Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
100 words for 100 days: submit your 100 word essay and get published on AlterNet
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement

Immigration: what part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?

Posted by Joshua Holland at 7:02 AM on October 24, 2006.


Joshua Holland: The law-and-order absolutists have always had a weak position.
immigrant300x401
immi

Share and save this post:
Digg iconDelicious iconReddit iconFark iconYahoo! iconNewsvine! iconFacebook iconNewsTrust icon

Got a tip for a post?:
Email us | Anonymous form

Get PEEK in your
mailbox!

 

The title of this post appears in the comments of every article you'll read dealing with immigration, often several times. One reader recently wrote: "Exactly what part of ILLEGAL don't you understand? (AND YES I PUT THAT IN ALL CAPS!)"

These are the words, we are to believe, of fervent law-and-order types, people who welcome legal immigrants -- people who wait their turn and go through the naturalization process -- with open arms. They recognize that we're a nation of immigrants and have nothing against those who play by the rules. And they're mad -- mad I tell you! -- when anyone dares to suggest that most -- not all, but most -- of the antipathy we see these days towards immigrants really stems from hostility towards people of different ethnicities and darker skin tones.

The argument sounds nice, but there are two problems with it. First, most people are not law-and-order absolutists who become outraged at other minor infractions. Being in this country illegally is not (currently) a violation of the criminal code, it's a civil code violation like letting your car's registration lapse. It's not a felony and it's not a misdemeanor. Most people simply don't work themselves into a lather about similar offenses (entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor, but many undocumented aliens entered legally and allowed their visas to expire).

Second, immigrants who are perfectly legal -- who did wait their turn in line and did go through the process -- face job discrimination every day, strongly suggesting that it's not just about (or mostly about) legal status.

More to the point -- and this is key -- the level of discrimination increases the further an immigrant's appearance is from the dominant white Anglo-Saxon ideal. That hip, sexy British bartender with the blond hair and blue eyes (you know the one I'm talking about) is welcomed in American society, yes, but the little brown guy cleaning the bar after closing time gets the shaft, even if he's gone through the exact same legal channels to get here.

That comes from a new study of LEGAL immigrants (my keyboard has a caps hold key too) by Vanderbilt University economist Joni Hersch. I came by the study via the WaPo's Richard Morin:

Vanderbilt University economist Joni Hersch found that legal immigrants to the United States who had darker complexions or were shorter earned less money than their fair-skinned or taller counterparts with similar jobs, training and backgrounds. Even swarthy whites from abroad earned less than those with lighter skin.

Immigrants with the lightest complexions earned, on average, about 8 to 15 percent more than those with the darkest skin tone after controlling for race and country of origin as well as for other factors related to earnings, including occupation, education, language skills, work history, type of visa and whether they were married to a U.S. citizen.

In fact, Hersch estimated that the negative impact of skin tone on earnings was equal to the benefit of education, with a particularly dark complexion virtually wiping out the advantage of education on earnings.

Taller immigrants also earned more, she found, with every extra inch worth about 1 percent in earnings. […]

Why should pale people earn more? "I don't think that any explanation other than discrimination is possible -- and I am not one to draw such inferences lightly," Hersch said in an e-mail.

Hersch said she had controlled for "everything that could possibly matter." But there it was: skin-tone and height -- the more different from "us" -- from our ideal phenotype -- legal immigrants are, the less they earn.

All of which leads me to say: Yes, I hear the argument that it's all about being ILLEGAL and I’ve given it due consideration. Now, what part of 'I'M NOT BUYING IT!' don't you understand?

Digg!

Tagged as: race, immigration

Joshua Holland is a staff writer at Alternet and a regular contributor to The Gadflyer.


