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Obama Condemns His Pastor's Controversial Remarks, Right Wing Bloggers Unconvinced

Posted by Jeff Fecke, Shakesville at 7:17 AM on March 15, 2008.


Will the right wing make an issue of this in the fall? Of course, but they'll be blowing it ridiculously out of proportion.
Obama on OLbermann

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In a characteristically eloquent post on HuffPo, Barack Obama blasts Rev. Jeremiah Wright:

I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

I pause only to note that I hope this means we won't be hearing any more "periodically down" nonsense from you, Barack. At any rate, Obama continues on to explain how he could remain in a church with a minister who sometimes says outlandish things:
As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It's a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.
Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.
Which makes some sense. Look, I know many of the readers of this blog have wandered from the religious paths we once followed. But having belonged to churches over the years, I can tell you that I didn't always agree with what my minister was saying; still don't, always. Nobody's said anything as outlandish as Wright's anti-Hillary sermon, but I've definitely heard people say things I disagree with, and say them from the pulpit. And criminy, I'm a Unitarian.

I have a good friend who's Catholic, as is his wife. They're also in favor of birth control, pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-women's equality. So why do they remain in the church? Well, it's where they feel most connected spiritually. That doesn't mean there aren't things they disagree with in their church, nor that they weren't disappointed by the selection of the current pope. But they still feel grounded in that church.

So do I tell my friend that he's horrible for staying in a church that sometimes preaches things at odds with what he believes? No, I don't, because I'm quite fine with him finding and staying in a church he feels connected to. And I feel the same way toward my friends who are atheists and agnostics and Lutherans and Methodists...all of us find things we disagree with in our chosen faith traditions, but that doesn't mean we must chuck them all.


Obama seems to be saying that he found faith in his church, but not necessarily a political ideology. Unstated, but also true, Obama found a community in that church -- one of the major reasons people join churches is to find community, after all.

I think when Obama says, "All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country," that he means it. For me, that's sufficient.

But not for the conservatives. Oh, they're still mouth-foamy and stuff. John Cole has a good roundup of the lunacy, including this beauty from Dan Riehl:

Also, if that’s the case and Obama is a disciple of Wrights, exactly what type of change does Obama have in mind when it comes to race relations in America? The church also celebrates Kwanzaa. I wonder, is this something Obama intends to continue if he’s elected president? His holiday cards are pretty generic … for a committed Christian.

Which of course gets to the heart of this particular controversy. It's not that Obama's minister has said some nutty things. Anybody who's been to church ever has seen their minister say some nutty things. No, it's that Obama's minister said those nutty things while being black. And Barack Obama listened to that minister while he was black. They celebrate Kwanzaa at Obama's church! A pretty black holiday, isn't it, hmmm?


Will the conservatives make an issue of this in the fall? Of course they will, but they were going to blow something up ridiculously out of proportion. If they didn't have this, they would have run ads comparing Obama to Farrakhan. If Clinton somehow gets the nomination, they'll run ads saying Hillary Clinton was a secret lesbian who killed her lover Vince Foster. If John Edwards is given the nomination somehow, we'll hear that he used his wife's cancer to get ahead.

If 2004 taught us anything, it's that the conservatives will seize onto anything, no matter how small, and use it to tar good people. Barack Obama joined a large, prominent African American church, one that included among its membership Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods, and Michael Jordan. And at that church, he found community and a faith that fit him -- as well as a minister who sometimes went over the top. Obama's now said, flatly, that when his minister went over the top, that was wrong. I was satisfied when the Clinton campaign rebuked the statements by Ferraro, and I'm satisfied with Obama rebuking these statements by Wright. As for this sentence -- "I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit." -- everyone's chosen candidate should tattoo that to their foreheads.


AlterNet is a nonprofit organization and does not make political endorsements. The opinions expressed by its writers are their own.

Digg!

Jeff Fecke is a regular blogger for Shakesville.


