Hey Religious Believers, Where's Your Evidence?

I exist, therefore God exists. The universe can neither create nor destroy matter. Something must have created all of this matter using powers we do not understand. Where did the Big Bang come from? How did Life begin? Why do we have souls? There's a lot of holes in the snobby arguments of atheists.

And where's your proof that socialism works? It always fails. It often leads to slavery, genocide, and/or war. It conflicts with every single thing we know about human nature. But you Alternuts still believe.

It's really cute. Ann Coulter was right. Socialism really is a religion. It has a profit (Karl Marx), a church (the UN), and several prayers that lefties recite without really thinking...like:

Diversity is our strength.

It takes a village to raise a child.

Barack Obama is a great public speaker.

What? Really? Nevermind. Don't ask questions. Be quiet, and sit still. You're in church.

Amen.

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I hear the "but someone had to create it/me argument the most.
It's poor at best, and horribly ignorant at worst.

Why can't people accept the fact that we just don't know how we came to be?

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Religions, especially religions that make a universal claim for their dogmas and behavioral rules, stand necessarily outside any particular state-form, so if they enter into political, economic, cultural, scientific, or any other discussions about these matters, their opinions and methods of establishing truth or relevance are equally questionable as any other available methodologies developed in our societies. They have no a-priori privilege in their claims about these things.

What's going on beneath all these things that have completely toxified and poisoned any kind of productive dialogues or interactions in our public (and private!) areneas for these last 40 years is that many of these religious affiliations are making a bid and a claim for Authority in direct challenge to the Constitutional foundations of our particular society, even extending to policies with regard to other countries and regions of the globe. It's a bid for Power.

If they claim superiority to the "Scientific Method" or other such ways of investigating, researching, cataloguing, etc. this planet we all are living on, the burden is on them to bring it forth, and to make it available for each one of us to test it for its validity.

Otherwise, their claim is simply for a "Western variant" of Sharia or Taliban rule.

Vote, speak, and challenge. Unless you prefer Theocracy and other texts as binding on our Constitution, which stands available for each one of us.

At least that's my opinion.

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Every religion states it is the only real religion, theirs, the only real god / gods.

They are all faith based. Ask them enough good questions and they take the last stand of faith.

So if religion A says religion B is false, then they are all false, because the only basis is faith.

If your position has the same base as another position, and you deem the other position false, then you deem your position false as well.

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GOD = choda=gothic= what you worship

OK I worship free market and freedom and live in a trailercamp but in future I will be RICH.
is this logic????

In Europe they have health care, they only bailout if bankers are restrictive on having the bonus
They are bad, they are socialists.
is this logic.

Many people live on assumptions,

and the Quran and Bible and Thora are old books, there is wisdom but also nonsence.
i.e. leviticus; if you have sex with a wife during her menstruations you must be killed...
this is nonsense.
So GO)D exists but religion is nonsense

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I once wrote a satirical letter to the editor that predictably (and perhaps: gladly) wasn't printed.

In it I purported to be the king of a small island nation who wanted to establish a state religion and therefore solicited representatives of any and all creeds to convince me that their religion was THE ONE, as opposed to all the fucking brain farts of those delusional people and frauds. Due to the huge number of claimants there was a five minute limit for each presentation which should suffice for anyone who truly had an all powerful deity on their side.

Silly, perhaps, but it really comes down to this: religious proselytizers only ever "convince" some folks under certain circumstances (by paternal brain washing or under threat of hell). But no one ever presents incontrovertible (or just stunning) evidence.
Sorry folks, it's clearly made up, it's not real.

PS: Listened today to an interview with the writer who wrote the story of Bin Ladin's fourth son (there were eleven -11!!- children). Apparently, Bin Ladin forbade this family to smile or laugh, and if one child transgressed, all children were punished.

Tolerance for child abuse anyone?
"Holy" books preaching cruel nonsense are poisonous junk, let's treat them as such.

There is more truth and inspiration in poetry and literature - and much less unwarranted coercion.

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It is not closed minds, its closed hearts. All logic and reason requires a closed system, one where contradictions are 100% false, and everything else is true. Its why math is incomplete. Atheism offers no guidance to people, who stumble about without telescopes or calculus. There are no hypocrites in atheism, because anything (except for belief in the supernatural) goes. (Obviously anyone can have codes & life guidelines; what does atheism have to offer that religion doesn't? (You say pope, I say Mao etc.)) People do not live in a closed system, and not in their brains, nor in a physical, measurable universe. They live in their own experience, full of messes.
People are moved to action every day by love (in its many forms), but has it been measured?
Being open to love, you find the evidence through personal experience.
The author sees a physical, electrical, mental-emotional, and mental-intellectual, but not a spirit body. Has she become aware of what is aware? Would removing a limb, hair, or some part of her personality cause her awareness to cease? Her argument is a philosophical one, and more for agnosticism than atheism. Calling religion a hypothesis is fine and all, but it will always fail, because it is not only saying, "your feelings are wrong," to anyone with religious feeling, but that they, "are not based on anything, you have to prove your emotions! express the inexpressible! Art doesn't count! Do it now!"

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The arguments for and against the existence of God miss the point. At any moment of grief, loss, confession or looming death, everyone has need for hope and forgiveness of their transgressions. To a believer, there can be no greater fullfillment of such need than the believe in a benevelent God that loves all of mankind. At such crucial moments, what can be gained from Atheism? Answer that and perhaps we can commence a meaningful dialogue!

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If any of these 'devote' religious fantatics truely had any faith, they would not be trying to dominate or kill others to acheive some 'divine' roll.
A Faithful would accept that there are a variety of faiths because that is the way it was designed (No "infidels" or sinners). They would either accept the concept that people will not all act in accordance with a particular philosophy, because the gift of 'Free Choice' was operating. Or more poignantly that Pre determination actually controlled peoples actions so no behavior, attitude or act has been performed without prior consent or commnand.
As a long recover Catholic, but an apprentice in being a recovered Atheist, my 'faith' in something more powerful than ourselves (beyond the elementary reader books)comes from my sense of wonder at the complexity, yet simplicity of the physical world. Look into a microscope then up into a telescope. Molecules not only look like universes, they operate like them. A single celled animal has the similar 'organs' that function like multi celled animals.DNA, Stem Cells are an artists palate- growing into any number of 'finished products'- a common thread between all living things. Why believe in the spiritual? because the physcial world is so amazing to elicits awe when contemplated as a whole.
You are doing yourself an intellectual disservice if you confine yourself to merely the belief that 'God' can only be defined through personification. In fact most these religions do their Supreme 'Being' a disservice by limiting it (them) to only powers and intellegence a mere mortal can comprehend. If there is a grandfatherly 'God'- you think everything He thinks and is capable of doing can be summed up in a book, even 3?? Worse to attribute petty human emotions to this deity (jealousy, rage, vindictiveness). So their 'God' is so weak as to committs 'Deadly Sins' all the time?
And lets be honest, These 'Zeus' believers can not explain where 'he' came from, but neither can the Atheist (or scienctists) explain where the components (elements) of the Big Bang came from. there are 'Prime Mover'(chicken & the egg) Logistical Problems in all camps.
I felt awe and wonder as an atheist, but when I began to have a reverence for it all is when I faultered (after 30 yrs).
I have faith that gravity will be still working tomorrow. I have faith the cosmos will still be performing it's synchonized dance, just as every cell in my body will be performing it's duties as well.
And for as well as all this works from day to day for me, and all those before, the beautiful synchronization of it can not be denied.
Granted it's not a perfect operating system- cells malform, meteros crash. But those things only exenuate the fact that they are 'out of the ordinary'. Ordinary denotes a consistency, an Order, which indicates a Pattern , a 'design'.
We've allowed the small minded and flim flam men to control the definition of 'Faith' and 'God'. They begin with a false premise- Nobody can truely 'Know' God. It insinuates all 'His' Supremeness is comprehendible by Man.If we can fully understand all that consitutes 'God', then he's no great mystery, or wonder. Is that what scared the Vatican about scientists that there 'god' was so simplistic that Man could figure 'him' out and ultimately replicate it themselves? Don't think too much of your 'God' do ya?
It's bad enough to have the Exclusionary religions define the debate, but worse when the opposing view outright concedes to it. You are tying a logistic arm behind you back. Not to mention an intellectual one as well.
Scientists will 'find' "God" and rename it, (Dark energy?). But they will be no more able to fully explain it, or replicate it. Isn't that worthy of a 'Supreme Force' title? One within which we exist as one of many living component. A 'God', we are powerless to control (as the term denotes),to us either way?