Blago: It Just Keeps Getting Stranger
Have you noticed that Blagojevich appears to be stark raving mad?
Post by Steve Benen. January 9, 2009.
Obama: 'If Paul Krugman Has a Good Idea … Then We're Going to Do It'
Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has been a frequent critic of President-elect Obama.
Post by Amanda Terkel. January 9, 2009.
Kucinich Speaks Out Against Congress' Blind Support of Israel
"We must take a new direction in the Middle East.
Post by Staff. January 9, 2009.
Advertisement
Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
What?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Oct 23, 2006 4:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know its always tempting, and sooo hip, to claim that laws should be broken based on personal preferences but this is very illogical argument.
1) when you fail to register your vehical you are not paying your fair share for road repair, environmental testing of vehicals, etc. Yeah, I guess, its nicer for you but why should you have everyone else pay for you. Do you like to not pay insurance also? What about child support? What about drinking and driving? What about taxes? Let's all just ignore all the laws that are an inconveince, huh?

2) there is racism, sure. Mainly in backwards 'redneck' areas but the racism is probably even stronger in upper,class liberal households. After all its not the poor, white 'rednecks' who are hiring the illegals to be their maids, nannies, bus their tables, or work in their corporations. They were the ones who also hated the Irish, the Italians, and just about anyone else who came from a non-WASP country or was Catholic.

3) the illegals help reinforce the 'racist' problems that already exist. Think of how Italians got stereotypes as gangsters. Same thing with the legal Hispanic people. The influx of illegals helps make people consider all Hispanics 'wetbacks' or whatever bad term. The illegals also commit crimes (and not just the crimes of not paying taxes, not insuring vehicals, driving without a license etc--since we already have confirmed that those laws need not apply to anyone) but serious crimes like rape, dui accidents, theft, prostitution gangs, and drug running. I'm sure you'll deny this- but look at the percentage of people who are in prison and look at any border-city and tell me that I'm wrong.

5) allowing illegals into the economy also hurts the illegals because they can become victims to crime, are less likely to report a crime, and get exploited with low wages, dangerous working conditions, and usurious fees (for wire transfers, bank accounts, rent off-the-books, etc.) We shouldn't be promoting a 3rd world system into the US since the middle-class is squeezed enough and its plain wrong to have people exploited.

4) Finally, 'mexican' 'hispanic' 'latino' 'chicano' is NOT a race. Even Federal forms or any anthropology text book will tell you this. So it can't be 'racism' maybe xenophobia, catholic-hating, or something but can't be racism.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: What? Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: What? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: What? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What? Posted by: harris
» RE: What? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What? Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: What? Posted by: particle
» albrechtkrausse, hmmnn?? Posted by: mirimac
» RE: albrechtkrausse, hmmnn?? Posted by: bronx_girl
» Deport Domesic Terrorists Posted by: Kate Q.
» RE: Deport Domesic Terrorists Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» 'Their goal is to divide us by class and race ' Posted by: Deport The Minutemen
» The Minutemen are the real threat Posted by: Deport The Minutemen
» RE: The Minutemen are the real threat Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Minutemen = Domestic Terrorists Posted by: Deport The Minutemen
» RE: instein says ' It can't be racism' Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Oh, yogi ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» White World Supremacy Posted by: Kate Q.
» White World Supremacy II Posted by: Kate Q.
RE: midwestblue -- try again without the profanity.
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Oct 23, 2006 6:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» The F word Posted by: Kate Q.
Dumb, dumb, dumb
Posted by: freeda'all on Oct 23, 2006 7:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Josh Holland it's getting to be that you're not even worth reading anymore. Your willingness to slant a story and use spin just puts you right in with the best of the right-wing propagandists.

"And you'll note that the word "racism" doesn't appear in this post.

You know Josh I can write a whole chapter on Michaelangelo and never use the word art either.

I don't know what you meant with that remark but it's transparently stupid. The whole bottom half of your article is about racism so I don't see why or whether you used the word 'racism' has any bearing on anything.

Second, immigrants who are perfectly legal -- who did wait their turn in line and did go through the process -- face job discrimination every day, strongly suggesting that it's not just about (or mostly about) legal status.

More to the point -- and this is key -- the level of discrimination increases the further an immigrant's appearance is from the dominant white Anglo-Saxon ideal. That hip, sexy British bartender with the blond hair and blue eyes (you know the one I'm talking about) is welcomed in American society, yes, but the little brown guy cleaning the bar after closing time gets the shaft, even if he's gone through the exact same legal channels to get here.


