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An Evolutionary Biologist Visits the "Creationism Museum"

Posted by PZ Myers, Pharyngula at 5:00 AM on August 11, 2009.


Where guards are ready with tasers to suppress criticism of the museum's loony ideas.

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We visited the Creation "Museum" last Friday.

I'm careful to put the title in quotes, because it is not a museum in any respectable sense of the word. I knew this ahead of time; I had no expectation of any kind of credible presentation in this place, but what impressed me most is how far it failed to meet even my low hopes. They clearly want to ape a real museum, but they can't — their mission is the antithesis of open inquiry.

The guards are a clear example. Real museums have guards, of course: they're there to protect valuable exhibits from theft and vandalism. But real museums want their guards to be discreet and not interfere with the attendees appreciation of the exhibits. At the Creation "Museum", one of the jobs of the guards is to suppress criticism. They hover about in rather conspicuous uniforms, armed with tasers, and some use police dogs to check out the visitors. They don't want dissent expressed in their building, and they admit it themselves.

There was a lot of mocking inside the museum Friday (and to a lesser extent during Dr. Jason Lisle's noon lecture) by dozens of the 285 in the SSA group, and some of the mocking could be clearly heard by many of our guests (especially in our Noah's Flood rooms, but also in the Garden of Eden exhibit when words like "garbage" were uttered, etc.). Several times during the day we had to ask mockers to keep their voices down (I did it five times myself), but generally, it was more peaceful than what we expected (many blog comments from those who were coming were promising some very aggressive actions).

Think about the genuine museums you might have visited. Can you imagine the curators at the American Museum of Natural History being concerned that someone might openly disagree with an exhibit? Do you think Niles Eldredge bustles about the museum, shushing anyone who questions the displays? Would they turn away a visitor wearing a Jesus shirt, or one that baldly declared evolution is false? At real museums, the attitude would range from indifference to active encouragement of discussion. The Creation "Museum" cannot tolerate that.

We were asked to sign a document before we entered that required us to be "respectful" of their facilities, which apparently meant more than simply appropriately regarding their building as private property. One of our atheists was in an entirely friendly conversation about evolution with a creationist visitor, when one of the guards came up and asked them to stop, saying that we had signed an agreement not to even discuss anything in the building where others could hear. (To his credit, the creationist said that he welcomed the discussion the guards wanted to silence, and they continued outside.) They knew we disagreed with them, and they were clearly on edge…and they knew that their beliefs could not stand up in the face of free speech.

There were other differences with real museums once we got inside. Think about the layout of serious museums, like the AMNH or the Smithsonian or our local Bell Museum: you enter, there are various rooms and areas organized by subject matter, but you're free to explore. In fact, that word, "explore", is a central theme of most museums. Maybe it's unfair to compare a small potatoes, non-science affair like Ken Ham's building to major scientific institutions; it's more of a place for family entertainment. So compare it to the Pacific Science Center, or OMSI, or the Franklin museum or the Science Museum of Minnesota— places where kids come on field trips and families show up with 5-year-olds, and entertainment is a major function. Exploration is still the byword, and they also emphasize interactivity.

7cs.jpeg

Ken Ham's Creation "Museum" does none of that. They have a script you're supposed to follow. There is a single route that snakes through the building with a series of exhibits with a linear agenda. You are supposed to get their Sunday School lesson plan of the 7 C's (creation, corruption, catastrophe, confusion, Christ, cross, and consummation). Exploration is not an option. You will follow their track. There is no interactivity, either — it's a chain of displays, dioramas, and little scenes, supplemented with frequent videos that tell you what to think.

This was not a museum: it is a haunted house. It is a carnival ride. It shows throughout in the layout — the rubes are supposed to be shuttled through efficiently, get their little thrills, and exit so the next group can make the trip. If they'd had a few million more, I imagine they would have invested in tracks and little cars and turned it into the Creation Ride. The creators of this place wouldn't recognize a museum if they woke up in the middle of the Smithsonian on a bed of museum maps with a giant sign saying "MUSEUM" in front of their faces and an army of docents shouting directions at them. They seem to have gotten all their information about how a museum works by visiting Disneyland.

What about the scientific content? They must have made some kind of argument, right? Wrong. They didn't even try.

samefacts.jpeg

This is their core premise. They claim that scientists and creationists are all working from exactly the same set of facts, and the only difference is in how we interpret them…and that they have an extra source of information that scientists reject, the Bible.

twoviewsdiorama.jpeg

Their first big exhibit is a perfect example of the principle in action. It's a model of a dinosaur dig, with two men working away at excavating the bones. There is a video accompanying it in which the two views are presented. The younger Asian fellow in front says, and I paraphrase, "This animal died about a hundred million years ago. Its body dried in the sun for several days before being slowly buried under layers of sediment in a local flood." Then the avuncular creationist says, "I see the same bones, but I believe this dinosaur was killed suddenly about 4400 years ago in a huge global flood, which buried it deeply all at once." And then he goes on to explain that see, they have the very same evidence, but he understands it in the light of God's word.

