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The Primary Point of the Occupation of Iraq is the Occupation Itself

Posted by Joshua Holland, AlterNet at 10:00 AM on November 23, 2007.


Note to my rationalist friends: there will always be a new rationale for staying.
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Over in Iraq special coverage, I'm running a piece by Jeffrey Feldman, who argues that we're about to see a monumental shift in the discourse around Iraq. Here's the nut of it:

The change can be summed up in 4 simple words:

troops leave, violence drops

As the deafening hubbub of propaganda drowns out every attempt to talk real policy change on Iraq, this simple descriptive formula--troops leave, violence drops--cuts through it all…

The British pullout from Basra, and the subsequent logic of violence dropping as a result of that pullout, will change the debate again by reimposing a simple logic of up and down, in and out.

The up-and-down-in-and-out logic of this description is more powerful than any protest argument about the war to date, and has an almost unlimited potential to sweep through both the broadcast media and face-to-face conversations that make up American political debate.

He's got much more to say, so be sure to read the whole thing.

I don't mean to single out Jeffrey Feldman here -- he's a good guy, and a contributor to AlterNet from time to time -- but I want to highlight the piece because it's such a good example of the kind of perfectly rationalist analysis that dominates in progressive America. There's a persistent belief that if opponents of the occupation could only win the "debate" over Iraq on the merits, then a U.S. withdrawal will somehow follow.

There are a number of problems with this idea, not least of which is the fact that to a very significant degree we've already won the debate -- majorities of Americans now say that it is no longer possible for the U.S. to "win" in Iraq (whatever that means) and favor a timetable for pulling troops out -- but the public's views have so far had only minimal impact on the foreign policy elite.

But more than that, the commonly-held rationalist analysis denies a crucially important reality: that for various (and differing) reasons, a significant portion of Washington's strategic class is determined to maintain a "soft" occupation of Iraq for a long time to come, and that means that regardless of how soundly opponents of the occupation thrash whatever the argument du jour for keeping troops in the country may be, there will always be a new and pressing need to maintain U.S. forces in the country. The goalposts will always be perfectly mobile, and they'll keep shifting until something changes structurally.

The point of the occupation, at this point, is the occupation itself, and I'm not sure why so many people fail to see that. After all, the U.S.-led "coalition" could, reasonably, claim to have successfully:

  • Guaranteed that Iraq does not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons, including those which Donald Rumsfeld said were known to be "in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat"
  • Deposed the evil dictator (the one we helped to power and supported for three decades), and killed his devil-spawn sons

Yet after both of those previous rationales for keeping U.S. boots on the ground evaporated, there was no widespread call for declaring victory and pulling out. Instead, U.S. forces became necessary to A) keep Iraqis from slaughtering one another wholesale, and, later, B) to keep "al Qaeda in Iraq" in check. Both arguments were, in my view, ridiculous on their face -- "unembedded" journalist Dahr Jamail addressed the first one best when he said: "The bogus idea that if the U.S. leaves things will worsen is both inherently racist and ignorant," and Raed Jarrar and I have argued that only the occupation itself has allowed al Qaeda in Iraq to operate -- but they were accepted by the media and political establishments as legitimate rationales in their time.

And the dance continues to this day. Last month, the military declared that it had defeated al Qaeda in Iraq, yet no new calls for withdrawal followed the announcement.

And just as the disappearance of one excuse for staying in Iraq has had zero impact on the discourse, there's no reason to expect, that a drop in the levels of violence in Iraq is likely to cause a shift in the national debate. Consider for a moment how the decrease is being framed in the traditional media. The following, from Matt Frei of the BBC's Washington bureau, is typical of the narrative emerging this week:

Compared to the beginning of the year, attacks against Iraqi civilians have declined by 55% in the country as a whole and by 75% in Baghdad, according to US military figures confirmed by the UN…

Military commanders on the ground are very careful not to crow about the successes. Nor is the White House doing so. They are hoping that the facts will eventually speak for themselves.

The idea of the White House allowing anything resembling the facts to "speak for themselves" is preposterous -- we're talking about the same administration that used a plastic turkey for a Thanksgiving photo-op in Iraq. One can choose to believe that they're not hyping the drop in violence with the same gusto that they've spun past "benchmarks" and "milestones" of "success," as does the BBC's Frei ("In the past, boastful words have turned to dust almost as soon as they were uttered"), but the idea of rhetorical caution among supporters of the occupation is, simply, incongruous with everything we've seen from the war's supporters during the past four years.