I'll give you a break here, a chance to redeem yourself so I have just a simple question for you. We all know what the blue-eye, white vs brown part of the discussion is about but can you, Josh Holland, explain why 'short' has anything to do with immigrants facing discrimination?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» I'm not Josh... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Dumb, dumb, dumb Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Dumb, dumb, dumb Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Where were you last week? Posted by: chaoslegs
OK. Now deconstruct all the other illusions we call "common sense."
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 23, 2006 7:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about the one where the US is a meritocracy? Or the one about how more education guarantees you will be well paid? Or that blonde females are dumb? And Jews are rich? Lawyers obey the law? Politicians are fine examples for our youth?

All add up to the undeniable experience that one can find an abundance of stupidity among us without hardly looking. (My private favorite is that all drivers are jerks and dangerous jerks at that. So far it has kept me bodily whole even though I do drive LA freeways, and even though I know it is an exaggeration.)

The US is not getting whiter. Just ask the White People's Party. So it's only a matter of time. Preference for white skin is a historical happenstance. Times change and are changing.

But since illegal immigrants come in all hues and sizes, like a book, you can't tell about a human by its cover--despite what the fashion industry tries to teach us.

Arguments from statistics, such as offered here, don't begin to touch the whole issue; for instance, so what about those with all the *wrong* traits who are not only successful but happy Americans? In other words, the other 85%, or whatever it is, for whom physical appearance does not correlate with discrimination?

Yes, I know, you want to focus on the 15%. America will not have earned your approval until the statisticians cannot find anything for you to complain about. Until then, listen to your betters. (I know, LOL.)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Pilgrims
Posted by: benzene on Oct 23, 2006 7:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just in case you all forgot:
The Pilgrims came into this country ILLEGALLY too, and they were welcomed with open arms by the Native Americans, at least at first. Then the Pilgrims and their venerated WASP followers proceeded to systematically disenfranchise the Native Americans and claim the land that they'd been living on for years as their own.
Imagine what it'd be like if ILLEGAL immigrants today came into this country shooting us, giving us diseases, driving us from our lands, and threatening war just to get us to sign unjust treaties that were really land-grabs. Perhaps that puts things into perspective.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Pilgrims Posted by: South42
» RE: Pilgrims Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Pilgrims Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Pilgrims Posted by: symcokid
Weak arguments?
Posted by: LonewackoDotCom2 on Oct 23, 2006 8:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hersch said she had controlled for "everything that could possibly matter."

Apparently she missed a spot. The WaPo article doesn't mention whether she controlled for IQ. Duh. (Maybe someone could look at the actual study, but one would think that if she did that they would have mentioned it.)

Actually, it's those who support massive legal/illegal immigration who invariably have the weak "argument" of resorting to cries of racism or just regular old lies and distortions.

benzene's comments don't deserve much of a reply, but I'll note that when the Pilgrims landed this was not really a coherent "country" but a series of territories held by various tribes. Nowadays, the U.S. is a coherent country, and that country is constructed out of our laws and traditions. One of the key features of the U.S. is maintaining our current territory and that means not allowing it to be resettled.

benzene's comment illustrates that land belongs to those who can hold it. In the earlier case, the Pilgrims took it from the Indians. In the current case, the Mexican_government just wants the land we possess much more than we seem to want it and they are in effect resettling lands that they used to hold and establishing co-dominion over those lands. (See claims by Fox and Zedillo that the "Mexican Nation" includes all the Mexicans and Mexican-Americans in the U.S., see their various successes at meddling in our internal politics, see the Bush and previous administrations giving what Mexico wants more weight than what U.S. citizens want, etc.)

Finally, here are just some of the arguments against illegal immigration. I tried to put these at sourcewatch.org but they were deleted. Please consider whether this (partial) list of reasons is more important than the supposed issues discussed in the post:

* documented cases of terrorists having crossed both the Mexican and Canadian borders including illegally
* increased social welfare costs
* increased crime
* increased incarceration costs
* illegal immigration being a symptom of widespread political corruption
* illegal immigration giving foreign governments - especially the Mexican government - political power inside the U.S.
* illegal aliens affecting the apportionment of congressional districts
* illegal aliens being given benefits not available to U.S. citizens and the associated devaluation of U.S. citizenship

Bear in mind that's only a partial list.