It is a profoundly dishonest display. No, they are not using the same evidence: the creationist is ignoring all but the most superficial appearances. The scientist says a few details about this particular dinosaur, but what Ken Ham hides is that every statement would have a large body of evidence in its support. This isn't two guys stating their mere beliefs in a field…it's one guy, the creationist, closing his eyes to the evidence and spouting Biblical gibberish, and one scientist stating the conclusions of substantial investigations.

The scientist does not say a particular fossil is 125 million years old simply because he feels like it. It's a conclusion built on careful observation of the geology — if you read a paleontology paper, you'll often find a substantial discussion of the details of the rocks surrounding the specimen — and by the morphology of the rocks, the history of the area, the physics of the radioisotopes present, the other animal and plant fossils found in the same plane (which, in turn, had their ages evaluated). It is the product of an impressive consilience of evidence, all of which the creationist is rejecting, or more likely, of which he is utterly ignorant.

It's part of our problem in getting the message of science out. In this video, the white-bearded creationist speaks calmly, acts like a pleasant and reasonable fellow, and appears capable of tying his own shoes. But if you know even a scrap of the actual science being misrepresented, you know that he's an ignorant fool who is telling lies to children, and he transforms instantly from Santa Claus to predatory propagandist. I think that's what they actually mean by "same facts, two views".

human_reason_gods_word.jpeg

It's an ongoing theme throughout the "museum" that there are these two views in opposition, and it's often stated quite unashamedly that the conflict is between God's word and…human reason. It's also quite clear that human reason is the enemy to Ken Ham and his crew.

This display is a beautiful example of their tactics, though. I had come to this place expecting a Gish Gallop of misdirection, in which they'd hurl a barrage of half-truths, out-of-context information, and outright lies about the science at the viewer, which usually puts the informed critic in the position of having to struggle with correcting point after point, each one requiring more time to address than the creationist spent asserting it. This place is very different. Instead, we get a Ham Hightail, in which he hurtles along heedlessly pretending that the evidence simply doesn't exist, so he doesn't need to argue against it, and it's enough to back up his claims by quoting Bible verses.

I suppose it works well for the gullible attendees, but for those of us looking for some ideas with which to wrestle, the impression left is one of credulous vacuity. It's an empty "museum", with no real ideas, no evidence, just a collection of props to illustrate an unquestioned myth.

creo_tree.jpeg

When they do make plain statements that contradict the science, they don't bother to provide a reason to accept their view over the scientific one — reason is the enemy, you may recall. It's enough to simply declare that this is GOD'S WORD, therefore it is true. Never mind that it is only one narrow interpretation of their god's awesomely vague words, that many of their fellow Christians can interpret it differently, or that the evidence of nature (which, presumably, is their god's creation) says something completely different. It is simply no problem to declare that human affinities to other animals are not real, we are unique and unchanging, and that divergence (of a very limited sort) only happens to animals. It is a simple-minded absolutism that relies on ignorance.

The "museum" actually spends more time condemning heretics than it does science, which, as I said, is mostly ignored. I was rather amused to discover several prominent exhibits frothing madly over Charles Templeton — I almost felt some sympathy for his foundation, since they get hammered from all sides. Almost. (Never mind, wrong Templeton. The exhibits do no refer to the founder of the Templeton Foundation, but to a apostate Canadian author and cartoonist…not to say anything against the fellow, but it's even weirder that he was given such prominence here.)

templeton_sign.jpeg templeton_timeline.jpeg

millions.jpeg

One mantra was repeated over and over: "millions of years". This is also the enemy, an idea whose sole purpose is to undermine their literalist interpretation of scripture. In several places there are little tirades against the whole concept that the world could be more than 6,000 years old — it's bad, not because there are problems in the evidence supporting an old earth, but simply because it would have the unfortunate consequence of opening the Bible up to interpretations other than their rigid formulation. They had a lovely symbolic representation of this idea with a wrecking ball labeled "MILLIONS OF YEARS" demolishing a church.

Reason is an enemy, millions of years is an enemy, let's add another: reality is their enemy. No wonder they're so paranoid!

eve_adam.jpeg

Much of the museum consists of little more than pretty affirmations. The various exhibits that have gotten a fair amount of press, such as the models of Adam and Eve, the construction of the Ark, the consequences of the Fall, etc., etc., etc., just sit there. There isn't any evidence for them, other than a few sentences in an old book, so the construction crews in Kentucky just let their imaginations run loose and built improbably scenes out of the fabric of quaint myths. But there they are, solid and visible, and that's their sole purpose — to solidify Bible scenes in the minds of the faithful. This stuff has all the verisimilitude and significance of a wax museum exhibit of Britney Spears, Queen Elizabeth, and Liberace…more emptiness, with much money spent to make it a pretty void. There is a great deal of useless noise in this theme park…well, useless in making a defensible argument, at any rate. This is all eye candy for the believers.

ark.jpeg

suffering.jpeg

There are some jarring moments. A lot of effort is spent discussing how horrible the consequences of the "millions of years" worldview are, yet they rather blithely skip over the horrible consequences of their imaginary god's actions. The space dedicated to Noah's Ark and the flood is very large — it might be the largest section of the "museum" — and the grim horror of that story is treated callously. A diorama contains, rendered in loving detail, a few rocks in a rising sea covered with desperate people struggling and frantically waving to the Ark serenely gliding by. Ah, yes, a little hint of the joys of heaven, when the saved will be able to smugly watch the suffering of sinners in hell.