The truth is that the drop off in violence poses a serious messaging problem for Iraq hawks. In arguing again and again that U.S. troops need to remain in order to keep some portion of the violence in check, they've painted themselves into a rhetorical corner. The situation is now ripe for someone in Congress, perhaps one of the presidential candidates, to declare victory in Iraq and call for the troops to come home. That would be a very appealing message for an American public that doesn't approve of the war but is also averse to losing.

If the drop in violence persists -- history suggests that absent a broader and widely accepted political settlement it won't -- the next justification for maintaining forty or fifty thousand troops in Iraq will be to check the creation of a "Shiite Crescent" in the region, led by Iran. That new rationale will be linked, but somewhat independent of any charge of Iranian "meddling" in Iraq. It will never be fully explained why the American public should give a shit about the emergence of that Shiite Crescent, and most reporters won't even think to ask the question -- it will simply become conventional wisdom.

What our rationalist friends need to understand is that A) the reasons for the invasion still stand today, and B) the concept of not "wasting lives" -- soldiers' lives -- is sufficiently powerful to keep our troops in Iraq for the 50 years that Bush has predicted.

As regular readers know, I think all monocausal explanations for what motivated the U.S. invasion of Iraq miss the mark. In even a nominal democracy, no policy as serious as an unprovoked attack of a defenseless country like Iraq happens with just one constituency pushing for it. And all the various goals that originally motivated different constituencies to push for the attack -- whether it was opening the Iraqi economy to foreign investment, selling the DoD gazillions of dollars in military hardware, securing our energy supply chain, compensating for the loss of military bases in Saudi Arabia, taking out a supposed threat to Israel, etc., -- they're all still as relevant today as they were in 2003. In some cases, even more so.

And the idea that pulling troops out of Iraq -- conceding "defeat" -- would mean that the American blood shed over there was in vain (Iraqi lives don't enter into the equation), is not going to go away while it retains any rhetorical power. Progressives need to grasp the simple fact that we didn't invade Iraq to bring peace or stability or democracy to the Iraqi people -- we invaded to advance what are known, I think euphemistically, as "U.S. interests" -- and we're not staying for any other reason.

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Joshua Holland is an editor and senior writer at AlterNet.


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Damn straight !!!
Posted by: StoneRiley on Nov 23, 2007 11:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Damn straight !!! Every point in this essay is true. And the only way to stop the war is for Congress to stop funding it. Then we have to accept the coming change in society where war will be socially unacceptable.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Damn straight !!! Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Why is the congress... Posted by: nightgaunt
So, what to do?
Posted by: Knowmad on Nov 23, 2007 11:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...a significant portion of Washington's strategic class is determined to maintain a "soft" occupation of Iraq for a long time to come"

If that is true then what, if anything, can actually be done to get the occupying troops - all of them - out...realistically?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: So, what to do? Posted by: mwildfire
» RE: So, what to do? Posted by: pero
» First of all... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: First of all... Posted by: nightgaunt
Now put it all together...911 for truth
Posted by: 2dogarage on Nov 23, 2007 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So Josh, if you're so convinced (and rightly so) that our government would go to war on false pretenses, thereby essentially murdering thousands of our own soldiers and countless Iraqis for all our myriad "interests" in the middle east, then why is it such a leap of faith to think that the current regime in Washington would not orchestrate an attack on it's own citizens in order to justify said "invasion of a sovereign country for it's natural resources" (illegal under international law)?

Marvin Bush (GW little bro) was CEO for the security co. owned by the Carlysle Group for the world trade towers that came down at freefall speed into their own footprint (don't forget #7 not hit by a plane) resulting in an insurance settlement for the new owner, Larry Silverstein, of 7 billion dollars on the backs of the 3,000 or so who were trapped in their buildings with inadequate radio communication systems. And not one word of protest from any group, the media or political party, no one blinked an eye.

It took Norad 80 minutes to put fighter jets into the air instead of the 8 or 10 minutes it should have taken because of the confusion caused by the fact that there were training exercises going on elsewhere that simulated "an attack whereby someone flies a plane into a building" even though Rice and GW both said to our faces that "no one could have predicted that someone would fly a plane into a building."