Post-Pennsylvania Analysis
All the candidates, even the ones who don't have a shot.
April 23, 2008.
Maddow Schools Scarborough on McCain [VIDEO]
Give this woman her own show already, MSNBC.
April 3, 2008.
Bill Kristol Becomes the Latest White Bigot to Lecture Us on Race
Bill Kristol, you see, thinks that racism isn't a problem at all. At least not one we should talk about.
March 25, 2008.
Fox News Demotes Heath Ledger Bashing Bigot John Gibson
Ah, John. We'll sure miss you.
March 14, 2008.
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WHAT ABOUT HEALTHCARE, IRAQ, THE ECONOMY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 15, 2008 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK the pastor is nuts, Geraldine Ferraro has a big mouth. Candidates should not waste their time on these people. They are a distraction. Can we get on with more important matters? Too much time is wasted on junk that belongs in the tabloids. We all know people who are an embarassment. No wonder this administration does as it pleases and answers to no one. Americans are up to their ears in gossip and have no time for the serious stuff. Thanks, ANNA

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» It's not the candidates who are doing it Posted by: liberalibrarian
oh effing hallelujah
Posted by: particle on Mar 15, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sounds like going to church is more trouble than it's worth.

On the other hand, Michael Savage has been strutting, puffing and throwing massive conniption fits over Barack Hussein Obama and his Adolf Hitler, non-christian, liberation theology, white hating, communist, blah-blah-blah preacher. It's almost worth electing Obama just to see the wingnuts burst aneurisms in their puss filled little heads.

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» and hail to the inefable Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: oh effing hallelujah Posted by: Longdream
As an agnostic,
Posted by: bettyn on Mar 15, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I refuse to attend any church of any denomination. Growing up in the South, I had religion rammed down my throat and hated every minute I had to spend in church or Sunday school. I don't agree with much of ANYTHING ANY preacher has ever told me.

However, you can bet Karl Rove has just torpedoed any chance Obama ever had of becoming President, or even the Democratic nominee. In our God-obsessed and race-obsessed American society today, the racial rants of this preacher will be the undoing of Barack's candidacy.

Get ready for FOUR MORE YEARS of Repuke rule. I'm beginning to think the Democratic Party is no longer a viable political entity. This has turned into a real mess for the clueless (as usual) Dems.

Give me a break and let me out of this country!

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» RE: As an agnostic, Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: As an agnostic, Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: As an agnostic, Posted by: Longdream
» RE: As an agnostic, Posted by: Longdream
Conspi-racists
Posted by: deapp on Mar 15, 2008 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The old sick Reagan Southern strategy. Many White politicians know that they can control the sick minds of a white racist majority by simply saying something negative about a Black person to conger up innate fears of the Black brutes taking over and destroying White superiority or having sex with their lily white daughters (I have and it ain't all that) or visiting upon them the judgement of their racist past. Wake up and start thinking for yourself for a change. These tactics has controlled White thinking for years. Publishing Abraham Lincoln in a drawing with a big afro scared many whites away from voting for him. Many other Presidents was confronted with the NI---R issue that either destroyed their run for President or made it difficult to carry on. Reagan is the father of modern day racist tactics.
THE CARPETBAGGER REPORT wrote "Ronald Reagan is the only modern president conservatives are proud of, and it’s no doubt painful to think that their hero intentionally appealed to white supremacists with racially-divisive campaign tactics. Republicans no doubt prefer to think of their idol as a man of stronger character and virtue.
But that doesn't mean they can re-write history. Reagan opposed the Civil Rights Act and tried to weaken it as president. He opposed a holiday for the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He weakened the Civil Rights Commission. He opposed expanding federal civil rights laws. He sought to protect tax exemptions for private schools that practiced racial discrimination. He rejected sanctions on the apartheid regime in South Africa.
And Reagan used racially-charged language intended to divide and offend. Conservatives may not like it, but facts are stubborn things".

Move away from the Bush Republikkkan fear mongering attitudes. Do not make the same mistakes of the past. Hillary Clinton knew what she was about to do to Obama during the one of the debates. Hillary expressed how much she admired Obama and how much of a honor it was sitting beside him. Hillary knew she was about to release the Republican RACE demon on fearful whites. Bush used it on McCain. You see what Bush thinking has done for America. Stop being controlled by your own people. You can either believe the illusions of the /Reagan/McCain/Clinton Klanism or you can believe in the Audacity to HOPE for a UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Choose carefully.