There is an appalling video recreation of the flood which shows children playing and villagers going about their business in a small ancient town, when suddenly an immense wall of water rises on the horizon, and then…the roar of the tidal wave and the screams of the doomed. Charming.

I do not think I like these people.

I was also a bit aghast at this display.

hamite.jpeg

With complete seriousness and no awareness of the historical abuses to which this idea has been put, they were promoting the Hamite theory of racial origins, that ugly idea that all races stemmed from the children of Noah, and that black people in particular were the cursed offspring of Ham. If they are going to reject science because of its abuses, such as eugenics, they should at least be conscious of the evils perpetrated in the name of their strange cultish doctrines, I should think.

Again, though, there's absolutely no science in any of this — every conclusion is built exclusively on an idiosyncratic interpretation of the Bible. There is nothing at all for a scientist anywhere in this entire edifice. There is nothing for anyone other than a fundamentalist Christian who has bought into a great deal of presuppositionalist nonsense, either.

aftereden4b.jpeg

One last example of this irrational absurdity. This is a strange thing: they seem to take pride in their boldness of stating this idea, making comics about it and even selling t-shirts in their store that declare it. They have an answer for where the sons of Adam and Eve got their wives, and they are quite definite about it. They married their sisters. And that was all right.

I think they might be disappointed to know that I find nothing shocking about their conclusion. What I find terrible is their rationale, which they explain at some length in this ugly wall of text.

cain.jpeg

Again, no science anywhere in there, just reasoning after the fact from a pre-determined conclusion. Everything written in the Bible must be literally true, so since 1 Corinthians and Genesis teaches that Eve was the mother of all people, no other interpretation is possible but that Cain had to marry another child of his mother and father.

The rest is excuses, claiming that since they were genetically perfect, inbreeding wouldn't have been a problem, and most amusingly, it was OK because God said so. Anything god says is good.

Since God is the One who defined marriage in the first place, God's Word is the only standard for defining proper marriage. People who do not accept the Bible as their absolute authority have no basis for condemning someone like Cain marrying his sister.

There is no rational argument that can address the claims of a group of people who claim absolute authority from an invisible man whose voice is heard only in their heads. We cannot change their minds with science; if you think you can sit down with a genetics text and a paleontology text and a geology text and run through the evidence and expose the foundations of the Creation "Museum" as false, you're doomed — there is no rebuttal to the illusion of an omniscient authority.

You will also not make headway by coddling religious belief or respecting their delusions. I recalled this quote while I was there:

The American scientific community gains nothing from the condescending rhetoric of the New Atheists--and neither does the stature of science in our culture. We should instead adopt a stance of respect towards those who would hold their faith dear, and a sense of humility based on the knowledge that although science can explain a great deal about the way our world functions, the question of God's existence lies outside its expertise.

Mooney and Kirshenbaum, Unscientific America, 2009

This is precisely what Ken Ham wants. He demands that you respect his ideas, and he certainly does hold his faith dear. His whole premise in his theme park is to amplify uncertainty about science, to insist that scientists must be more humble, while asserting absolute certainty about the existence of his god, and that his belief is the sole explanation for all natural phenomena.

Don't give it to him. All his carnival act deserves is profound disrespect and ridicule. Go to his "museum" as you would to a cheap freak show, and laugh, laugh, laugh…and go home to publicly mock and heap scorn upon it.

Irreverence is our answer, not dumb humble deference.

giddyap.jpeg

 

Digg!

Tagged as: evolution, creationism, intelligent design, relgious fundamentalism

PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris. He runs the science blog, Pharyngula.


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View:
And yet there is hope ...
Posted by: inprov73 on Aug 11, 2009 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An Extinction we can live with:

Extinction

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: And yet there is hope ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
"same facts, two views".
Posted by: gallery on Aug 11, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is more full of shit than "Two girls, one cup"

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» disgusting.... Posted by: permanentilt
» RE: "same facts, two views". Posted by: rwmenser
Re-LIE-gion
Posted by: QQOblivion on Aug 11, 2009 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I read about the guards, my first thought was, I wonder if they hire them from Blackwater? That would be appropriate!

Let me tell you -- a "God" that wishes his followers to live is such obscene ignorance is EVIL! Yes, people. IF God exists (which is doubtful, given they way reality works. Have you seen the news ever?), then God is evil.

Even the fundies sometimes say that dinosaur bones were put there by God to fool us.

Tell me, fundies. How many diseases has religion cured? Has religion put people on the moon? Did religious belief lead to the invention of the computer and the internet?
No, that is SCIENCE's doing. Even if there is a God, and even if God is good and omnipotent and all that, then science is the study of God's creation as it REALLY is -- quite a divine pursuit, I would imagine.

The only reason to ignore science, then, is if you fear your God wants you to live in ignorance. How sad for you.