I'm just so disappointed that not even Alternet will take on this story and so are essentially complicit in the coverup and yet you have the temerity to rail at the mainstream media for their failure to report the truth. Or some of you, even Noam Chomskey (my heart breaks), have the unbelievable gall to insist that IT DOESN'T MATTER who took down the buildings. It f***ing matters.

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» RE: Ha ha ha..Hilarious! Posted by: Mycos
» RE: no kidding, a "Whitmar"? Posted by: channing
» More truthiness Posted by: brunowe
» RE: More truth, brunowe style Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: More lies, brunowe style Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: More lies, brunowe style Posted by: brunowe
» RE: More truth, brunowe style Posted by: channing
» RE: More truth, brunowe style Posted by: channing
» I'd just point one thing out ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» What's this? Posted by: 2dogarage
» Gravity versus Resistance Posted by: postoil
» RE: What's this? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What's this? Posted by: 2dogarage
» Thanks for proving my point ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Thanks for proving my point ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I give up--for now. Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: I give up--for now. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Of course he has an agenda Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Of course he has an agenda Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Of course he has an agenda Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Emphasis on "scientist"? Posted by: channing
» RE: part 2 "qualified": Posted by: channing
» The way I see it... Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Now put it all together...911 for truth Posted by: sudsy49@hotmail.com
» Those are called squibs Posted by: 2dogarage
» Suspension of Belief Posted by: 2dogarage
Well said, Mr. Holland!
Posted by: LeftWright on Nov 23, 2007 1:39 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The title of this piece says it all.

Thank you for writing this. Hopefully, Keith Olbermann and others on mainstream tv will begin making this obvious point in the near future (I'm not holding my breath).

Now, will you agree that, absent the events of 9/11/01, the invasion and occupation of Iraq would've been impossible to sell to the American people?

I hope that you and yours are well and that you had a joyful Thanksgiving.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

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» RE: Well said, Mr. Holland! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Well said, Mr. Holland! Posted by: mwildfire
joshua holland
Posted by: cwilsondrum on Nov 23, 2007 3:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you are so right. and here'another thought. those fucking criminals aren't pulling troops out of Iraq or doing anything else.except what pleases them. they have to be shown the door by force(impeachment ). but don't hold your breath. congress is a bunch of pussies. and guess what? the next election? It's gonna be rigged,but ucovered,by guess who? the current thieves and bush can declare a national emergency, and nobody will give a fuck. we're gonna have a real king! anybody heard anyone complain about Pakistan????? cell phones that make pancakes....black friday...stupid is as stupid does.

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joshua holland
Posted by: cwilsondrum on Nov 23, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you are so right. and here'another thought. those fucking criminals aren't pulling troops out of Iraq or doing anything else.except what pleases them. they have to be shown the door by force(impeachment ). but don't hold your breath. congress is a bunch of pussies. and guess what? the next election? It's gonna be rigged,but ucovered,by guess who? the current thieves and bush can declare a national emergency, and nobody will give a fuck. we're gonna have a real king! anybody heard anyone complain about Pakistan????? cell phones that make pancakes....black friday...stupid is as stupid does.

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Elections??
Posted by: Toke on Nov 24, 2007 3:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who cares if your elections are rigged.
Smart companies support both parties to be sure they own the winner.

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» It's not the party.. Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE:just deserts Posted by: Mycos
We Will Leave Iraq...
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway on Nov 24, 2007 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the last drop of oil has been burned up in our giant SUVs.

People need to realize that a vote for the Democrats or Republicans is a vote to stay in Iraq until the last drop of oil has been burned up in our giant SUVs.

If you want out of Iraq earlier, then your only choice is a third party. I'm going Green Party. I expect my choice to lose, and the war to continue, but I['m not going to vote for continued war, just because I love a certain party. Thanks, but no thanks.

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» RE: We Will Leave Iraq... Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: We Will Leave Iraq... Posted by: ad132
» Your Vote ... Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» I agree with you... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
Add the Corporate Media to Your List of Beneficiaries who
Posted by: rjgwood on Nov 24, 2007 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
actively played a role in the selling of the Iraq invasion.

The corporate media each tried to position themselves as THE source for the news, hyped this war and pumped the American people to a blood lust for Iraq to get the best ratings to improve their bottom line.