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Maybe not so nuts
Posted by: jebpgh on Mar 15, 2008 8:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm really perplexed by all the hoo-ha around Rev. Wright. The two sermon segments I've seen quoted most often - the one regarding 9-11 and the one regarding "God bless America" hardly seem to be outside the boundaries of reason. A lot of otherwise intelligent people who are familiar with the concent of "blow-back" have cited our role as a state sponsor of terror as having contributed substantially to the attacks on 9-11. Nothing new there. And really, is it more outrageous to suggest that the US was getting a taste of its own arrogance on 9-11 or suggesting as Rev. Falwell did that it was due to the gays and transexual life styles of New Yorkers? Then there is the "God Damn" America speech. Well excuse me for asking but what exactly is wrong with challenging the notion that African-Americans should be praising America? Doesn't 200 years of enslavement, another 100 years of persecution and a continued life of hardship and discrimmination count for nothing?

We have let the media ride around and say whatever stupid thought pops into their heads and rather than telling them to "shut the f-up" we feel duty bound to explain, like some house slave, why master should not worry that if we get the big house we gonna be nice and sweet and just like them. This sucks. It is not what change is about - change is about people being able to stand in the sunlight - not run around and hide in the shadows of denial.

A flag lapel pin does not make you a patriot. A denial of the historic oppression of an entire race of people does not get you a free ride into the "club". And spending more time talking about playing commander-in-chief and not about being a diplomat-in-chief or trying to out man Hillary and Bill is not a way to live one's life or be the leader. Barack needs to stand up - sooner rather than later - and say "enough".

He needs to tell the damn truth. That Hillary and Bill Clinton dragged this nation down with their personal problems and issues, squandered their election in 1992 so now we have to go back and fight for health care, beat back a neo-conservative agenda and find some way to stop the dying in Iraq. He needs to let the world know that John McCain is a nut job - that he is unstable and will find ways to carry us into more - not less - wars of vengence and retribution. He needs to say that we can't play date our way out of the problem in the Middle East until we draw the line in the sand on Israel and demand that the west bank settlements get dismantled. And we need to put the world on notice that we believe in a strong, multi-lateral solution to the problems we face and that includes getting the UN to finally work again for the good of humanity.

Enough with the nice guy game - take the offensive. Or more of us will be thinking that the lyrics to that song really are "god damn Amerika".

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» Not nuts at all Posted by: Stovo B
» McCain? Posted by: TWilliams
» RE: Not nuts at all Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Not nuts at all Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Not nuts at all Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Not nuts at all Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Maybe not so nuts Posted by: tresdelsol
» RE: Maybe not so nuts Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Maybe not so nuts Posted by: Longdream
» Open your eyes Posted by: TWilliams
» RE: My eyes are suddenly open! Posted by: Longdream
» RE: My eyes are suddenly open! Posted by: Longdream
They've got to vent their closeted racism somehow...
Posted by: DreamFast on Mar 15, 2008 9:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and that is basically what we are seeing and hearing. And it's a piss poor camouflage.

There's a reason why religion is interjected into politics. And now also race. It plays directly on emotion and totally obliterates reason. With reason and rationality out of the way, all kinds of emotional buttons can be pushed, then emotional reaction defines the day as rational thought flies out the window.

On a separate note, I disagree with the writer that a person should stay in a church which espouses tenets of which one completely disagrees with in order to maintain some supercillious sense of community. It actually creates just the opposite because the person must divorce oneself from one's own sense of being and adhere symbolically to something he/she does not embrace, which then minimizes one's self by dint of sacrificing one's personal integrity, and thus - on a deeper level - errodes that sense of community which is so deeply desired.

Unless of course the object is to create a community of hypocrites.