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» Concerning the burning bush Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: e-LIE-gion Posted by: MT512
'MUSEUM' SEEMS LIKE A STRETCH
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Aug 11, 2009 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Exhibit yes, but not a museum. I was wondering who provided the funding for this museum. It could answer alot of questions. Museums are open minded places that raise alot of questions and sometimes doubts. That's what they're supposed to do. They don't exist to cement ideas and rule out everything else. I'd follow the money on this one. Any Federal funding? ANNA

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» "FUNHOUSE" would be more appropos Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Roadside attraction Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Somethings Rotten
Posted by: particle on Aug 11, 2009 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's amazing the amount of effort people will go to to avoid using their heads. It's everywhere; people just put their minds on autopilot and babble stock phrases-- like they're trying to comfort themselves with ideological self-medication. Juvenile regressives.

Sarah Palin, creationist museums, death threats over holy cannibal crackers, tea baggers, the never ending Michael Jackson circus, weepy sarcastic ignorant talk radio, torture, predator drones, Goldman Sachs, off shore slave labor... shit shit shit, on and on

With a suffocating stink like this you know something important has died in the body of civilization.

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» RE: Somethings Rotten Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: Somethings Rotten Posted by: particle
Fundamentalism and authoritarian government fit hand in glove
Posted by: Paul_C on Aug 11, 2009 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are the same thing - mindless drones screaming for a human sacrifice to the angry gods to make themselves feel safe and alive through the subjugation of "soulless" outsiders.

peace,
Paul

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Museums
Posted by: SalB on Aug 11, 2009 8:59 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it is a bit silly to say this wasn't a museum because patrons had to follow a set path. I saw the King Tut exhibit at the DeYoung in San Francisco and was ushered in to the first rooms and went along with a group through each of the subsequent rooms. The exhibit was not set up to let people "explore" from Tut's tomb back to his ancestors. The curators there too had a story to tell.

Before we could get in to see that exhibit, my mother and I went through other parts of the museum. We made our way through the American art exhibit backwards, quite by accident. The art probably would have been more enjoyable if I had the context of the story around the art.

The Creation Museum's curators were pretty authoritarian in the way they structured the exhibits, but all good museums try to have some kind of theme or story to follow.

I would hardly argue that this is a good museum, but one of the hallmarks of a good museum is that it is not just a warehouse of interesting stuff. Good museums have exhibits that tell compelling and accurate stories. The Creation Museum just fails on the accuracy part.

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» RE: Museums Posted by: particle
» It sounds like IKEA Posted by: Beck
» RE: Museums Posted by: Sister_Lauren
An Immaculate Conception!
Posted by: talkville on Aug 14, 2009 1:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conceived, constructed and maintained, from the ground-up by enlisting the assistance of Intelligent Design. A secular sacred space and time, well guarded materially and intellectually by such powers as the growl, the glare, the intimidating presence and, of course, the taser.

An Experience to enjoy!

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Creationist museum
Posted by: zodiac12 on Aug 14, 2009 1:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel the 'creator's surname says it all. Ham.

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If God were all powerful there wouldn't be any fee charged
Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Aug 14, 2009 3:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
at this warehouse of lies & misinformation, nor contributions asked for (demanded by moral intimidation/extortion) in any church ever. George Carlin made a great point by pointing out an all-powerful entity at some point would have figured out how to handle money. God obviously never did because (through his minions) he/she/it always asks/demands more, more, more.

Since Jesus supposedly could change water to wine couldn't this all-powerful God thing turn a turd into money if I dropped one in the collection plate? Come to think of it, all we've ever gotten back from religion (aside from conflict, confusion, strife, war, mythology, fiction, torture, fearmongering, civil unrest, murder, invasions, pain, suffering, guilt, dementia, slavery, & diversion of funds that could be better used) is BS, so I guess I'd be paid back in kind.

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Oh, absolutely I believe in God...
Posted by: rugger on Aug 14, 2009 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...And I absolutely hate the fucker.

-Vin Diesel in "Pitch Black"

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Anybody else have trouble with any of the graphics?
Posted by: photon's feather on Aug 14, 2009 4:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I saw nothing but little boxes with tags/titles for the first two and the second, third, and fourth from the last. (Clicking on got me nowhere: a new, blank window.)

I seem to be having trouble more often - ever since I "upgraded" my internet "service."

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» Thanks Posted by: photon's feather
On the upside:
Posted by: photon's feather on Aug 14, 2009 4:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Don't miss Flying Spaghetti Monster! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
Where guards are ready with tasers to suppress criticism of the museum's loony ideas
Posted by: goeswithness on Aug 14, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hmm. I didn't see any sign of that in the article. Are we on "Obama's going to kill your Grandma" territory?

And as much as I would not bother with this museum, if people did, as the quote says, threaten to come and behave "aggressively," tasers might be appropriate.

A guard at the Holocaust museum was shot recently. Shouldn't guards be ready to deal with actions which achieve a certain level of aggression?

And if a group of people came to the Holocaust museum and started loudly exposing their anti-semitism, do you think that museum would or should ignore it?

As it was, all the guard had to do that day was ask people to quiet down. If they were being disruptive, that seems appropriate. I'm pretty sure that if you were loud and rowdy at any museum, the guards would say something to you.

So much of your article talks about relying on science and facts, and I agree - but much of the beginning of this article is relying on intellectual dishonesty and rabble-rousing.

I think the birthers and the teabaggers are enough. I have no tolerance for it.