The way they embedded themselves with the troops, allowing the Pentagon to create the framework for their perception of the war violated every tenet of journalistic integrity and independence. Their graphics, music and pomp employed in their discussions leading up to the war, not to mention the overwhelming number of "pundits" supporting the war, and their refusal to question this administration, and their continual repetition of administration lies regarding the intelligence and the war's opponents all declare the press' guilt in acting as the administration's mouth piece in order to have access to the war coverage.

Goebbels could not have orchestrated better.

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We are not leaving, ever...
Posted by: Tim Brown on Nov 24, 2007 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks, Josh for pointing to the real the reasons we now occupy Iraq - military presence in the region outside of Israel to replace our Saudi bases; making Iraq an example of successful privatization (the so-called "Washington consensus"); and, of course, keeping the vast untapped Southern Iraqi oil reserves off limits to the rest of the planet.

Some pundits might argue that the citizenry is not mature enough to understand the reality of
an America without access to oil - the economy will grind to a halt, mass enemployment, starvation, riots...all that ugly Armageddon stuff the right-wing preachers are pitching all the time.

But I think that our current crop of political leaders understand it quite clearly and are doing their best to keep the focus elsewhere. Knowing the Bush team's motives and personal histories, it is easy to see their obsession with the "War on Teror" theme:

If citizens were engaged in a real conversation about the "end of oil" they might come to a different conclusion than our leaders on what to do about it. They might decide that it's high time we moved to major energy sources other than oil. So might the rest of the planet.

This would not position the oilmen well in the world. If they lose their monopoly on energy they lose their bargaining chip with other nations. They lose their cash cow. They lose their excuse to loot the U.S. Treasury. They lose their reason for supressing citizen's rights. They lose their justification for secrecy. Prison time is also a prospect.

The neocons started this and they will fight to the last breath of our troops to see it through. They take the long view - in three decades nobody will remember how they got all that power, they'll just accept the fact that they have it.

In a nutshell, they are not going to relinquish their power peacefully. This begs the hard question: what can we as citizens reasonably do about this?

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Muddled Thinking
Posted by: hoyarugger on Nov 24, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To compare the British pullout from Basra to a full pullout from Iraq is disingenuous at best. Basra, in the South, is solidly Shiite territory. The violence in Iraq is chiefly sectarian and the valid concern for a full US troop withdrawal is that the Shiite and Sunnis will massacre one another for control of the country and its resources (it's of course far more complicated as there are many subdivisions of adversaries). If this were to occur, which most experts believe most probable, then it is in this chaos that a group like Al Qaeda is likely to thrive.

This is not to argue that we must or should stay. I am for withdrawal, though not immediate. Still I believe that my professors in college were correct in insisting that one must be courageous in laying out the alternative views- then go and pick them to pieces.

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» RE: Muddled Thinking Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Muddled Thinking Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Good title. It fits.
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Nov 24, 2007 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

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We the people are soooooo stupid!!!!
Posted by: dsmidiman on Nov 24, 2007 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it is time for all the people who were so stupid, manipulatable, and just too damn lazy to do any research and voted for the pack of Hitler wannabes currently running this country to stand up and except part of the responsibility for what is happening in this country and around the world today. Just look at what has happened since the current administration has taken control of this country.

We have gone from riches to rags monetarily, morally, spiritually and just about every other facet of our lives in 7 short years!!! Our once great nation has gone from a wealthy, compassionate, admired by most in the rest of the world super power to a bankrupt, percieved evil global dictatorship wannabe hated by most and targeted by some around the world. It is just down right dispicable what has happened in the last seven years in this country and is still happening today!!!

This country and it's govt. has been bought and paid for by criminals who are drowning in thier own evils and taking the rest of us down with them using OUR hard earned dollars!!!

We all set around and passed judgement and watched while a sitting president was tared and feathered and impeached for doing something that had absolutely nothing to do with running this country and lied about it because IT WAS NOBODY"S BUSINESS BUT HIS AND THE WOMAN OF LEGAL AGE AND SOUND MIND THAT WILLINGLY PARTICIPATED!! Nobody died!!! nobody went broke !!! nobody lost any of thier civil liberties!!! nothing effected any of us. Yet we sat around and told god awful stories and joked about what happened. We got all righteous and passed judgement and eventually allowed the guy to be impeached!!!

Every single individual who voted for GWB and the Hitler wannabe sidekick Dick Cheney should go to Washington and stand on the front lawn of the White House and insist that these two crazy men and all thier fear driven cronies get impeached or resign immediately!!!