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We were created in God’s image, or we weren’t. I prefer to believe and act as if we are God’s creation.

Let’s look at the view that we weren’t created in God’s image and see where it takes us.

A few years ago, Bill Joy, chief scientist at Sun Microsystems warned that advances
in robotics and in naotechnology could result, as soon as 2030, in a computer technology
that may replace the human species. Artificial intelligence (IE) scientist Hans Moravec, at Carnegie Mellon agrees that “by performing better and cheaper, the robots will displace humans from essential roles, and rather quickly they could displace us from existence.”

Whether computers, our “mind children” as Moravec calls them, are positioned to replace
humanity or to coexist with us, whether we even wish to pursue the dream of AI at all,
depends on what parts of our own nature we hope to copy in our attempt to create autonomous machines.

The goal of AI is to create an “other” in our own image, which possesses a huge question when we come to another “creator-creation” concept -- is it God or technology? Is there a special quality that makes us “ Godly human” , or will there be a new “scientific evolution” that let’s AI replace everything with its own creations? Natural evolution permits many undesirable conditions/problems to happen to “mankind” which AI can avoid as its process is perfected.

Might the world be “better off” if humans played a minor place in existence and “let AI run the show” with its advancing technology? Is God essential in your life?

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I love my atheist brothers and sisters--but I see them as naive materialists, because they're always asking for material proof of something that is nonphysical.

Here's an analogy to explain what I mean. Imagine you're having a lucid dream in which you are trying to prove to the dream people that the waking world exists.

How would you do it? No matter how much the dream people got out their dream instruments, they wouldn't find a clue. Using the same logic as atheists, they would triumphantly conclude that there was no such thing as a waking world.

If this analogy holds, it suggests that physical proof of religious beliefs is an impossibility.

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First, if you have not had a spiritual experience, there is no reason why you should believe in spiritual experiences--any more than a blind man should have to believe in the existance of the moon or the stars.

Religion is altogether another matter that involves groups trying to preserve their interest in maintaining power. That's the reason I take it that the priests of all religion claim that theirs is the only true one. But religion is only a form of worship.
To believe that Consciousness prefers one form of worship to another form is a personal matter.

What drives spirituality is its connection to Mind, to the impossibility of no-Mind, because once it's touched you (and it certainly does not touch everyone) the presence of the spirit of Mind is everywhere and in everything. Western materialism, western culture, has cut us off from that spiritual experience. I call that alienation.We're alienated, not only from the world and it's multiple levels, but from one another and ourselves.

You want proof of the spiritual side of things? Stop thinking; stop your internal dialogue. That is, however, very dangerous.
The world as you know it would collapse, and you would either go mad from fright or perhaps die. A safer way to do it is start practicing yoga, tone up your body and your mind, and begin practicing meditation with a competent teacher. Or you could find a Zen master, someone who would guide you toward enlightment. There's a saying, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
Namaste (which is Sanskit for "the divinity in me salutes the divinity in you.")

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I suggest that people read book 4 of the free ebook series "And Gulliver Returns" (http://andgulliverreturns.info) It does a masterful job of looking at our unproven assumptions and they types of evidence we use.

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By denying the possibility that intelligence higher than that of humans may exist somewhere in the Universe, you are also denying the very concept of evolution. That puts you into the category of religious bigots.

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It is interesting, very interesting how those who perhaps refuse to believe will not accept the views of those who do. Of course, there are way too many who believe who refuse to accept the views of those who do not believe as well.

The problem is that the "wrong" people are often used as the "right" example. When the word Christian appears on these pages, it is used in various and sundry negative terms. Perhaps such terms are deserved, for many things have been done in the name of Christianity that shouldn't have been done. the same can be said for all religions.

I cannot explain the ignorance of those who claim to be Christians but whose lives are the antithesis of Christ. Like every single concept that has been developed over the course of civilization, once it gets in the hands of humankind, it becomes corrupted.

Nor can I explain the ignorance of those who say that to be a Christian is ignorance itself. I hold a Ph. D. in Science Education, yet I believe in Christ and God. There is no conflict

There are many of us who are seeking to do the work of Christ in this world in the manner of Christ but without the forced beliefs that so many times are the only things reported.

We work to feed the poor, build homes for the homeless, heal the sick, and free the oppressed.

I see the wonders of God in the universe and His creation. I marvel at what has transpired over the billions of years (and, yes, I sad, billions)of creation.

What is my evidence that God exists? That we speak of Him should be evidence enough.

In peace and with Christ,
Dr. Tony Mitchell
"Thoughts From The Heart On The Left"

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Unbelievable analogy. My thesis isn't about heaven, fairies, angels, hereafter or Chrsitmas, it's about man's deliverance from his own perceived evil and not what he was taught by tamborine shaking preachers. You miss the point entirely, when people feel oppressed, guilty, unworthy etc. they don't need an argument, they need deliverance and it is based on hope. If there is hope in Atheism, I fail to see it and my argument is tangible and irrefutable, to wit: the recorded history of man's love of his fellow man. You can relish in that gore, others will head elsewhere as a matter of choice.

For the record, I like the "Beatitudes" in Matthew's attribution of the Sermon on the Mount. Who cares if it is verifiable or not, the ideals are of benefit to all mankind, believers and atheists alike without regard to reward. And Atheism offers what? Oh, belief is full of shit!

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Spirituality is highly personal belief beyond materialism. Those who are spiritual do not seek to "prove" anything in the scientific realm and they do not claim "truth". Nor do they prosylitize.

Organized religion claims to know their own "truth" as defined by each separate religion. And those who embrace a particular religion seek to impose it upon others.They are rigid, intolerant and dangerous.

As for me, my own spirituality arises out my inability for my rational brain to fathum the vast abundance of beauty in the universe.But that is a highly personal view which happens to give me great pleasure.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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I am shocked at the number of people who didn't understand this article.
For the one talking about having a spiritual experience yourself, well, you have no way to determine whether or not what you call spiritual experience is a product of brain activity. None.
That was a great article, but for more than half of the people who left comments it's too much, too disturbing, they feel threatened!
Of course.