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Field trips to unreason
Posted by: drosera on Aug 14, 2009 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how many public schools have sent their students to this "museum"? Quite a few, given its location in rural Kentucky, I would guess. It's something we should keep watch on. No way young people, not always prepared with a skeptical frame of mind, should be exposed to this one-sided bunch of malarky.

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» RE: Field trips to unreason Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Field trips to unreason Posted by: paulaH
I simply do not understand.
Posted by: marew on Aug 14, 2009 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have what I thought was a very bright friend with a graduate degree. We were out to dinner several months ago. Somehow the age of the earth came up. She is an evangelical and claimed that the earth is only a few thousand years old. I asked how could that be with carbon dating showing the earth to be many millions of years old. Her matter of fact reply was that during the 'great flood' water covered everything and made all theses things appear much older than they really are. I am stunned by the suspension of reality these creationists espouse in order to believe their fairy tales.

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» minor technical point Posted by: inverse_agonist
» It's desperation. Posted by: Steven Wanzell
The God who is not
Posted by: Romans1 on Aug 14, 2009 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny how obsessed atheists are with this non-existent God and those who believe in Him.

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» RE: The God who is not Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: The God who is not Posted by: MT512
To: romans1 as in one celled brain
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Aug 14, 2009 6:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following CLEARLY demonstrates how you mumbo jumbo addicts "think", if you even do~~

LOONEY TUNES

Funny that the song, "I'm a Believer" was sung by a bunch of monkeys.

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I'm a Christian who wouldn't set foot in that place
Posted by: SufiLizard on Aug 14, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My parents live not far from this freak show and keep saying they want to take our kids there some day.

NO WAY!!!!!

I'm a Christian, I even work for the church, but this sort of foolishness only hurts our cause.

I believe the Bible is full of Truth without being literally true. Read Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth or even Robert Bly's Iron John. There is truth to be gleaned from stories that aren't literally true.

Why is that so hard to comprehend about the Bible?

I guess because then you are required to think and it takes a lifetime of effort to comprehend. Who's got time for that?

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» Gotcha! Busted! Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Gotcha! Busted! Indeed... Posted by: photon's feather
» thanks for the comment SL Posted by: doctorsquared
religion is kind of like the Drug War
Posted by: permanentilt on Aug 14, 2009 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both are totally full of shit, moral travesties that persecute and condemn. They have absolutely no basis in rational, logical thought. The only way to perpetuate such immense lies is to tell even bigger and bigger lies and throw more and more money at them.

I am not worried though, eventually all bubbles pop, I just "pray" that I will still be alive when these two do!

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» Religion is a drug. Posted by: Karlh
Dennis Murphy
Posted by: dennis.b.murphy on Aug 14, 2009 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For my job, I often travel right past the exit for the Creation Museum. On one such trip, on the way home to west Michigan, I thought I'd visit for kicks. But when I got to the lobby and looked at the entry fees, I was decidedly against giving them twenty bucks simply to be amused!

Simple admission is as follows
Adult (13–59 yrs) $21.95
Senior (60 yrs & up) $16.95
Children (5–12 yrs) $11.95


Yearly memberships are
Individual $69.95
Senior (ages 60+) $59.95
Child (ages 5-12) $29.95
Family (household) $159.95

Family membership at $160 ?!

I live in fairly conservative Grand Rapids, yet the local museum (Van Andel Museum- named after benefactor and Amay co-founder Jay Van Andel) is a decent museum with solid displays and really good rotating exhibits. The fees there?

Simple admission to the museum is
Adults $8
Child $3
Seniors $7

Basic Memberships
Individual – $35 For one Adult
Senior Citizen – $25 For ages 62+
Family/Grandparent +1 - $75


The Creationist museum is clearly profiting from a captive audience

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» no $$ from me Posted by: permanentilt
» RE: Dennis Murphy Posted by: teddy
» RE: Dennis Murphy Posted by: paulaH
» Price or Suggested Donation??? Posted by: strahlungsamt
The Flintstones LIVES!!!
Posted by: xvictor on Aug 14, 2009 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are deluded folks who believe the "The Flintstones" cartoon series actually happened! It's a show where dinos and man live, play and work with each other in this imaginative long-played series. But that's exactly what it is - imaginative. I wouldn't put it past these folks if the show was also exhibited in this "museum".

Of course, one can also say the Flintstone folks and their ilk exploits and derive cheap labor from these ancient beasts.

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» RE: The Flintstones LIVES!!! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: The Flintstones Posted by: zipper696
Need cancer treatment? Run off to your local Creationist museum and pray!
Posted by: zooeyhall on Aug 14, 2009 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So these people think the scientific method is a scam. Because the scientific method of testing, looking at the facts, proposing hypotheses, peer review, etc to arrive at conclusions is what developed the theory of Evolution.

So if that's all a load of horsehit, then what do these xtians do when they have cancer or heart trouble? Are they going to trust the drugs that are available to treat these conditions---drugs developed under the same scientific method mentioned above that they despise so? Or will they run-off to the nearest Creationisim Museum and pray in the lobby for the Great Sky God to magically cure them?

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artie
Posted by: rtmyth on Aug 14, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion and politics in America depend on the ignorance,gullibility,superstition,infantilism, etc of the masses.