We have nobody to blame but ourselves here people. We can talk conspiracy theories and such till the cows come home but the bottom line is WE--US--YOU--ME are to blame because for whatever reason we set back and allowed this to happen. The only thing that is going to change it is if WE--US--YOU--ME turn out in the voting lines, peaceful demonstrations, participate in surveys, do anything you can do legally and peacefully to get your voice heard.

I believe that this country IS made up of honest, hard working compassionate people if given the opportunity to be that way. We thrive physically, emotionally and spiritually in an environment driven by honesty compassion and hard work.

I believe that society as a whole (even globally) is at a major cross road in current times. Which road we (the humane race) decide to take is a choice we ALL have to make. Personally, I'm not liking the road we've been driving on at all.... greed, power and fear are not good sources of fuel at all.... in my opinion anyway.

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Truly a Dark Age for America
Posted by: phshafe on Nov 24, 2007 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your point about the American public's complicity in the horrors that have befallen us in the past several years is all too true. Morris Berman researched and documented it admirably in his recent book, "Dark Ages America". If tens of millions of us who damned well know what's going on by now really wanted to spare Iraqi blood at the expense of our oil-based standard of living, we would have exerted a Vietnam era-like pressure and likely, the U.S. would have exited Iraq long before now. There is a saying that those who sacrifice honor for gain will end up with neither. This impresses me as America's epitaph.

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The real rationale vs. the puppet show rationale
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 24, 2007 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why did we go and invade Iraq, really? It is indeed true that there are no monocausal explanations, but here are the leading ones:

1) The country was controlled by a dictator who was unfriendly to U.S. and British corporate oil interests. This was evident from the Cheney Energy Task Force documents that listed all the foreign contractors who had contracts for Iraqi oil.

2) There was rising international pressure to lift the sanctions on Iraq. If that had happened, the French, the Chinese and the Russians would all have established a physical presence in Iraq, and the military option would be impossible.

3) The U.S. wanted control of the region - permanent military bases in Iraq would allow the U.S. to exert military control over the region - and the plan was always to get control of Iranian gas and oil after Iraq was captured.

4) Saddam was also pushing for a switch to the euro (he did this himself, and then the value of the euro shot up against the dollar). He would have agreed to set up an oil trading exchange in the Middle East, which would have cut the NYMEX and IPE (New York and London) traders and bankers out of the oil profits.

5) Finally, there is the U.S. military-industrial complex, including Halliburton, Kellogg Brown Root, Lockheed, Dyncorp, Bechtel, Fluor, Shaw, Washington Group, CH2M Hill, Perrini, Northrup Gruman, SAIC, Raytheon, etc. etc. etc. - They all knew they would make billions off of an invasion, and these are all cronies of the Bush-Cheney junta and of many Senators, such as Lieberman, Feinstein, and most of the Republicans.

So, those were the real reasons for the invasion and occupation. As the occupation faltered due to the angry resistance of many Iraqis (who did indeed understand all of the above), the U.S. government deliberately chose the El Salvador option - covert military terrrorism aimed at turning Sunnis against Shiites and weakening the Iraqi nationalist coalition. This was a deliberate campaign of terror targeting the Iraqi people, just as in El Salvador. Shock and Awe followed by horrific torture - make no mistake, that was a deliberate plan based on "divide and conquer."

In short, it was an illegal aggressive war aimed at seizing control of another country's resources - one that involved serious war crimes against the civilian population of Iraq. That's not palatable to the U.S. public, so the government and their allies in the press cooked up the following fake stories for their puppet show:

- Saddam had links to the 9/11, 9/18 and 10/9 terror attacks in the U.S. (Recall Powell's anthrax vial at the UN?)
- Saddam had developed biological and chemical weapons, including delivery systems, and was close to haveing nuclear-armed ballistic missiles.
- It was the "noble duty" of the U.S. to spread democracy in Iraq (but not in Saudi Arabia or the other Gulf monarchies)
- Saddam posed a great threat to Israel.

That's the reality vs. the government-press propaganda output.

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Mark my words!
Posted by: grassyknolluk on Nov 24, 2007 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US of A will NEVER leave Iraq!