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Dear God,

This is my 6th annual letter to you- a tradition that I began in 2004
that I have come to really look forward to.

As I mentioned to you last year, but worth repeating, I have noticed after I share my previous open letters to you, God, that many of my good friends and family ask me if you have ever written back to me?

Well, God, I inwardly smile and say to them and to myself that it doesn't really matter if you haven't written back yet at all? (and you
haven't). I figured out a long time ago, God, that what really matters is that I live my own life on this earthly planet believing that you
MIGHT write back to me someday? That's the secret for the good life -for me anyway. It is choosing hope over fear.

Well in 2009, here on planet earth, as we close a decade in a new century, I decided to write to you about of all things- your face.

The reason, God, that I chose that topic this year is that I became involved in a huge and growing global, multilingual, social-networking
technology called FACEBOOK where I have acquired many new "friends" whose faces I can see directly on my computer.

I have tried to find your face, God, on FACEBOOK but it isn't there and really shouldn't be.

Because dear God, most smart people know that your face is not a human image. Your face rather is seen every day in the glory and grandeur of the abundant beauty of the universe and reflected in ALL the hopeful faces that I see on FACEBOOK every day that I log on.

You do not hide your face from us at all, God. But we often hide from you or forget to see you in our busy daily lives.

Theologians talk about seeking and living in your light and hoping that you shine your loving countenance upon each of us each day.

So your face is, God, not made of physical matter-But rather of loving energy - the source of all love and beauty.

That said, God, if I receive a message on FACEBOOK one day to accept a friend named GOD I will be sure to "friend" you.

I have spent much of my life learning to enjoy being your friend. And I know you are always there for me and others. For this I remain very
grateful.

Be Well,

Love Always,

Rick Lippin
Denenber 3, 2009

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Whenever you make a direct challenge to a long-held cultural assumption, you will always get an angry or unreasoned response. This is even if, and maybe ESPECIALLY if you have irrefutable, logical proof of its fallacy. There was an article out a while back that showed that talking to conservatives and trying to get them to see how their philosophy was dead wrong -with proof to back it up- actually solidified their belief in that same ideology. Tell a parent having kids is selfish or tell a capitalist that the activities they regularly engage in cause massive harm to others and you'll always get an angry backlash.

I propose that this is a product of human nature.

Like all things, cultural artifacts always exist for some reason, usually the protection of either the group as a whole or its power structure. At some time in our cultural evolution, the things we hold as culturally important came about to protect something or someone, and over time, even in the face of a changing world, these will always remain. All cultures on earth have them, and these are very difficult to change, especially among those who do very little self-reflection. Many-or in my opinion- most people generally don't have the courage or desire to examine themselves or the assumtions they have of the world very deeply. This is understandable, as doing so means that it not only takes work to challenge these assumptions, but also requires that those who do be flexible enough to change their entire definition of life, and by extention, all the activities they engage in as a result of them. Evolution teaches us that laziness is not the result of being stupid, its a way of conserving resources in a limited world. As a result, when you challenge ANY cultuiral assumption, you are fighting human nature- a state of being that evolved to deal with a problem of survival. Even though we now understand as a species that changing ourselves and our closely-held definitions is good, and on many levels necessarry for the next step in our evolution, it still flies in the face of that point in human nature. Because of this, cultural artifacts will always exist, as well as the people who buy into them due to blind training or fear or whatever, you'll always have resistance of these kind of outdated mores and ideals.

Those who read the things I've written here on AN probably know what's coming next... I believe that because of this slow-changing nature of cultural evolution and the fast-paced problems we now face, I think we're ultimately doomed as a species. Our problems are outpacing our ability to deal with themon an instinctual and long-term level. The questions is, how do we evolve our ability to pace our culture's evolution with the world around us (preferably before its too late)?

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God does not want you to believe in him.

God is not interested in your churches and your offerings. Your guilt means nothing to him.

God put you here for His reasons and you are not to question them or even know them.

You dishonor God by wasting your precious moments of life on the futile task of worshipping him.

Leave God alone and go about your business. Just pretend that He is not there. He has given you plenty to do.

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...doesn't require you prove that your association is really "the right one". It stems from the belief that all of us are created equal, and by our very existence we are endowed with certain rights. This is one of the tenets of a free and liberal society.

Shoot, progressive pard'ners. Somebody ought to do something about all those damn pinko commie liberals and their damn free and liberal pinko commie society, huh? I mean, one must ask himself or herself from time to time, just WWGWBD, eh?

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Wow, what a news flash: scientific thinking doesn't support a religious conception of existence. Thank God for that eye-opener.

The only complication is that science, properly understood, doesn't purport to address the same questions, or respond to the same human needs, as does religious thinking worth attending to. The "religion" that is attacked here is, while it can be socially toxic, kid stuff, essentially that of fundamentalist non-thinkers--creationists and the like. They indulge in the same sort of smug, reductive assertiveness that this piece itself displays in abundance.

No, there is no "evidence" for the existence of "God." Knowing that doesn't necessarily enforce a blinkered atheistic perspective. A truly open mind--heart, soul, imagination--will bypass televangelist simplicity, but pause to wonder over the visions of Buddha, Whitman, Rilke, Buber, and so many others...for which there are no evidence either of course...perhaps only to arrive at Melville's "pondering repose of If."

Meanwhile, why all this sanctimonious blather about the erroneousness of all religion? What is its relevance to the social concerns of Alternet? The religious right, in several well known ways, is indeed a worrisome social force. But this writer, with her blunderbuss logic, aims so broadly as to undermine from the start any possibility of a closely argued analysis of the regressive and destructive activities of Godmongers in contemporary society.

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Try reading Carl Jung's PSYCHOLOGY & RELIGION.

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This article is beyond trite. It's the musings of a 14-year-old stuck in Sunday school. In fact, it is my musings as a 14-year-old stuck in Sunday school.

Faith is unqualified belief. It is accepting someone else's explanation for phenomena you personally can't prove and probably don't even understand.

Like God's working in "mysterious ways" ... or String Theory ... or the Warren Report.

All humans live faith-based lives. There are no "hard facts." Not one. Even Isaac Newton was eventually proven wrong. ("Truth" can only ever be an approximation. Only falsity can be proven.) In short, all the world's a hypothesis. Then you die.

(Then maybe you find out who was right. Or maybe not.)

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credit for. Put aside those religious differences and focus on common ground. You would be surprised to see how well the two would get along. Religious people attacking atheists and vice versa only serves to keep the ruling class empowered at the expense of the working class.

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I don't get it. You have your beliefs and I have mine. So mine is irrational; the only person that harms is me. I'm not about to attack your beliefs, so why do you feel the need to attack mine?

The rub is that such aggression almost invariably results from some sort of inadequacy - real or imagined - on part of the aggressor. So how and why do you feel inadequate and/or threatened that you must tear down the beliefs of others?

Build yourself up if you feel the need. The world has enough people trying to tear each other down. I believe it's much better for one to claim oneself rational than to claim another irrational.

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Personally I wouldn't give a hoot what anyone believed, so long his/her beliefs didn't effect MY life. Example: "God does not want anyone to dance -- it's a sin." Then they all get together to elect politicians who proceed to outlaw dancing and make it a felony crime for anyone to dance (get an abortion, smoke pot, have sex, curse, be homosexual, live with a lover, and so on ad nauseum).