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Such irony
Posted by: paulaH on Aug 14, 2009 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the irony of these Christians who hate science sending vitriolic emails and blogging against science on their computer via the internet while drinking coffee made with their coffeemaker and sitting under their air conditioning. They will then call their friends on the phone to bitch about how evil science is and that it should be abolished or jump in their car to drive over to their buddy's place so they can plan ways to stop science in its tracks.

Morons.

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The mark of Ham
Posted by: carlie on Aug 14, 2009 9:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
don't think for a second the designers of this museum don't know what they were doing by spotlighting the division between Ham and Enoch. The political protests, teabaggers, birthers and so on that are being backed by so many evangelicals show quite clearly that white nationalism is a huge issue to the fundamentalists. It is naive to think that the poster you pointed out was an unfortunate "fluke."

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another view
Posted by: Levon on Aug 14, 2009 10:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. (Siddhartha Gautama - The Buddha), 563-483 B.C.

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DrJimmy
Posted by: DrJimmy03 on Aug 14, 2009 10:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NYTimes ran a great piece about scientists visiting the place, published 6/30/09. AlterNet's BLogBot won't accept the length of the full link, but it's easy to find the story.

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» RE: DrJimmy Posted by: pauldd
The fruits of the tree of knowledge.
Posted by: Habsberg on Aug 14, 2009 10:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently listened to an audio book by Bakunin called God and the State (1916). He argues that Jehovah must be evil because he forbid Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree knowledge. I believe in a good God and that life is a gift. Perhaps these folks want to live without the benefits of the fruits of the tree of knowledge.

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Hamm learned everything from watchin' TeeVee
Posted by: sausage on Aug 14, 2009 11:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Heck, everybody who grew up watchin' TeeVee in the Sixties knows humans and dinosaurs lived together.

There was the "Flintstones," and "It's About Time." What else ya need?

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If God didn't want me to think, he wouldn't have given me a brain.
Posted by: dkm on Aug 14, 2009 1:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...just a collection of props to illustrate an unquestioned myth."

He's learned from bitter experience that if he tries to argue based on fact, he is going to lose badly, even look ridiculous. Hence this new tactic.

When Kenny boy comes before God and has to defend the way he has contorted and twisted what God did for him, I can see God shaking his head and saying, "Kenny, Kenny, Kenny. I gave you a brain and look what you did with it. Remember the parable about the three servants who were given pieces of gold to trade while their master went on a trip? Remember what happened to the one who took his piece of gold and buried it? Do you think that parable only applied to money?"

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creationist to head NIH
Posted by: gypsyken on Aug 14, 2009 2:06 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The scariest aspect of the creationist movement is that much biomedical research in the U.S. is to be governed by a man who not only believes in creation, he loudly proclaims it to be true. Francis Collins, Obama's pick to head NIH, believes that god created the universe, then endowed men with souls. (He doesn't hold, as Ham and the Young Earth creationists do, that the earth is not more than 6,000 years old, presumably evading that in the way that other non-Young-Earth creationists do, holding that the years recounted in the Bible are god-years, which are many times longer than human years.)

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» And how many dog years is that? Posted by: Steven Wanzell
The simple, bottom-line conclusion...
Posted by: frantic1971 on Aug 14, 2009 2:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to these wierd creationist museums.

It's religion, NOT science.

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don't blindly follow what anyone says
Posted by: guns4everyone on Aug 14, 2009 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It does strike me as odd that the science-types whose science barely extends beyond the Chain Rule in Calculus are the most hystrionic in their condemnation of any contrarian POV, whether it be 911 truthers, holocaust deniers, creationists, or just people who attend church on Sunday. And their hysterical appeals are rarely articulate enough advance the cause of reason which they ostensibly are defending.

Amoung those with a bit more upstairs there is a marked reluctance to engage in accrimonious and fruitless debate with whatever dogma's at hand. Like Galileo before the Inquisition, they just mutter under their breath, "E pur si muove!" (yet it moves).

Likewise, those whose religiousity is least likely to result in waving little bookies and convulsing in seizures, are also more likely to be found volunteering assistance to the less fortunate than trying to shut down abortion clinics or driving cross-country to the Museum of Ham.

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» RE: So, what are you saying? Posted by: shanaza
» And here's some advice for you... Posted by: Steven Wanzell
Unquestioning Faith as a Tool of Control
Posted by: pauldd on Aug 14, 2009 11:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe these religious charlatans buy their own BS. They play to the ignorant masses with a well defined goal. Once you can be convinced not the believe your own eyes, you can be persuaded to believe any claim made by those in positions of "authority". This is used as a tool to gain control of a segment of the population with the express intent of leveraging it into political power. How else can one explain the "birther" phenomenon, tea baggers and the sincere outrage (of some) at congressional town-halls about health care legislation based on nonexistent or totally misrepresented provisions (e.g. "death panels").

This may seem a joke to the rational left (and rational right... if you can accept that that's not an oxymoron) but the threat should not be taken lightly. Fascism in knocking at the door in the US now and it's quite possible that the folks behind this museum are not crazy but that they are hungry for power, influence and control.

On a different but related note - I've been to the Holocaust museum in LA a few times (if you can go, you should). The main floor is structured in a similar fashion to the creation museum in that there is a sequence you follow to see the history of Hitler's rise to power and the growth of the Nazi party which culminates in targeting and ghettoization of the Jews and ultimately the systematic destruction of millions of lives in concentration camps. The method used is a very effective tool to help visitors understand how otherwise "good" people within a society could stand by and allow things to get so out of hand.