-- an intro to illegal immigration

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» yes... Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: Weak arguments? Posted by: Betsyny
» RE: Weak arguments? Posted by: WoodwoseRose
» RE: Weak arguments? Posted by: WoodwoseRose
» Partial list o' holes Posted by: chaoslegs
fed up
Posted by: brasilaron on Oct 23, 2006 8:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i get so tired of hearing all these harrangues against "illegal immigrants", f^ck that sh!t, "ningun ser humano es illegal". If you hate that low-wage jobs are being taken by brown-skinned people that don't speak very much English then look at the root causes. There are 2 proximate causes and probably 100s of others that could be mentioned. 1) US economic and trade policies have ruined the structure and ability of wage-earners throughout LatinAmerica; 2) US companies routinely break the law and hire people who have no documentation to prove they are here legally. Both of these causes revolve around corporate greed which revolves around old, white men (there are a few non OWM in the coporate world, but not many). Really it's just the OWM club taking y'all for a bunch a fools and gettin' ya ta hate on somethin to keep ya distracted from the fact that this country is being destroyed from within, like a cancer. This cancer is called Inc.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: fed up Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: fed uppers Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: fed uppers Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: fed uppers Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: fed up Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: fed up Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: fed up Posted by: Doubtom
We should think of immagrants as REPLACEMENTS.
Posted by: wordonusbull on Oct 23, 2006 8:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Replace that word Immagrants with Replacements. Try it. It may dawn on you: " what did I do to help prevent this so-called problem" ? How did and whom did I vote for concerning labor/wages? Have I been replaced? Am I a replacer? Have I been told what to think about the new people that came to live with me? Think NEW.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Silly European-Americans... Posted by: Kate Q.
Sonora Sam
Posted by: iago on Oct 23, 2006 8:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello Josh,

I do believe that you have hit upon a "sore spot" here. I have read the naysayer's response and not one of them seems to address your "core point" (that those who complain mightly about the illegality of the undocumented don't seem to get worked into a comparable lather over other civil offenses.

Now for my two cents worth:

We do have an immigration problem, but it isn't a black-white, good-guys and bad-guys situation. It is in fact, a real muddle (morally, economically and otherwise) with no easy fix.

Here are some salient points:

There is a populous country on our Southern border that has far more people than it has jobs that can provide daily bread and freedom from the fear of starvation.

We have an economy that absolutely depends upon lots of poorly paid workers doing manual labor.

There is no evidence that any terrorists entered our country by walking through the dangerous passage of the deserts of our SouthWest.

I have no quarrel with treating the "truly criminal" undocumented as "true criminals". Anyone caught selling drugs, conducting drive-by shoot-outs or engaging in any similar truly heinous activity should be treated as criminals regardless of where they come from.

However we do no service to truth or justice when we "raise the spectre" of the illegal alien as "criminals" soley on the basis of their "irregular presence" on our soil. We have to acknowledge that many (if not most) are simply economic refugees who are willing to work hard at poorly paying jobs in unpleasant circumstances...just to guarantee a better life for themselves or their children.

We still may not want them here "under the circumstances" (i.e. without official permission) but to pretend that they are all (or mostly) "bad people" or "terrorists" is simply a lie.

And to pretend that our "motives" for not wanting them here are "noble" (protecting our homeland) or free from ethnic prejudice is to be far less than honest with ourselves.

That is my "two cents worth".