So the whole "it's okay to be irrational" thing drives me up the wall. You want people to leave you to your beliefs, however irrational, then don't try to do "real world" things based in that irrationality.

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Great article. Good luck getting the willfully deluded to let go of their cherished foolishness though. The God Virus is strong. I feel sorry for believers, I really do. How pitiful to want to fool yourself about the reality of life. Sad, and a waste of brains.

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There is only one reason to be obsessed with others to this degree, whether the purported subject is atheism or veganism or political parties: to avoid admitting that there might be one little thing or two that needs cleaned up or addressed in one's own life. No sane person can be this interested in the thinking of fellow humans. No normal person thinks they're better at deciding anyone's thoughts than that person. GC, you weren't asked, you weren't invited in, and if you really think you can clean up my thinking better than I can, then possibly you could come clean my house? I'd far rather you do that. You're not qualified for this big topic. Read some believers. You are stuck. Read some Emerson. Listen to Bill Moyers. How about Martin Luther King, Jr.? I have a little clue for you: you're not smarter than they are. Another little life tip: they, we, owe you no explanations or justifications. Why are you even interested?

Again, only one real reason possible for all the converting zeal that goes on here: you don't want to admit you have and cause and exacerbate problems. I still say, work on yourselves first. There has to be something, even amidst all the tacit declarations of superiority, even perfection, that you could do to yourself first before starting in on anyone else.

Get busy!

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Amit Goswami, a physicist and author, argues that quantum physics and monistic idealism best explain a broad range of phenomenon and experience.

Consciousness as fundamental may not be what you are referring to as "God".

Since science is a process of discovery, and even its laws are subject to modification or rejection given new experimental data, it can't say it actually proves anything.

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but the faithheads turn right around and use the same tired arguments that she has repeatedly shot down in her four part series on Alternet.

"I exist, therefore God exists."

Talk about arrogance.

"I love my atheist brothers and sisters--but I see them as naive materialists, because they're always asking for material proof of something that is nonphysical."

Did you not read her article?

"All humans live faith-based lives. There are no "hard facts." Not one. Even Isaac Newton was eventually proven wrong."

Really!!! As far as I know Isaac Newton is right on the money.

But all that’s beside the point because I’d like to attempt to put this baby to bed. Of course what I’m about to say will not change the mind of the stubborn religionist that refuses to see the truth.
I would like to show that God could not possibly exist using a thought experiment. Scientists use them all the time. One of my favorite ones is Schrödinger’s Cat. Anyway, let’s look at Gods existence as real and let’s therefore look at the properties of God. 1) Immortality 2) Perfection 3) Omnipotence 4) Omniscience. Let’s look at #3 Omnipotence. Omnipotence means that God is all powerful. There’s nothing God cannot do or nothing that is beyond his power. Okay, if that’s the case, can God make a rock so heavy that even God is unable to move it? This proves that Omnipotence is an impossibility, not an improbability but an impossibility. Of course you can imbue a non-existent being with non-existent powers. Then there’s always the question of who created God. If the universe requires a first cause then why doesn’t God require a first cause? Of course I realize that if any faithhead reads this they will not answer that question. As Ms Christina points out in the article, the religionist will never give a straight answer and will always skirt the issue. I expect none less from anyone trying so desperately to hang on to their imaginary friend.

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After reading the article and several of the comments, it is rather apparent that both sides are arguing with idiots.

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The enemy isn't religion or God in it's millions of incarnations, it is proselytizing a specific belief under threat of punishment.

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It all boils down to predictability. Observations can lead to predictive behavior. Supernatural explanations, no matter how confoluted, can not. Why would I even want to believe in something where I couldn't use it to use. It has no utilitarian value other than that of a placebo effect.

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"So if there really were a non-physical world affecting this physical one, we should be able to observe those effects. Even if we can't observe the causes directly." - You might be looking at those effects without recognizing them because your mind is as closed as that of a religious fundamentalist.
You say that we cannot prove the existence of God, but I have never met a religious person who claims that they can. It's always the same thing with you: implicitly, no matter how much you deny it, you are certain that you know everything about reality, such that you can say with certainty that you know that God is not in it. This is never going to get less silly.

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IMO religions by design have kept the human race in constant turmoil. I beleive religions were designed to keep us from the truth by the very same type people who rule this world today.

A man from Nazareth tried to teach us the truth a few thousands years ago but most of his teachings have been twisted by men with agendas.

You look here and there for God when all you need to do is look within. We speak to the creator through prayer and the creator speaks to us through silence. Learn to meditate. It will change your life for the better.

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There can be arguments all day both for and against religion. But the simple fact is this: religion is useful for the ruling minority to control the rest of us. It has been since the beginning of time.

Just claim that your King, Emperor, tribal chief, President, or whatever is Ordained of God (or the gods) and you've neutered any opposition to the government. Setup a priesthood to keep pounding the theme home to the masses. It's been this way since ancient Egypt right through the Roman Empire to the rulers of the Middle Ages and to the America of today.

Keep the masses hypnotized and tell them that their sufferings here due to your oppression (either politcal or economic) are of no consequence because they just need to wait for their reward in heaven. Tell them that the prevailing economic order is God's design, and that if you succeed you are God's elect. If you fail, well---then obviously the gods are displeased with you.

Just get the masses into the habit of folding their hands, bowing their heads, fingering their beads, praying to the East, and whatever ritual; and they are like a bunch of neutered sheep!

And you thing the good ol' U S of A is any better then any of the old-time theocracies? Think again. Just look at all the praying that is done at presidential inaugurals. Prayers in the Congress. How our politicians rush to show how "godly" they are. When have you last heard a member of congress call religion bullshit? Yet most of the people pushing this crap--and I'm talking the political and ECONOMIC ruling class in this country--don't believe a jot of the religious sap themselves.

Marx said it best, and sooo true: "Religion is the Opiate of the People.

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Your logic is so tangled up in your sexuality and your emotions you don't know your anal sphincter from a hole in terra firma. Who gives a rat’s ass if you think there is a God that operates on your terms? You are all demonstrably insane. Your arrogance touches the sky and would pull the stars to earth unchecked.

There is Deity because of an atom of truth, forgetting about the living fire that beats in your chest. Three quarters of the human family sincerely believe trees are insensate non-sentient beings. But, if you hook all the trees to galvanometers and harm one a whole forest gives a silent electromagnetic scream!

Then you babble about faith being the answer to everything and none of you believes you’re an animal just like me. Your Churches do not brain wash they brain defile! They take the thing out of your skulls in those halls of worship and drop them on the floor covered in original sin and then try to stuff them back in to the empty brain box. You can’t fool me; an original thought would kill ninety-nine point nine % of you!

Your very lives from birth to death are determined by nitwits that are not even as human as you are. The Priests and Preachers are demons addicted to suffering pain and death and you are ready to emulate them. This is because you are superior? What? You say you’re not a religionist? Horse manure you believe there is no God because there is not a shred of evidence whilst everything living reports you’re lie by existence.