It's a profoundly emotional and an essential educational experience for all. It's the antithesis of this ignorance-based creation museum. But it's also a warning about how we must be ever vigilant and NEVER write off something like this creation museum as a harmless prank or redneck cultural curiosity.

Sara Robinson has a couple of Alternet articles recently posted that you must read. Also, Naomi Wolf has done some great work worth reading on Fascist movements.

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» Been there, done what? Posted by: pauldd
Onward, Christian Docents!
Posted by: Steven Wanzell on Aug 14, 2009 11:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hilarious! Yet, tragic. Could this be a front for a militia (Blackwater, again?) recruitmrent center.

I can't stop mocking!!! America has yet another cavernous public humiliation.

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takin one for the team...
Posted by: Dyolfknip on Aug 15, 2009 2:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just want to say thanks to anyone who goes there and provides photos of this place so that the rest of us don't have to satiate our shocked curiosity as to what could possibly be inside this farce.

The time and money you lost there will prevent so many others a similar ordeal.

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Holy Jumpin' Tyranosaurus Rex!
Posted by: jmmartin on Aug 15, 2009 6:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All you have to know about this place to avoid like the plague is that the exhibits posit that our species is only 6,000 years old and that all of the animals, including man, were put on earth by a "creator" in one week's time. This means that man walked with dinosaurs. You'd think they never heard of carbon dating. (No, that's not dinner and a movie, folks.)

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» Don't invoke.... Posted by: Bbear41
A Classic
Posted by: themama on Aug 15, 2009 7:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kissing Hank's Ass

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

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Just a word to the future visitors of the Creation Museum.
Posted by: ToMMaN on Aug 17, 2009 5:51 AM   
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Hi gang.
I know as scientific minds we are curious of our surroundings and all we survey. Having said that, I will now say this.

I am curious of many buildings I see in my current location on the planet's surface. The list is long:
Fraternal Order of the Eagles
Tabernacles
Synagogues
Police Stations
Hospitals
Masonic Lodges
and the list goes on and on. Of course, many would welcome me in with open arms and others not so comfortably.

But I try to use some measure of intuitiveness and not expect that my every idea or philosophical stances to be respected.

And none of these organizations demand that you come inside to see if they agree with you. Sure the use of tasers or guards is a bit much in the case of the Creation Museum, but once inside the confines of the establishment, Freedom of Speech and Expression should be respected from both sides. And if local law enforcement is not amicable then site Title 10 Section 333 of the United States Code Annotated that gives the Federal government the power to step in and protect the privileges and rights of American citizens no matter where they are in the country.
There is no way you can beat the Creationist movement by feeding into the negative aspects, since mainly Creationism is not based on empirical analysis process but very much so on the Dogma of the times in respect to those who are not looking for the answer to How? When? Where? Mankind stepped on to the scene. Science does not address Who? or Why? in respect the beginning of time or Humanity. See that is the problem, as long as we understand there are limitations to the theories on both sides, we can one day walk out of the darkness and into the light.

I hope my comment will not be construed in a negative tonality, because that is not my intention. But it will be interesting to see any retorts at all because I try to be as open-minded on this subject. I also want to be enlightened by others in the forum also.

My overall stance on the Creation Museum is that they cannot make you come inside or stay.

And as we have seen anyone can organize a public march or demonstration within local ordinances and if someone is offended then the phrase in the Supreme Court is "Just don't look and listen." That is what I do when I am getting flack on my theories of Panspermia.

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we protest for dir
Posted by: itouch backup on Aug 17, 2009 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
M2TS Converter

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Replace "museum"
Posted by: xmvince on Aug 18, 2009 2:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Replace "museum" with "theme park" and you might be a little bit more accurate.

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Ken Hamming it up
Posted by: thisizrob on Aug 21, 2009 7:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I once attended one of Ham's followers meetings in my small city. A lot of what he said made some sense BUT, when i mentioned the name of someone who had quite different ides to Ham on certain points, this fellow was so quick with his vitriol, I just could not believe that he was supposedly a representative of a "christian" organisation.

What this fellow did not know was that I personally knew the man that he was condemning. A man who does not stop at just accepting (arm chair like) what others have to say. He goes and personally checks most of his information out just to be surte that it is correct.
Ham's mob were stating that "God" had created the total univers in just six days and that on the fourth He had made over four billion Galaxies which have somewhere around four billion stars in each. When I asked the question of what God had been doing beofre 6,000 years ago, I got some drivel that was not even worth remembering.

Now folks may say i am off the planet when I say that I do believe that God made our sun, moon and the rest of the planets in our little corner of the universe and that there was the possibility that he may have also made our Milky Way in that time, but I just can not accept Ham's idea that a loving God was sitting around for billions of years of time doing nothing or that for some reason (unexplainable by these people) that God suddenly decided to make the universe and all of it just 6,000 years ago.

I am aware that there are many scientists who do believe in a Special Creation and many have asked questions of the Evolutionist fraternity and got very similar answers as were given by the "Hammites". In other words, "IF you do not accept what we are saying then you are a moron". Maybe, just maybe, that is where they picked up this stupidity.