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Sonora Sam Posted by: Suburban Dad
» Not one? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Not one? Posted by: Joshua Holland
What does legal or illegal mean?
Posted by: symcokid on Oct 24, 2006 4:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it such a big deal if a Mexican is in this country illegally, the USofA invaded Iraq illegally and we're occupying Iraq illegally. Israel has illegal uninspected Nuclear Facilities called Dimona and never has signed a Non-Proliferation Treaty. This country and resources were stolen from the Inigenous People, was that legal? The definition seems rather moot depending on the situation I guess, sometimes it's a little bit illegal and in other instances it's not legal in any sense of the word. So lets not refute the Mexicans have a right to come back to their homeland!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

How about punishing the other law-breaker. . .
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Oct 24, 2006 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally I am in favor of little to no enforcement of individuals being here illegally but crushing enforcement for the hiring of "illegals" in any capacity. In my mind, if it is prohibitively expensive for any employer to hire an illegal immigrant for fear of punitive fines, the core problem is solved and the resources used currently chase illegals down will be able to focus on the only ones left: those here not to work but to do the country harm in some way. Yes, the price of certain goods & services will increase as employeres are forced to hire domestic, but isn't that a preferable state of play?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Silly European-Americans... Posted by: Kate Q.
» Silly immigration service Posted by: harris
» RE: Silly immigration service Posted by: Joshua Holland
» A substantive response ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Holland, the issue is corporate use of illegal aliens
Posted by: wobblies on Oct 24, 2006 6:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Holland~
The basic problem that average people understand but pundits completely miss is that immigrants, both legal and illegal, are being used by corporations to undercut the living standards of American working people. They are coming into the country by the millions and most are able to get work: when the BLS says that 150,000 jobs have been created in the last month, 20-30% of those new jobs are being given, even reserved for cheap labor from abroad. What part of that, young man, don't you get?

I dare you to look into the issue rather than relying upon old sterotypes of poor Mexicans looking for work to support their families. So are we, but they are our jobs.

God Speed,
David

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Not So Fast
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 24, 2006 9:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sometimes people with different views can take a similar stand. I feel that our nation's laws governing immigration, work & student visas, and resident aliens should be enforced. Changing the rules is a different issue completely.

I do not care what color, race, ethnicity, culture or faith our nation's immigrants come from. I do care about their respect for our laws, a desire to become part of the greater American culture and their ability to contribute to our nation rather than just be another burden upon it.

The plain and simple truth of the matter is that any nation has a right, duty and responsibility to control it's borders, determine it's immigration policies and set the ground rules. Being for an orderly immigration process that is in the interest of the nation does not imply that one is racist. Some may be motivated by xenophobia, but I am not.

The United States cannot take in every poor person that the world can send us or even every poor person with the chutzpah, drive and means to get here. We cannot absorb and unregulated number of mostly poor and uneducated immigrants on a sustained basis without harming our ability to take care of the poor and disadvantaged already here. Our schools, public hospitals and other institutions are already under enough strain without the added burden of millions who come here without the language skills, legal status or job skills necessary to take care of themselves.

The standard for those seeking to migrate to this nation should be based upon these simple concepts:

1- A marketable job skill in shortage in our nation or the ability to establish a self-sustaining business here.
2- Functional ability in the written and spoken common language of our nation- English.
3- A stated desire to integrate into our society- not establish another voluntary ethnic ghetto. A multi-cultural society needs connections- not fiefdoms. Assimilate into our common culture by bringing things from your historical home to it and adopting our ways as well.
4- A commitment to love America first and foremost. Be proud of your background, but more proud to your adopted home and culture. Learn the ways of it's people and participate in it's culture.

Our nation becomes a better and culturally richer place with every new immigrant that is willing to become a part of the American culture. The very strength of our nation is derived from things brought here from every corner of the earth. We need to allow people to immigrate here in a safe, orderly and regulated fashion that does not hurt the poor already here or overwhelm the ability of our institutions to serve all of our people.

Simply stated, not everyone opposed to the invasion by illegal immigrants is motivated by xenophobia or racism. Many are motivated by common sense and a desire to be fair to those already here. That should be our first priority.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Not So Fast Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Not So Fast Posted by: Joshua Holland
OC Weekly: ¡Ask a Mexican!
Posted by: RV on Oct 24, 2006 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OC Weekly

¡Ask a Mexican!

By GUSTAVO ARELLANO
Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:00 am
Illustration by Mark Dancy

Dear Mexican,

What is it about the word “illegal” that Mexicans don’t understand?