Then you say I am a religionist because I am practicing religion right here and now, Horse manure! I have seen the aura around every living thing since I was old enough to see. Now there is a device that will allow you to see what I see and YOU say Horse manure and refuse to look! Isn’t that exactly how the Catholic Church condemned Galileo Galilea? Fie upon you and this life bring me a human that can think and I will show you a God!
Religionists! Phah. I don’t know what a God would look like; maybe he would have a beautiful blond mane and a sorrel coat, and be shod with golden horse shoes, or he might even look like an Aardvark. You humans would really be in trouble after the way you have treated his people.

Atheists, maybe he looks like a blank page in a blank book, and then you could write your own stories about how things got this fornicated vertically. I don’t think I would like your world though it would be the mirror image of this one, Yuk!

Ok, I have shot my mouth off long enough time for a salad and an apple juice.

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I agree with every argument made by this author, however, I should point out that equating "religion" with "god" omits Buddhism from the equation. It is not a tenet of faith that Buddhists believe in any god. The Buddha taught his moral and philosophical ideas inviting any who heard them to see for themselves -- including any god who might be listening in because the doctrine would apply to any divinity as much as any sentience.

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Interesting. Sounds just like the things I hear when I ask for facts showing natural selection leads to new species.

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...you really need to let it go. Those of us who are Atheists/Non-X-chins really don't care....why should you?

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If someone believes in God, gods, or is an atheist, I'm not really concerned. However, I do tire of the arrogance of White European-descended people and the continuation of manifest destiny in liberal secular atheist discourse. And yes manifest destiny is also prominent in conservative Christian discourse. The fact is that manifest destiny remains the overarching foundation of much of White 'civilization'.

Of course, some will say that this has nothing to do with race, yet it very profoundly is all about race. Go to Africa, Asia, Latin America and ask about evidence for God - and you will find a long list of evidence consisting of healing, help, protection, miracles, etc. But White World has decided that the European Enlightenment is the universally correct perspective on everything. So that if White Person's scientific worldview (which is considered as absolute as any fundamentalist religious worldview) is not satisfied, then the other must be a flake, lying, deceived, ignorant, perhaps a savage.

Outside of White World people have learned to accept some plurality. It certainly hasn't been perfect, but there is much less concern with convincing others to accept their belief systems. And modern atheism has become a proselytizing belief system, as much as conservative Christianity.

So both atheism and religious belief get away with assuming that their basic foundational assumptions are absolute, and never shall they be questioned. Doing so would be heresy!

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Having had success with one article, Greta, the supposed Atheist, is back with another article of faith. Just want to put her nonsense in perspective. She does not represent Atheist or Freethinkers. She is a religious nutter stirring up peoples' emotions about religion. We, Freethinkers don't do that!

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but didn't like it because I had nothing to say during sex

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In Greta's last column on this subject, she correctly argued that any scientific theory that explains any conceivable set of observations, actually explains nothing. Belief in a Higher Supernatural Power is not a part of science, but still...

So I would like to know what she would consider convincing "proof" that God does not exist? What sort of empirical evidence would enable her to reject the hypothesis "God does not exist" at the .01 level of significance? Because if this is one of those things that cannot be expressed in the form of a hypothesis that can actually tested against empirical evidence, maybe she should start thinking about it in a different way.

We used to call people like Greta "half smart" in the sense that they are intelligent people who are crippled by a complete lack of intellectual humility, which consists in part of knowing what you know and what you don't know. Greta just knows what she knows.

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I'm an atheist and agree with what most of the atheist are saying. At first, it was refreshing to see these kind of articles. Atheism in the U.S. had been kind of in the closet since the McCarthy era and came out in reaction to the hyper-religious warmongering earlier this decade. So it was nice to see these ideas out and being discussed.
But now it seems like a broken record (I wonder if this idiom is becoming obsolete) where we get our weekly "religion is stupid" article. Surely there are some more important subjects !
Actually, I'm contradicting myself from months ago when I said Alternet should err on the side of accepting more postings rather than towards being more selective or outright censoring.
I must imagine, however, that if I'm getting sick of these articles (where I mostly agree with the content), most other people must be downright annoyed.
On the other hand, I didn't resist the temptation to click on the article. Perhaps how many people click on an article shouldn't be used to rate how important it is.

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I have a question for anyone with the true courage to give a reasonable answer.
I am an atheist.
I own an appliance repair business and have several elderly and poor customers who truly cannot afford to pay anyone for my type services.
I ALWAYS do whatever repairs they may need absolutely WITHOUT CHARGE.
Last year, as I was loading my tools into my vehicle, the nosy neighbor lady came out to talk 'AT" me.
She said that she knew what I did for her neighbors and that I was "christain" and would surely go to heaven.
I looked her in the eye and told her that I was an atheist and that I did these things just because I like people and understand that some are truly needy.
She puts on her attitudinal judge's robe and says, "Oh, that's terrible. You will be going to hell."
Well, I had to get out of there before I laughed in her face.
I'm not typically as rude as judgmental others.
Well, here is my question:
Those of you who are "believers", because I am an atheist, do you say I should stop doing these things for these poor people because I'm an atheist or, do you think that maybe we atheists are good people, even though we do not subscribe to your beliefs?
ANYBODY??

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Governance is driven primarily by money with ideology (party, religious, etc.) a distant second at best.

Religion is (the "was" and "will be" is a guess) a social construct used to manipulate levels of influence.

Personal evolution (spiritual/energetic and material) begins by mastering Awareness. Belief systems hinder this ability.

There is the known, the unknown and the unknowable. As one progresses, things from the unknown will move into the known and things from the unknowable become the unknown.

As it turns out Reason is more closely aligned with Beliefs in that it is a hindrance to progress. Reason needs to be kept in check and used to promote pragmatism in living. Exploring and understanding the unknown requires this more limited role for Reason.

If we survive, and if we want to continue to grow, we need to promote the evolution of Reason itself.

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Is the accuracy of Bible Prophecy.
An example is Psalm 22.

Jewish Rabbis will tell you Psalm 22 is a Prophecy about the Messiah who is yet to come

Christians believe Psalm 22 is a prophecy about the crucifixion of Christ.

If you are really curious why Christians believe you should try reading it and see what picture you see. It is a short read about a page long.

Then read any of the stories of the crucifixion in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, the prophecy is chilling when you realize Psalm 22 was written 1000 years before Christ was born.

There is something in the order of 124 prophecies about Christ in the Bible that were fulfilled.

Mathematicians say that for 1/3 of them to be fulfilled accurately the odds would be 1 in 10 to the 157 power which is a number that is so big I think it is a 1 with a 153 zeros after it.

Many believers rely on faith, the feeling in their heart that God is real and they don't study the Bible from an apologetics stand point so it is not surprising that few can give a reasonable answer to your question.

If you don't have a Bible and are curious to check out Psalm 22 here is a link you can read it in any version of the Bible and in almost any language.

Bible

For me that Prophecy is the "Money"

For others I think the words of Robert Hunter from Scarlet Begonias nails it.