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Iraq and occupation is extra jobs created by USA
Posted by: flymulla on Nov 24, 2007 5:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sir
We kept on harping all the time that the war was
1 Revenge on Kuwait attack by Saddam
2 there were no WMD so the farced war was for oil.
Let us examine the above. I fully trust Alan Greenspan as I have admired hi a lot. He could have been replaced but Dr. Bernanke but there was difference between two. One was macro economist the other micro economist.
When I read the books in American edition on economist there is a very little spoken about the English economist. Either it is Keynes or Thaterism that of course id same and the Adam smith still tops all.
This is no moral of the Blaireism and the best prize that was awarded was/is to the Vice president dick Cheney who had already contracted to rebuild the Iraq infrastructures. Boy and Colin Powel went right after sexing up the issues so bad that Tony Blaire is now sitting in the Middle East counting the bullets and the bottles that are spewed by the Palestinians and the bombs by Hezbollah, Al Mehdi party, Taliban, Israel and ducking the issues of ,a Who me, I never was in the war.
I like this oil saga.
No matter Bush said he was not depending on oil. The reason was he though that oil would flow through the Iraq pipeline and help him. The way I see the moral of the politicians, all lied a lot and now the date is set for the soldiers to come back end 2007.
What a relief. The dead body always comes afloat or the truth can never be hidden anywhere. It always comes one day. Here it is,
When I read the book Making Globalization Work, I am amazed at the back cover of the book that has all the goodies about the book, Globalization and its Discontents All have stated the book is great reading. I am confused why the comments are on the other book pasted on this book that states that, we can do it if we want to. Again like Thomas Friedman the book starts from the journey from India. Anything good about the globalization from India? I wonder.
That too talks of the controversial tax and payer. Rich out to pay more. The problem is no one listens.
The books are great that I must state.
I thank you.
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
Waterloo Commercial College Ltd
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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Is this supposed to be News?
Posted by: Number_6 on Nov 24, 2007 6:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anybody not in a coma knew what ersatz "war or terror" was about before the global shock and awe corporate mob rammed their “mission accomplished” into Afghanistan and Iraq.

Propping up old puppet Big Oil countries in the Mid East and making new ones (beachhead Iran) has been the plan for decades.

WARNING – corporate crime “war on terror” on the public nickel needs another snake oil 9/11 "attack" for yet more genocide.

Hang onto your wallets and wits if you’ve got any.

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» RE: hang on to your wallets Posted by: omnivore
» RE: They own the 'money.' Posted by: nightgaunt
"You progressives"?
Posted by: Mycos on Nov 24, 2007 7:43 PM   
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Who was saying all along that Iraq was the resulkt of a long-running, well-planned collusion between a number off extremely powerful interests, both in the States and around the world....most notably Israel?

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» RE: "I don't know, who said it? Posted by: nightgaunt
As Always
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 24, 2007 9:43 PM   
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excellent stuff joshua. i wish i had your gift for so accurately nailing the iraq fiasco.

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So, how do we change the way it goes?
Posted by: jackblack on Nov 24, 2007 9:57 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article makes some excellent points. So, what are we gonna do? The folks running the show have created a situation that’s gonna run its course, regardless of who wins an election in the US. And, the folks running the show have put themselves in a position to make a killing as the supply of oil diminishes. Supply goes down, price and profit goes up. And, while a great many people in America have been frightened into thoughtlessness and inactivity they’re getting ready to gouge themselves on the biggest profit scheme in the history of the planet.

The people running the show aren’t concerned about the lives or health of people anywhere. They don’t care about the impact of burning fossil fuels on global warming or the sustainability of resources. Progressives as they are referred to in this article are busy trying to create rational explanations or explain why actions are irrational. The people running the show don't care about explanations rational or irrational, their concerned about profit.

The people running the show know that the current rate of growth cannot be sustained by the planet and that burning fossil fuel is harming the environment. There thinking is: if there are too many people, some of those people are gonna have to die. It won't be them; it will be all the other people on the planet viewed as expendable, those that don't have any money. As the environment becomes more unfriendly they’ll buy the places where they think they can sit out the storms, they’ll be able to afford it; the expendable people of the world aren’t gonna be invited. Same goes for resources, while the rest of the human race is fighting in the streets for food and water; they’ll have bought and stored the lions share and ration out the rest to the expendables of the world, for price.

What keeps there little show on the road is not just the compliancy of progressives but the progressives belief that they can revive a sixties protest agenda and it’s gonna save the day, just in time. As soon as someone gives the word progressives will organize marches and protests; write letters to congress and utilize major media to get the word out.

