, 2007 7:55 AM   
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I am an atheist. I have a very good friend that was going through Luthern Seminary and is now a pastor. We used to have very good and respectful conversations on her beliefs. While she never swayed me, she told me, our conversations helped her examine her belief more deeply and strengthend her beliefs.

The key was the respect that we have for each other, and how that helped form our discussions.

Now if someone starts getting on me for not believing, then I may respond with less tolerant things to say, but that is because I wasn't treated with respect.

And I have no respect (or tolerance) for Holy Joe Lieberman that has bashed non-believers when he said:

...Lieberman warned against "indulg[ing] the supposition 'that morality can be maintained without religion.' "

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» I would agree.. and add... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
THIS DISCUSSION
Posted by: chalet on Jan 16, 2007 2:23 PM   
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has some entertainment value but is ultimately of no value: for example, what about right-wing atheists? And more importantly why not have a discussion of Christian ethics? Who actually practices them and who does not--including people of both parties whether Christians, atheists, or otherwise. This discussion went off the track by comparing MLK & Dawkins is if one precludes the other in terms of being a good person. I know little about the life of Dawkins but MLK clearly attempted to preach Christian ethics. Who else has--or is everyone afraid of being murdered like Christ, MLK, & many, many others. Otherwise this thread is ultimately without valueless.

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there was always hope
Posted by: jareilly on Jan 16, 2007 5:31 PM   
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that if MLK had lived long enough he might have seen the drastic conflicts and inconsistencies in his religion and given it up or at least viewed it with a more skeptical eye. His world view was certainly in conflict with major tenets of the Judeo-christian belief system.

Not much hope I admit but MLK was a deep and thoughtful guy as well as a savvy organizer and man of action. He didn't oppose the Vietnam war at first either but he came around to it. You just never know what might have happened.

You can make the same argument about Desmond Tutu - great guy, a real inspiration but standing on the razor sharp edge of his religion