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» Democrats need new leadership Posted by: TWilliams
calculation
Posted by: Unbowed on Mar 15, 2008 11:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am unable to conceive of any logic in the choices made for this next presidential term on the Dem side. As I watched each state choose its hero's to run for the Democratic side I wondered at the lack of calculation involved in these choices. I thought about how I have longed to end this rein of the Repugs, and how "we" were picking Hillary, on what basis I will never know, and Obama, whom I admire greatly and voted for,(not much choice at that point) but who it seemed to me will be a hard sell in the general. Then the monster starts to show her true colors and lessens his chances further. So here we are with the wife of the first Republicrat/Sax/cigar/afta/liar and who for all his charm sold us out. And Obama whom they want to abort. (Hill, will eat her own to win) Should be her slogan for this election. I so hope for us. We so seem to want to throw our chance away and and the media/Repugs love it. I feel like I'm drowning.

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» RE: calculation Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: calculation Posted by: Longdream
Time to move on
Posted by: Dottie on Mar 15, 2008 11:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Senator Obama has responded to Rev Wright's comments in a heartfelt manner. He obviosly disagrees with the hateful things Rev Wright has said. Senator Obama should move on now and continue to speak about his dream for the future of this country. I will be voting for him in the Pennsylvania election and the general election. In my opinion he is the best candidate.

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» RE: Time to move on Posted by: Basenjis
» He is responsible Posted by: TWilliams
» RE: He is responsible Posted by: Dottie
» RE: What hateful things? Posted by: ceti
Obama's next commercial
Posted by: fbc21ca on Mar 15, 2008 12:41 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish he would take some of those millions that I and all the other supporters gave him and *carpet-bomb* the media with a video featuring THIS WOMAN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioaChVw_pUw

Please oh please oh please....

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» RE: Obama's next commercial Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Obama's next commercial Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Obama's next commercial Posted by: fbc21ca
John Mason
Posted by: jom57 on Mar 15, 2008 1:00 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's true, the Right Wing will do EVERY swift-boaty thing it can think of to attack Obama, so Obama doesn't need their permission for anything, he doesn't have to appease them at all. He criticized Wright's unfortunate statement, that's enough.

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From Falwell to Farrakhan..all Heretics..including Rev. Wright..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 15, 2008 5:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't buy Obama's excuses or explanation, for me all of these disgusting heretics from Dobson and Hagee, Falwell to Farrakhan to Parsley to this Rev.Wright a raving hate filled lunatic, have nothing at all to do with anything that Jesus taught sacrificed and died for..

They are old Testament Judges the same as the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus wrongfully to the Cross..false prophets out for Profit..

Obama shows poor judgment in this and his explanation and denial seems highly dishonest..disingenuous...

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» Excellent Observation Posted by: TWilliams
» RE: xcellent Observation Posted by: bc430
» RE: bc430 Posted by: Longdream
» RE: xcellent Observation Posted by: Quannah
abby
Posted by: abby on Mar 15, 2008 5:34 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, Obama did what he had to do; most Americans are not well informed amd most likely would have taken the pastor's comments out on Obama by not voting for him. But, let's face it, the pastor was right: the U.S. IS run by rich white people (mostly men), most of our politicians are millionaires, and 9/11 might very well have been caused by the decades of the reprehensible actions of our foreign policies. Maybe people got all bent out of shape because a black man said it, but who should know better than those that have been treated so badly by this nation that enslaved them so cruelly for so long.

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» RE: abby Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: abby Posted by: Quannah
» RE: abby Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: abby Posted by: Quannah
I give up
Posted by: TWilliams on Mar 15, 2008 6:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a left-wing Democrat yet I cannot support Obama for another second.

How can AlterNet support Obama when Obama dug this hole all by himself? Has this site fallen so low to support a presidential candidate that, for over 20 years, strongly supported a church that openly condemns whites and Jews? Someone change this!

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» RE: I give up Posted by: ceti
» RE: I give up Posted by: TWilliams
» FWEEEEEEEEEEEEET!! Posted by: Longdream
» RE: FWEEEEEEEEEEEEET!! Posted by: Quannah
Is this the "Dean Scream"??
Posted by: carbon-based on Mar 15, 2008 6:53 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no way Obama did not know about his pastors views and I am sure he has agreed with many. If not he wouldn't have been at the church for 20 years and forged a close relationship with him!