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

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I just read the following article. I think it's relevant to the argument posited here.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/hauser09/hauser09_index.html

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What is it with these fundamentalist atheists and their obsession with what other people believe? I bet the author thinks she's attractive too, without being able to offer a shred of evidence in support. Like Hitchens and the rest of that crowd, their one-note tune is to set up straw men arguments, pretending to present the spiritual or religious experience-- IN THEIR OWN WORDS-- and then tear down their own constructs. Brilliant. Very Bush-like, very Rove-like.
The validity of a person's religious identity or belief exists in two realms, one of which is in the heart and mind and therefore not objective, transferable or subject to evidence of the type that any of these fools would recognize or acknowlege. Oh well, too bad, huh? The second is in the actions taken by people arising from their religious and spiritual beliefs. Some of those actions involved killing and dying-- negative reactions, but no less evidence of the power of what motivates them. Do people blow up themselves and others for smoke and mirrors? Sure, just look at what we do in the name of the greatest religion of all-- American exceptionalism, and the faux spread of "global capitalism"--- perhaps the most life destroying and oppression causing religion ever devised. Yet, those actions make capitalism and exceptionalism real things that manifest themselves in physical reality, just as suicide bombers do with their beliefs. On the other side of the coin, religious belief and submission to a creed thought to come from an all just and merciful creator is the genesis of billions of acts of kindness, forebearance, mercy, justice, charity and self sacrifice by billions of rational humans. Thus, whether for good or bad, there is something real and inescapably empirical that comes from nowhere else but the religious or spiritual places in the hearts of human beings.
The fact is, everyone has a religion-- whether they believe in God, gods or nothing. They believe in capitalism or just plain money; sex; power; pain; universal love and universal hate. Everyone is in the game with some kind of unevidenced, inexplicable, subjective ante. But somehow, if that ante is, say, Jesus Christ, or Allah, or Buddha, it's not valid unless it's objectively proven to some self appointed arbiter of what's "true" and "untrue."

Uh huh. And to those people, there is only one response necessary: FUCK OFF ASSHOLE AND MIND YOUR OWN INSANITY.

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I get the feeling that the Crucifixion and Resurrection events had to wait until people had systems in place to record historical events among peoples coming from different directions and beliefs.

There is so much evidence of both events and of many people seeing Jesus afterward among the histories of different peoples that we can trust the info, no matter how old.

The fact that David and Isaiah were both given shocking visions of Good Friday as long as 1100 years before they happened just offers confirmation on top of confirmation.

However, as with Islam, Buddhism, or Judaism, to ask the question in this article's title seems fatuous. There's faith, and then there's not. That's why we each get to decide on our own - with the proviso/warning that Hell really exists. Sorry.

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But I don't think God really minds what you believe or don't-- he loves you for what you do and who you are. There is a portion of the Gospel (one collection of truths among many) in which Jesus describes two men, servants of a master. The master commands them to do a certain act, and the first swears and grumbles and says he doesn't care what the master says, but then, from the motivations of his own heart, he goes and does as commanded. The second bows and scrapes and tells the master over and over how he will do all as commanded, then goes off and does nothing. Which of these, asks Jesus, does the will of his master?

So, you do our master's will with your love and charity, and God loves you for it, and I love you for it, and you are on our team whether you wear our jacket or not.

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GC claims this is what happens in her many conversations with believers. I'll bet I know why. They just don't have the same evangelistic zeal as her. And apparently don't feel the same need to decide for her what her thoughts should be. Maybe next she'll try to decide where everyone should and shouldn't live.

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In the sixties there was an open doorway to peer into non-dense physical reality. Drugs for some were a way to see that more existed than what we normally perceive. The alternative culture provided a way to look on the physical plane at possibilities of a far different, more spiritual world. Some people within these two overlapping cultures went on to deep spiritual adventures and understanding of the value of the religious experience at a level far beyond the pew-based norm.

Jimi Hendrix made the best statement on the matter - "are you experienced?" - for in the end the spiritual is not simply about reading books, taking classes or getting a parchment that says that you know everything about what religion 'is'. Rather it is about delving into the water, doing the rituals, going on an extreme adventure and immersing yourself on an ultimate joy ride to the other side. It is about freeing the 'om' that sings in the middle of the head to show you its realms of reality. It is an ultimate trip down the rabbit hole best done without drugs but instead with those who know how to go there.

The challenge with an internet versus physical based counterculture is that it takes you to the intellectual part of mind and leaves out the more expanded mind matrix needed for heightened experience. So we can argue one way or another on a forum such as this but not create the cosmic electrical field necessary for experience.

Had a friend I meditated with in Berkeley who helped me take a low voltage meditation circuit into a quite potent experience. He talked about his experiences with Meher Baba who would attract large crowds in the 60's and where people would end up levitating among other paranormal experiences during his meditation visits. As time went on and people checked out of the counterculture and got 'real' jobs and 'normal' realities the amount participating in these meditations shrunk and the circuit got cold leading to a great lessening of unusual experience. In my city I offer a meditation that literally can electrocute you. Yet few wish to be experienced.

The criticizing of religion these days has much more to do with believing that this stupid box with its assumed political, religious, societal, warmongering and 3D realities are fixed. The power of the '60s was that nothing was fixed but anything could be transcended into a more vivid and exciting paradigm. That transcendence takes what religion call faith but one combined with an unwavering commitment to the action needed to bring a better world.

It would be better to help transform, transmute and transfigure religion into its divine archetype and see what it really is than to stay in a level of mind that the buddhists would say is part of the lowest rung of hell. To those who have achieved mystical and occcult experience, to throw out the ladder of religion just because it has been debased by mundane humans would be to deny the nectar of life. After all, God is not a bullying stick but can be likened to an abbreviation for the Greatness, Glory and Grandness of Divinity that is experienced when the best, not worst, within us is embodied.

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Jesus is the evidence.

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I'd much rather be earnestly seeking than have either rigid athiest or religious bible thumping hubris. Both close the door on further inquiry once their minds are made up.

I'll tell you, I respond much more peacefully and hopefully to the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi or the Buddha than I do to Christoper Hitchens, and Richard Dawkins or Rick Warren and Pat Robertson. True sages were never interested in branding or hype. They just wanted to eliminate suffering.

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"And I am repeatedly struck by how weak and sloppy modern theology is. It either redefines God out of existence, defining him so abstractly he might as well not exist, or ... "

The author won't accept a definition of religion which doesn't fit her criteria for ridicule.

But go ahead. The religion that fits your criteria richly deserves ridicule.

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What is physical? Where is that little particle? Why is it that everything appears as a wave until you 'look' at it?
Seems to me that the author has faith that there is a little particle, but I see no proof. She believes that there is only the physical, as if that argument is without a doubt, yet, no such particle/physicality has ever been found.
Why is the universe constructed the way it is? Why should anything be organized in any way at all? Why should there be gravity? Why should there be planets?
Life is a miracle. Scientists refuse to believe in miracles, yet they cannot explain the why of things, they can only describe what happens.
There was a show in the sixties where a caveman was transported in time to our time. He was asked about how he thought about the earth, how was it supported in the universe so to speak, and being ignorant of the movement of the heavens etc, he said that the earth sat on a giant turtle. He was asked, what does the turtle sit on. He thought about it for a moment and said, it's turtles all the way down.
We live in a world of potentialities, what is the physical aspect of a potentiality? What is physical about responsibility? What is physical about a concept?
The only thing you can know is yourself. Is the world in your head? Are you walking, talking, thinking in your head?
So does God exist or not? Define God first, then we'll talk.

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looking down on humanity at this moment, I can tell you one thing: I'll bet She's really PISSED-OFF!!!

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Per the authors objections:

"The spiritual realm is beyond this physical one -- we shouldn't expect to see evidence of it."