D.G.
Laguna Beach

Dear Gabacho,

Take your pick, D.G. Mexicans don’t understand the word “illegal” because: (A) when paying their gardeners, nannies, busboys and factory workers in cash (and forgetting to withhold payroll taxes), U.S. employers don’t seem to understand the word “illegal,” so why should Mexicans? (B) The Anglo-American trappers and traders whom you and I were taught to admire as tough, self-sufficient frontiersmen and pioneers were among the American Southwest’s first illegals. Who are you calling illegal, gabacho? (C) Presidente Bush’s proposal to offer amnesty and a guest-worker program to all illegal immigrants—a move designed to appease his supporters in the business community—means even Republicans don’t understand the word. (D) Whether they buy a fake passport or take a citizenship oath, Mexicans will never be more than wetbacks in the eyes of many Americans, so why bother applying for residency? (E) The Orange County Register stylebook reportedly requires its reporters to describe as “undocumented workers” the men and women you call “illegal.” (F) Little-known fact: the fragment of poetry on the Statue of Liberty (“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,” etc.) does not, because of a French engraver’s error, include Emma Lazarus’ rarely cited footnote: “No Mexicans, please.” Fucking French. But the real answer is the word itself. “Illegal” is an English word; Mexicans speak Spanish—yet you never hear Mexicans whine that their bosses don’t understand such easy Spanish phrases as “pinche puto pendejo baboso,” do you?

Got a spicy question about Mexicans? Ask the Mexican at garellano@ocweekly.com. And those of you who do submit questions: give your name or a pseudonym, por favor, or we’ll make one up for you!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: OC Weekly: ¡Ask a Mexican! Posted by: Joshua Holland
America has always despised the newcommers
Posted by: DanoM on Oct 24, 2006 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look at every wave of immigration we've had throughout history. They have always been labeled a problem people. At one time it was the Dutch that were problems, then Germans, Slavs, Irish, Italians (with their Catholic religion even!), and so many other people. Everytime a new group started arriving in America we complained about them. Legal or not, it's still the same complaints. They don't integrate, they don't speak English, they don't eat what we do, they don't have the same culture, belief system or whatever.

I'm pretty sure that my Irish, Scottish & German ancestors faced more than a little persecution, because they were different and came in large groups from Europe. They were on the bottom rung of the ladder, and had to fight a hard uphill battle to get work, food or even places to live. And just because they suffered doesn't mean that every other immigrant to this country should too.

It's a rediculous argument that immigrants are destroying this nation. They are only "flavoring" this nation's melting pot with new ideas and values. If people are coming to this country to work, and live productive lives I have no problem whatsoever with their presence here.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Whatever Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: water Posted by: chaoslegs
It's about domination and subordination of others, stupid
Posted by: Kate Q. on Oct 24, 2006 12:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In essence, you are saying 'I am proud of being made the dominant superior group'

If you are going to say that, then you are going beyond pride and something other than heritage, culture and tradition.

You are being proud of domination and subordination of others. That's all whiteness means in it's contemporary context.

So, there is nothing wrong with being proud of European heritage, but to be proud of whiteness is to be proud of that one thing which is utterly obsurd and inherintly supremisist.
In case you haven't heard, the pilgrims were undocumented!

Silly European-Americans....tsk.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

another fakeLeft propaganda article ateering illegal immigration debate away from economics
Posted by: mah_favorite_flavor_cherry_red on Oct 24, 2006 6:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....the fakeLeft and the overclass like to steer the immigration debate away from populist economics, and toward law and order and culture and race issues. THe overclass hates it when the national debate touches on populist economics. And the immigration debate is at heart an issue of populist economics, specifically the issue of driving down American wages by flooding the labor supply.

The overclass controls the Right and the Fakeleft, and this article is yet more overclass propaganda from the fakeLeft, helping the overclass to frame the issues.....