Michelle Obama’s I hate America remarks seemed to have come straight out of his pastors rants! The anti white rants of his pastor also draw closely with Michelle Obama’s writing on the issue while in school. Too many things are coming out regarding this issue lately.

I have watched this carefully as a moderate leaning strongly towards Obama. I have to say that the "I hate America" stance turns me off like nothing else and I'm sure it does to many others straddling the fence. Not good news for Obama. His appearance on every network trying to do damage control is pretty transparent.

His pastors views are worse than the crazy religious right. I still haven’t decided yet how this will play out re my vote but this is a bombshell for Obama!

Too bad, it’s refreshing to listen to someone who seems to make sense and can finally speak intelligently!

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» RE: Horsehit-based Posted by: Longdream
» RE: That's HorseShit-based Posted by: Longdream
» RE: That's HorseShit-based Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: That's HorseShit-based Posted by: Longdream
» Nobody ever hates "America..." Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Nobody ever hates "America..." Posted by: carbon-based
Our Party is Doomed
Posted by: TWilliams on Mar 15, 2008 6:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not a fan of Hillary.

I am now not a fan of Obama. I cannot and refuse to support a man who is clearly lying about his connections and feelings regarding Wright.

The sad thing is the press should have revealed all of this earlier. A better candidate would have been moved to the front.

Now we are stuck with Obama - who will not be elected president. I know too many democrats and independents who will not even come close to voting for Obama now.

Our party needs better leadership or it will be doomed.

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» RE: Our Party is Doomed Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Our Party is Doomed Posted by: Ginga
All of the...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Mar 16, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...wining and "woe is me" talk about how the Democrapic party is spineless is all the evidence you need to vote for a third party candidate this year...Nadar or Hutchinson. We need a revolution people, and HilBill, or Obama are not up to the task. Either will go down in flames in Nov.

Think about it. If you could not beat possibly the dumbest man on the planet TWICE, how the hell do you think you will have a chance against a person with 0.1 of a brain?

There is little difference between Hillary and Obama and the biggest factor is that they are attached to an Invisible friend who will destroy their credibility in a heartbeat.

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."

~Thomas Jefferson

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So what is so wrong with what Wright said?
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Mar 16, 2008 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a fiery sermon in April 2003, Wright said:

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America.

“No! No No!

“God damn America … for killing innocent people.

“God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans.

“God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”

Wright can also be seen questioning America’s role in the spreading of the HIV virus that leads to AIDS. In another speech, made in the days after 9/11, he suggested that American foreign policy invited the terror attacks.

“We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye,” Wright said.

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”

The pastor also said: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”

Prior to his retirement last month, Wright delivered commentary from the pulpit in which he praised Obama, as well as remarks focusing on the racial divide between Obama and Clinton.
“There is a man here who can take this country in a new direction,” Wright said during his Jan. 13 sermon.

During a Christmas sermon, Wright tried to compare Obama’s upbringing to Jesus at the hands of the Romans.

“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people,” Wright said. “Hillary would never know that.

“Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

In a Jan. 13 sermon, Wright said:

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

The only thing I disagree about is that Wright thinks Obama is the second coming and the answer to this countries woes.

Wright is right on target for the most part.

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» If Wright were white........ Posted by: carbon-based
» TRUTH HURTS Posted by: deapp
Sigh...
Posted by: newtype_alpha on Mar 16, 2008 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sad that Obama has to distance himself from Rev. White's comments for the sake of political correctness... unfortunately, the Reverend is mostly correct in his observations, however inconvenient those observations may be. Obama knows this, as much as he knows the three great truths that define what counts as "acceptable discourse" for American politicians:

1) Do not talk about "class," or for that matter, "class struggle," except to mention that both are myths
2) Do not talk about convicted criminals as being actual people, except to imply that they are the few bad apples who deserve whatever they get.
3) Do not under any circumstances direct the spotlight towards the wealthy elitist and overwhelmingly white male power structure that for three hundred years has dominated North America.

Rev. White pointed out that Hillary Clinton hails from the ranks of the same rich white political elite as Bush and McCain (on some level we already knew that, considering all the talk about the "Clinton Dynasty"). He even had the audacity to point out that racism still exists in America, and that Barrack Obama has to swim against THAT tide in his campaign even while Hillary Clinton has wind at her back just by virtue of her status among the elite. Does pointing that out make him wrong, or just upiddy?