When we propose some theory about something, Is it not reasonable to give others the right to propose a different theory to ours? From my understanding of evolution, small as it may be, I have been given to understand that each evolutionary improvement must be for a better operation of the organism. This sounds fine until one starts looking at the composition of creatures. How can something just suddenly happen where a number of items MUST happen at the same time for the next evolutionary point to stand strong?

To use just one little creature, the Bomadier beetle. the extremely sophisticated mechanisms for the system to work, all had to be there together at the one time. If one of the systems was not yet perfected, the little critter would have blown himself to kingdom come the very first time that he went to use it. Of course, there will be so many differenbt explanations which are much like Ham's explanations (because the Bible says so) are just as stupid and idiotic.

I have some other explanation to add to this so will add it as another article immediately.

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More Hamming it up
Posted by: thisizrob on Aug 21, 2009 7:48 AM   
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This is a bit like how medicine works, (science supposedly) If you have a pain somewhere then there has to be a drug to fix it or you just can't get well. How many bodies have been built by just using drugs? I learnt at school (a long time ago) that the body was built using nutrition. In recent years I have learnt a whole lot more about how the body works in synergy. The operation is fantastic but ask the average person and they have not the smallest shmick of an idea how it works. When they have something that is affeting their body, they believe that there has to be some drug to fix the problem. So much for our wonderful education.

Most problems are caused by a lack of necessary nutrition. When the proper required nutrition is not in place, there is degeneration that sets in. There will be all sorts of hypothesis put forward as to the cause of the problem but like evolution, it is only a hypothesis and not necessarily the real cause. The real cause is the lack of the proper building blocks of certain nutrition and one can hypothesize as much as they like from as many different directions as they like but they will not get the right answer simply because they are asking the WRONG questions.

One can not place any faith in the carbon dating theory becuse it was shot up the spout many years ago. Even the socalled scientific mob do not believe it because it can only really work out an age accurately to about just over three to four thousand years ago. Maybe a bit over that but not five thousand years. Then they will only accept something that looks like it might back up their theory and not necessarily accurate.

There are so many circular theories that ones head spins. How old are the fossils that are found? Well, that can be determined by the age of the rocks that they are in. Wonderful, Exciting, but how can one determine how old the rocks are? Well, that can easily be determined by the types of fossils found in them. Hang on a minute, that is using the same logic as Ken Ham,(because the Bible says so) Any thinking and questioning individual looks at that idiotic statement and says, Well you show me where it says so in the Bible? Stupid question, what do you want that information for? Are you one of those idiots that believe in evolution?
No sir, I just want the evidence to give an answer to one of my Evolutionary Friends. WHAT! You have friends in the Evolution camp??? You are an idiot for even talking to them!

Well it seems that sometimes the two different sides use the same stupid statements.Well, the Grand Canyon took hundreds of thousands of years to be carved out to what it is today. Funny thing was that a somewhat similar type of gorge was carved out in just a few days after the eruption of Mount St Hellens.

This whole thing just gets more and more ridiculous as time goes on. There is this pseudo science being promulgated by the Creationists and the Evolutionists and each call the other stupid and totally non scientific.

Ho Hum and yawn. As i look at nature and all its beauty, the stars and the glaxies, the sin and degredation of this planet, when I study the Scriptures and fail to find most of the claims of the so called Creationists and the actual evidence that men have found and been ridiculed for which solidly cacks Creation but these so called Ham ites do not accept, not a bit of wonder that thinking people have come to think that maybe evolution is the only way. Stuffed about evidence is the best way to convert folks to something else. I think Ham needs to get down and study his Bible properly and give proper answers to the thinking people. He so vehemently talks about the six days of Creation but just mention to him about the Sabbath and he gets real hot under the collar. Methinks the man has a forked tongue.

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signing papers, guards w/tasers? totally not my experience
Posted by: 2snak on Aug 22, 2009 7:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of course, I wasn't part of 280+ group. Interesting article, but I wasn't asked to sign anything. I didn't notice any guards at all actually. (oops, one. outside.) Just the guides who were looked like fundamentalist church members dressed in safari outfits. I didn't follow a script. I just picked a direction of 3 or 4 and walked, out of order probably since I didn't note a creation to salvation to revelation theme. I meandered around the various displays. Was surprised that the dino displays had dual plaques. One real, one religious. The Adam and Eve one w/ all the artificial plants reminded me of Bass Pro Shop and their plant and animal displays through the store. The only thing I found roll your eyes heavy heavy handed was the 'society without god' display w/looped video of teenage girls talking about getting an abortion (good idea really), boys watching porn, displays of slum areas, I forget what else.. the rest is a quiet smile at the cognitive dissonance going on. I mean you go in there with your eyes open, knowing you are getting propaganda. People drive across the country to have their beliefs that they know are beliefs not necessarily supported by facts, stroked and validated. They preach to the choir. I suspect the only 'schools' going there are Christian ones. And w/ "Creation" in the title, I can't believe anyone thinks they are getting an unbiased scientific treatment of history.

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lovenice
Posted by: sunrise1 on Sep 3, 2009 1:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice article, very helpful. thanks!!


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