The sixties are over and the folks running the show own the media, posses both parties of a two party system and have changed the rules about where and when you’ll protest; you can bet it will be where no one will see or hear what you have to say. And above all, the people running the show are just waiting and hoping that progressives will use public protests methods used in the sixties so they can smash them while, "The Whole Worlds Watching", as a statement of total undeniable control.

What the folks running the show don’t want you to know is that individual American citizens are, at least at this moment in time, still in control. They want you to be afraid and not think, about what would happen to the price of oil if the American people, big oils most valued customer, decides to stop buying gas? Not forever, just for, let’s say, one day every week. Do it and you’ll get their attention and, the undivided attention of the people we elect to government office.

If you want to change the way it goes, stop buying their stuff until they listen to what you have to say.

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generation x
Posted by: BornYesterdayUpAllNight on Nov 25, 2007 3:15 AM   
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Five years of war and disgrace for our nation. Five years of "enemy combatants." Five years of tapped phones. Five years of torture and interrogation. Five years of personal struggles.

I never supported the war. Being the son of a war veteran I never did buy into any war.

In world history we have "group discussions" about "current events" and I always voice my opinion. I tell people to read what's been signed into law and to actually pick up a history book and know that what's happening isn't anything new and that history repeats itself: business as usual.

The kids in my class don't care, don't know, or have no concern beyond normal high school bullshit.

But there is one kid that said something that made a lot of sense: "We need the oil"

And that shut me up.

The ends do not justify the means and I think that as long as there is no draft there will always be war hawks.

But don't we need the oil?

Again I don't support any war.

But whenever I think about the war now I think

What's the answer to that?

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» RE: generation x Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: generation x Posted by: jackblack
Or, as Wolfowitz, Libby, Kristol and Kagan put it 7 years ago....
Posted by: Mycos on Nov 25, 2007 5:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Though the immediate mission of those (US)forces is to enforce the no-fly zones over northern and southern Iraq, they represent the long-term commitment of the United States and its major allies to a region of vital importance.
Indeed, the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial
American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

That it wasn't about Hussein at all should have been widely known before we left. This is from RAD -- 2000

Ever wonder how the budget got savaged so swiftly? Okay..but humor me.

Here's their take on the economic woes of the Clinton years..

"Yet the extended paying of the “peace dividend” – and the creation of today’s federal budget surplus, the product of increased tax revenues and reduced defense spending – has created a severe “defense deficit,” totaling tens of billions of
dollars annually."

Didn't Wolfy get sent off to run the World Bank?!?? But then Bolton was sent off to the United Nations as well, so....

LOL...
I'm becoming more and more certain with every passing day that conservativism is a genetically based (hence it's pervasiveness)brain/behaviour disorder. One that perhaps was triggered by something entirely new to our senses but that we've adopted as a cultural norm,... sometime recently --- or recent to us /as a species/ I should say.

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"Its off the table..."
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Nov 25, 2007 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11 regurgitation; Osama; WMDs; nukes; oversight; impeachment; accountability; constitutional governance....all of it is "off the table." And why is that? Money talks, suckers walk. USA, Inc. thrives and will continue to thrive as long as the Federal Reserve puppets reign supreme. As you watch the endless football games on TV this season, pay close attention to the theme in virtually all corporate advertising, i.e. the American dumbass. Every portrayal is of a baboon getting hit in the head, or muttering some pitifully stupid remark, or performing a mindless task in robotic fealty to the ruling class. Will we be in Iraq indefinitely? Of course we will and it will stay that way until the citizenry demand the respect and dignity that can only be theirs when every segment of society succumbs to the rule of law. When that happens, the ads will change and so will the course of our governance.

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Well said and insightful. Thanks
Posted by: synapse on Nov 25, 2007 5:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I completely agree with all your points.

Voting or petitioning congress is completely ineffectual at this point and the media is wholly in the pocket of the corporatocracy.

Aaron Russo had the right idea of spreading the message and then organizing boycotts and national strikes. We also need to have sufficient numbers of people resisting the RFID identification system. I fear that too many Americans are too numb, distracted, brainwashed, or paralyzed by fear for a meaningful resistance to get off the ground.

Education needs to progress quickly. Maybe getting more people to watch Freedom to Fascism and Terrorstorm on the net or DVDs will spark further interest.

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