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Double standard
Posted by: Dottie on Mar 16, 2008 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does the fact that Senator Obama was married by Rev Wright and his children were baptised by him have anything to do with his campaign for the President. The talking heads on TV refer to this constantly. If you are Catholic you were probably married by your Priest and your children were most likly baptised by him. I don't get the reason the media continues to bring this up.

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What to expect from a preacher
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 16, 2008 1:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is caused by any one or more of about half a dozen mental illnesses.
The truth about religion can be found in these books:

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.

"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." Science is a process, not a religion.

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?

"Atheism, A Case Against God" by George Smith

"God is not Great; how religion poisons everything" by Christopher Hitchens, 2007

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A game called "telephone;" What is "word salad?"
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Mar 16, 2008 1:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a sophomore undergraduate student in Physics, your homework in Probability
and Statistics class may include figuring out when the second coming would be
required, assuming that the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when
would the bible be down to 50% true? The popular and professors' answer in
1965 was the year 500. The true answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in
Budapest, Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed. After 25 years, he
visited his home town of Budapest. He was unable to communicate with his high
school classmates because the Hungarian language had changed so much. The
correct answer is less than 25 years. The first gospel was not written down until
50 years after the alleged events and then in a different language. The people who
told the story were at about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean
Native Americans before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen played
the game called "Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-tellers.
By the Sixth re-telling, the story has no resemblance to the original. The gospel
story had to have been re-told at least 6 times before it was mis-translated the first
time. [Note that whoever wrote it down the first time was free to write whatever
he wanted to. The storytellers were illiterate and unable to check his written text
by reading it. Besides that, he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion:
There is no truth anywhere in the bible, and there never was. There is no way to
know what "jesus" or "mohammed" or any other such character actually said or
did.

ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion have
been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the issue.
Religion is an unfortunate side effect of having evolved from a chimpanzee-like
animal in a very brief 6 or 7 million years. "God" will not save us from the
consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact or a tornado because there
is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are instinctive, not derived from
religion. Female instinct has greater force in morality than male instinct because
the female is in command of the sexual encounter. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of astronomy
which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from at any one
time. People keep inventing new religions [for the benefit of the "prophet," of
course] and forgetting other religions. ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis,
iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand theft, bunko type".

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more on double standards
Posted by: CJC on Mar 16, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with Dottie heartily.

If everyone running for public office and who is also a member of a religious congregation had to take responsibility for everything their pastor/rabbi/priest/imam/etc etc said we'd be having a different kind of public conversation about religion for sure.

Meanwhile, a couple of bigoted Protestant evangelicals have publicly announced their support for John McCain and there's hardly a ripple in the water of public discourse. McCain was standing right next to Hagee (sp?) when he made his endorsement.

Of the few clips of Wright that were shown on TV I have to say that although his rhetoric was hardly measured and careful I agreed with a lot of what he said.
Blacks are angry? This is a surprise? Why shouldn't they be angry? 1 of 9 black men 20-34 (or whatever the exact figures are that were recently released) are in prison. All of us should be appalled.
The 9/11 attacks can be seen as "blowback"** for a century of interference in the affairs of other countries. The week after 9/11 this was not politic to say, but Wright's not a politician. To put the attacks in a broader context is not to forgive, much less to condone them.

Clinton has made many justified complaints about sexist media coverage. This "exposure" of Obama's pastor Rev. Wright is racist, though Obama can't and won't say that. But the rest of us shouldn't miss the subtext of this story.

Here are some books to read. (Johnson is a professor. Kinzer is a journalist, former NYTimes writer. Neither is black.)
*Chalmers Johnson, "Blowback: The costs and consequences of American empire," 2000
Also "Sorrows of Empire," 2004 and "Nemesis," 2006
*Stephen Kinzer, "Overthrow:America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq," 2006

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» RE: more on double standards Posted by: Pundit07
You need to change
Posted by: Quannah on Mar 16, 2008 3:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
your screen-name to "McCainApologist"

Maybe then I will seriously answer your posts. At least you'll be honest then.