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» "no personal attacks" for thee, but not for me, eh? Posted by: mah_favorite_flavor_cherry_red
» Toss. Bag. Posted by: HeroesAll
» red is NOT a flavor Posted by: brasilaron
What the actual debate ought to be
Posted by: chuckbutcher on Oct 24, 2006 10:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have a legal blue collar work force that has been steadily losing ground against inflation for years. A flood of poorly educated, non-English speaking, illegal immigrants compounds that loss. The companies that hire illegally depress the wages of all workers in their business area. Businesses that obey the law and hire legally are placed at a competitive disadvantage, increasing the incentive to hire illegally.

Labor positions that once were the gateway out of poverty are now poverty, construction is a particularly egregious example. It makes no difference what the worker's race, native country, or original language is, if the market is overcrowded the dollar value of the work decreases.

Whatever the trade policies of the US government are, whatever corruption, racism, and xenophbia the illegals are escaping in their native land, none of these are the fault of or to the benefit of legal blue collar workers who are expected in this scenario to pay for such failings. There is absolutely nothing "left" or "progressive" in this argument, it is simply a case of working hand in glove with the plutocrats and lying cheats who do the hiring.

How many of the posters giving kudos to this article would like to work for one half their wage? That is the outcome of Ronald Reagan's amnesty and the ensuing flood of illegal aliens for construction work for inflation adjusted wages. If you think this post is about racism, it's not, but the outcome of this debate may well spark some of the most serious racism in years. The workers being displaced will not take out their ire on the plutocrats and their political hangers on, they will turn to the people they see doing their former jobs.

Does racism and xeophobia figure in the "anti-illegal" rhetoric? Certainly it does, and it is used to appeal to that impulse, that does not change the facts regarding labor. The cure isn't racism, it is serious, crippling sanctions on those who hire illegally and hard time for those committing fraud with documentation.

Maybe sweat and calluses have become devalued as a trade for income by those who keyboard or play paper games for income, well, it's not a good idea to play class warfare, especially with those who are tougher than you. These low paying jobs save you very little in the end product, but the difference at that income level is huge.
Chuck

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» The Perfect Distraction Posted by: Kate Q.
» RE: The Perfect Distraction Posted by: chuckbutcher
Leaving on a jetplane
Posted by: Burton on Oct 25, 2006 5:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua,

Have you gotten on an airplane recently? It's like checking into county jail with all the security and TSA goons. Now supposing I decided to just push my way through the airport security screening areas and justified my actions by claiming I was an undocumented passenger? How do you think that would "fly"?

The point is, most Americans play it by the rules. Or at least try to. When they see leftists standing up for illegal immigration, they ask what is the point in themselves obeying the law. And that is a good question.

Why don't we see the left marching on down to the airports and protesting against the TSA hassling people trying to travel legally? If the left were to have the guts to do that, I can guarantee you that millions of people would join in with them.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Leaving on a jetplane Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Leaving on a jetplane Posted by: Burton
A question for Joshua
Posted by: Burton on Oct 26, 2006 9:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua,

The biggest problem is, what exactly is the "progressive" position on immigration? I do not see any consistent policy on this. Instead, the left seems to have taken up this cause without thinking it through. So here are some questions:

Should the USA have open borders?

Should we tear down all border fences?

Should we abolish the Border Patrol?

Should we get rid of passports -- if it is OK for immigrants to enter the country without documentation, why should the rest of us have to show a passport?

Thanks for any answers.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: A question for Joshua Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A question for Joshua Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: A question for Joshua Posted by: Joshua Holland
Levying racism
Posted by: YogiBear on Oct 26, 2006 3:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Assuming racism is itself often bigoted.

I once considered the tactic of intentionally mischaracterizing an opponents position a right-wing thing. No longer. It is, however, clearly a lockstep way of debating. Congratulations, Josh. You're now closer to conservative than I ever could be.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Levying racism Posted by: Joshua Holland
Crime pays
Posted by: YogiBear on Oct 26, 2006 4:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being in this country illegally is not (currently) a violation of the criminal code, it's a civil code violation like letting your car's registration lapse. It's not a felony and it's not a misdemeanor.

Actually, an immigration official featured on NPR pointed out that existing law states that overstaying a visa is a civil code violation. Illegally crossing is a misdameanor. Plus, anyone who is deported and crosses again is then committing a felony.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Crime pays Posted by: Joshua Holland