- Jesus was a real man. He's the evidence of the interaction between the physical and spiritual realm. He was born of a virgin, performed miracles, fulfilled prophecies and rose from the dead, all to prove he was who he said he was, the son of God.

"Religious experiences are inherently irrational -- beyond questions of reason or evidence."

- Jesus taught a very rational religion, namely "Love God (of which he was the proof), and Love each other".

"Religion can't be proved or disproved with 100 percent certainty. Therefore, it's a question of personal faith, not subject to reason or evidence."

- The only faith required is the faith to believe the historical record of Jesus and the personal testimony of those who's lives that have been changed by him.

"It's disrespectful and intolerant to tell people their religious beliefs are wrong."

- This is true, especially if they have historical evidence supporting their beliefs and personal experience that supports the historical record.

"There are wonderful advanced modern theological arguments for God. I just can't tell you what they are."

- The most advanced theological argument for God is Jesus. It's only about 2000 years old.

"Atheists are close-minded, closing themselves off to realms of experience beyond this mere mortal coil."

- OK, but are they open to considering actual human history that involves a real man with a real body?

"If They Had The Money, They'd Show It."

- Nobody showed you Jesus?...did you talk to any Christians?

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Believers and atheists agree all religions of the past are all fiction and no facts.

Atheists see no distinction between past, present and future religions.

Believers think present religion(s) is/are all facts and no fiction. Please present the facts (or at least the logic) that indicates so!

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I agree with the author. Her next article should denounce other religious nonsense like love and hope. Where do they come up with such oppessive drivel? I mean, you can't "prove" any of this stuff.

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When I was a Kid, I hated Cod Liver Oil, with almost Religious Fervour...

But My Mum, who was Very Well Educated, thought that pouring a spoonful of this stuff into my mouth when I was two years old was doing me good.

I bet you can't remember being two years old - O.K. I might have been three..but it is one of my earliest memories - so perhaps the cod liver oil worked...

Now personally, I am extremely fond of Olive Oil, and there is a Great Deal of Evidence That Olive Oil is Good For You...

My Wife meanwhile reads the Women's Pages, and she is convinced that the oil found in Mackeral is very good for you - and Mackeral is Incredibly Cheap - Despite The Large Numbers of Whales eating them around the Coast of Britain - Now That We Have Exported All Our Pollution To China...

But my Son, seems to have a complete Aversion to Oil. I think it is down to being Programmed With All This Tony Blair Global Warming Shit. Not Only CO2 is Bad - But Oil is Bad...

Now He has Already Blown up One Engine on The M6 through not putting enough oil in the engine of his car....

And today two year later, he was driving the clone - there aren't that many about - and to be honest - it looks very similar to his other one - that got carted away....

And so when we got back from shopping he was their almost in tears....

I said "You Stupid Cunt" If That Happens You Slam Your Brakes on and Stop (As Safely As Possible) And Phone Me - Or The Royal Automobile Club (RAC - The Fix Cars When They Stop on The Road - Unlike the AA - Who Just Tow Them Away)

And We will put some oil in Your Car...

Under No Circumstances Do You Drive Your Car any Further Unless Your Girlfriend or Wife is About To Give Birth

I think he got away with it...

But his car took over 2 litres of oil, and then he said...

Its O.K. - it's just a fuse that has gone...

And he splashed oil all over the fucking place...

But his OLD British Sports Car Still Goes

British Racing Green

Tony

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Dear Greta -- I do not understand the point you are trying to make in these many articles. Are you telling me that if I am to be a rational progressive, I must give up all beliefs in a spiritual realm outside of what can be rationally and scientifically proven or else I am not really rational? What is the point of that? Or are you just like the conservative Christians who require that we all believe as they do? Why do you need me to not believe in anything outside of what can be scientifically proven to your satisfaction? Ok, I get it that you have proven to yourself that the spiritual realm does not exist and you have every right to assert that. But why keep writing article after article and posting them here on alternet telling me that if I do not agree with you, I am an irrational progressive? What is the point of that? Why can't you just let me be, poor benighted soul that I am, stubbornly trying to maintain an open mind about spiritual matters?

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Dear Greta -- I do not understand the point you are trying to make in these many articles. Are you telling me that if I am to be a rational progressive, I must give up all beliefs in a spiritual realm outside of what can be rationally and scientifically proven or else I am not really rational? What is the point of that? Or are you just like the conservative Christians who require that we all believe as they do? Why do you need me to not believe in anything outside of what can be scientifically proven to your satisfaction? Ok, I get it that you have proven to yourself that the spiritual realm does not exist and you have every right to assert that. But why keep writing article after article and posting them here on alternet telling me that if I do not agree with you, I am an irrational progressive? What is the point of that? Why can't you just let me be, poor benighted soul that I am, stubbornly trying to maintain an open mind about spiritual matters?

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What the author is asking for is intellectual understanding of the universe on her own terms, while admitting that many of the mechanisms or languages of the universe are now outside of the realm of her understanding. This is the converse of blind faith, blind skepticism, which is still more or less the same coin. Perhaps she is only slightly less lazy than the worst example of believers that she refers to with her B.A. in religion. The recent AlterNet article on research correlating ego expectations with the voice of God is telling in this respect to the criteria the author demands for “proof” of God, while affirming an absence of God. Your understanding of God then, is absence of God based upon your terms. The author also curiously, or rather, clumsily refers to “religion.” Not all religions make the same claims about a God(s), nor would the authors of many of the world’s sacred texts agree with the conclusions that were drawn by the believers or established religion that would hold them sacred. Maybe it is semantics that is the issue here. The impatience that the author has with religious “believers” seems also to be the same impatience she has for applying the scientific method to direct individual experience with spiritual/psychological work and practice that cuts through semantics. This is “throwing the baby out with the bath water.” The author wants easy answers and I say like all else, through methodical and deliberate work, not (un)belief--only success is your proof. There are those that have dedicated their entire lives to this knowledge and she would want the Cliff’s notes. That seems to be slightly less than what your B.A. has provided you. For one who has never been to the summit of a mountain, all I can offer is for you to get the best guide based upon your inherent judgment of your abilities and skills and start hiking. Maybe you are just sick of hearing about how great the view is from up there, and from one who makes no claims and seeks not to convince, I do not blame you. You perhaps will wait for a helicopter that may never come. It seems as if you want it to, so I hope it does. But really, what else do you have to do but write empty articles that criticize those who would, for good or ill, seek to address the great mystery in their lives?

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The principle of entropy holds that left to chance, things tend to become more random and disorganized.
For example, when you buy a deck of cards, they are arranged in numerical and suit order. Once you take them out of the box and begin playing, the cards become randomized. It is only an infinitesimal chance of a shuffle producing the original order. The only practical way to get them back in the original order is to sort them, which is applying an intelligent action.
Chemical compounds tend to break down into simpler and simpler forms, energy tends to dissapate. The sheer order and complexity of the natural world, particularly life implies an intelligent force building and maintaining a complex system.

Can I prove this beyond a doubt? No, but it does provide an intellectual basis for belief in the supernatural. Keep in mind, this is a long way from believing God has spoken to me, or this or that particular set of rules and prejudices is what one should base their life on.