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Above post for TWilliams...
Posted by: Quannah on Mar 16, 2008 3:08 PM   
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sorry, hit the wrong button! *

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Where is your attack
Posted by: Quannah on Mar 16, 2008 3:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on Pastor Hagee or Parson? You wanna talk about HATE??? Why not talk about that?

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Sorry! Parsley, not Parson! Jeeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah on Mar 16, 2008 3:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess I'm not paying attention today.

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How quickly the tables turn
Posted by: Joe on Mar 16, 2008 4:45 PM   
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wasn't too long ago these same type of tactics were use by liberal establishment papers against other candidates. now it's biting obamo in the ass. although i sympathize with obama im glad to see these tactics come back to bite liberals in the ass.

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...and I give
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Mar 16, 2008 4:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a fuck what right-wing bloggers think why?

jdfu!

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» RE: ...and I give Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Hey, horse. Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hey, horse. Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Hey, horse. Posted by: Longdream
Parker
Posted by: Parker1227 on Mar 16, 2008 10:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If any of the republican candidates had had a personal advisor and pastor as insane as Rev. the-CIA-made-the-AIDS-virus Wright, they would have been chased out of the race by people carrying torches about six months ago.

Evil right-wing bloggers did not force Obama to choose an advisor/pastor who is crazier than Ward Churchill. Its all on Obama - no matter what anyone says.

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» RE: Parker Posted by: Quannah
My perspective...
Posted by: dave16 on Mar 19, 2008 7:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please see www.discussrace.com

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OBAMA HAS NOT REALLY CONDEMNED HIS PASTOR
Posted by: Pundit07 on Mar 20, 2008 9:04 AM   
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Obama has not really condemned the pastor. Obama has mesmerized the nation. Nothing, he does, is or can be bad. So he does not have to condemn his pastor. He says he does not agree with him. But he does believe hat the heart of his pastor is entirely white. The pastor is his friend. He perfomed his marriage. He baptised his children and will baptise any new children. If Obama becomes president he'll probably become his chief of staff at white house. Actually the pastor thinks that all whites are Kafirs and should be demolished. It is a shame that even whites agree with the pastor. They would make themselves good by voting Obama to Presidency. so nothing I say can and will matter. I hope people wake up and realise that Obama is not the black they should put in the white house. The black who should be put in the white house would be a black who does not think whi=ites are Kafirs and should be demolished. Obama is not the man. He should be stopped and will be stopped. People will see that Obama is a muslim at heart and will convert to islam once he's elected to power. His pastor is a cultist. He's not a christian. He is a cultist. Obama is a member of his cult. The cult calls itself Christian cult. But it's really a muslim cult. Today I received ann email from Obama. I told him exactly what I'm saying here. I told him that he should join a real church and take his vows again and have his children baptised again if he wants to sleep in the white house.

Obama is not the man who should be allowed to run the USA inspite of his denouncing of his pastor.

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OBAMA DID NOT FIND ANY FAITH . HE FOUND WRIGHT
Posted by: Pundit07 on Mar 20, 2008 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama says he found the faith in Wright. People believe him. What a faith Obama found. Obama did not find Jesus. Obama found Wright. Obama did not find Mohammad. He found Wright. Obama did not Find Krishna. He found Wright. Wright says destroy the Whiote. Wright hates the whites. Even whites are sying so why should he not destroy us. Wright is poisoning the world. He's poisoning the minds of people. I'm afraid of the future of USA. Wright will get his chance to make USA a black country by destroying the whites when whites send Obama to power. I hope there are enough Republicans who will stop the Democratic whites from sending Obama to White House.

Send a man, who is not a devotee of Wright, to White house even if he is black. Not a muslim like Obama. If you want to send a black to white house send Mohammad Ali (the Boxer) or the basket ball player Cassius Clay (what is his muslim name) to white house. Salman Rushdie would make a good President. Only he was born in India although he's an India hating Muslim. But I think he's better tan Obama and Wright. Atleast Rushdie does not say dstroy anybody like The Obama pastor does.

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