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It is one thing for Greta to claim she doesn’t believe other people’s explanations for the existence of the purposeful, unpredictable creativity in the universe. However it is quite another thing for her to claim she has the explanation - that purposeful creativity doesn’t exist and the universe is nothing but a big meaningless accident of physical entities coming together for no particular purpose. Anything beyond physical matter is a figment of Man’s imagination - supernatural and evil - she claims. From the beginning of human existence, Man seems to have pondered the difference between right and wrong. Finally in the 21st century, Greta claims to have the answer - it is Man‘s speculations that are evil, she claims. What is “right” is to accept reality as a meaningless physical device. “Right” is what you can get by with. “The free market” and “survival of the fittest” will sort it all out.

One might ask: but why does Man speculate? I know Greta’s answer to that question. Some piece of DNA appeared in a human genome, accidentally and for no particular reason. This piece of DNA somehow created an urge to speculate, Greta would claim. This urge allowed the speculating human to outlive and out reproduce all non-speculating humans, and thus became a dominant trait. Survival of the fittest. So you are fighting a losing battle, Greta. We who speculate about the unknown seem to be the fittest. Some of our speculations might be simplistic and naïve, but we will continue to speculate.
Bertvan
http://30145.myauthorsite.com/

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My wife believes in fairies. Meh.

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I had given all My Money Away and More That I Didn't Have To The Limit of My Credit To Save Hundreds, Maybe Thousands of Lives in Africa...

(Blame Bob Goldoff and That Bono Bloke)

At the time I was smoking rather a lot of cannabis... and outside our house there was a rough garden/field...

And in this garden were all these wooden stumps standing up just above the long grass...

And it was all layed out like a chess board or so it seemed in my stoned state...

We had two cats - Mother and Daughter...

And the cats were on these wooden stumps...

And I could think to Chloe (Mum) - Jump There - and She Did....

And so I tried it With Her Daughter (Pretty Face) Jump There - and She Did...

It seemed that I could get our two cats to move round the chessboard of wood stumps just by thinking at them...

O.K. It was about 3:00 am in the morning - and I thought - no this is completely ridiculous - I must be hallucinating...

And then I went to bed and cuddled my Girlfriend and I Knew I Had Touched God..

Or thats the way it seemed...

She said Tony - You Have To Stop Smoking and Go Back To Work.

So I Did

And We Got Married and Had Kids

Tony

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maybe I'll force myself to read one of her arrogant, sloppy articles all the way through.

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While I agree with the arguments this is a pointless silly article as religious believers are not rational and are not open to argument in the first place. They believe, full stop. I used to argue this with a guy called Rowan Williams when I lived in Swansea as a young man and although he is very intelligent his answer came down to - its a matter of faith. You might as well argue with a cat as a religious believer.

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There is much that is hidden, grasshopper !

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Free thinker here. Blind faith in it's self means no evidence.

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Our entire world-view should be derived only from the natural sciences. The absurdity of this should be apparent.

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All animals have the survival instinct but the human animal has evolved to the point where he can contemplate his own demise, the inevitability of death. It's scary to stare at the spectre of death. What? No more me? And so religion, with it's promise of an afterlife where one can continue on in some fashion, gamboling with the saints and cherubs while Mary and Jesus look placidly on or having mansion upon mansion and 72 beautiful virgins (none of them wearing glasses) is more comforting and acceptable. Who can blame them, or I mean us?

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Greta needs to do a little intellectual leg-work if she wishes to raise her arguments to something at least interesting; perhaps she could read a little philosophy of science that's critical of science. She needs to read some philosophy that's critical of materialism and address that if she wants to appear a real intellectual.

If she told me she were conscious, I wouldn't pin her to the wall and ask her to "prove it!" This is a way of showing that most of our "evidence" - a word that reveals her extremely scientistic world-view - that contradicts the materialistic paradigm is not measurable or observable, b/c it's something related to inner-work or is simply subjective.

Also, for Christina, to posit anything outside the materialistic paradigm is open to four "articles" of criticism, but we could suppose that she'd leave Daniel Dennet alone for suggesting that one day we'll actually be able to leave our physical, fleshly bodies and become robots. (Did he really say that? Yes, he did. (See "The End of Science"))

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There ain't any.

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Religion is man- made up nonsense
Bible approx. 6000 yrs old
humankind has been around a couple of million years
dinosaurs existed hundreds of million yrs ago
Earth five-billion yrs old
But approx 6,000 yrs ago ----someone thought -up Genesis and the rest of the stupidity that follows ---RIDICULOUS
RELIGION+CAPITALISM= DEATH&DESTRUCTION

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I think you are painting with too wide a brush.

Despite the obvious conundrum contained in your title, that being that belief needs evidence, I must say that the religion I am dabbling with seems to lack the problems you are concerned about.

A few tenets of the B'ahai faith are; that if the writing of the faith and science disagree, then science wins, and that men and women are equal (they even advocate that if you are in a poor area and have a boy and girl child but only enough money to educate one of them then you must choose the girl).

For a religion they are pretty liberal.

But I understand your problems with the religious and the demanding of evidence. I have the same angst when dealing with academics masquerading as scientists and having belief in their pet theories sans proof.

Could it be the problem you have is untenable belief systems in general of which most/all religions are a subset?

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Well, I wrote a response that you had posted at dailypaul.com. Then, I followed your posting to here and saw that it was actually much longer.
I will add just a few more comments to what I have already said at dailypaul.com.

The evidence for God is everywhere. All things reveal God and nothing but God. Even evil only makes sense in a Biblical worldview where evil came in after creation and we by nature, when we are acting according to the image of God in us, are called to fight evil. Atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism have no basis to philosophical/moral basis to fight evil since evil is normal to reality. For Atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism is to fight against "god" (ie. what is normal). I don't defend the religions of Atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism. They have no defense. Atheism is negation; it is acknowledging that my foundation is the chance void where there is neither knowledge, rationality, morality, meaning, dignity or anything but the void. Buddhism and Hinduism have nothing to offer as an answer to anything except that "all reality is One" and so to talk about objects is "maya" (ie. an illusion). Science becomes a hoax because its nature is to make distinctions about objects and particulars. This is nonsense to the Oneness view of reality that Buddhism and Hinduism requires if its adherents would reach Nirvana. Bottom line: nobody lives in a non-Christian theistic world. You yourself are evidence of the Christian God and of nothing else. Even the evil you have committed (and we are all sinners) only makes sense if evil is not normal and the fact that it is opposed to God and, if we understand it correctly, it is opposed to us. Only the Christian world view has the foundation to support capital punishment of child rapists. For your world view, a child rapist is just what the environment produces after the evolutionary clock has run a few billion years and such could never be considered abnormal. It can only be described by atheists as "what is". You are a liar and a cheat, even though at best, a self-deceived liar: "Let God be true and every man a liar" (and I too am a sinner, yet redeemed and restored to knowledge by Christ in "Whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge"). Why won't you come to Christ and begin to have a foundation for your knowledge, dignity, law, justice, purpose, meaning? Atheism is simply negation and fighting against yourself. Atheism is simply a philosophical perspective that is only in your mind. The real world, that God created, allows us to have knowledge and rational debate. These only make sense because there is a rational God and you are created in His image.

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I realise that many people probably dislike me intensely, but no one on Alternet has ever threatened me with violence and to be honest only two people have ever as a result of something I have written on the internet - one of who'm I personally know..

And I wasn't posting on his American Extreme Right Wing Website - Though he did invite me. There are some people I do not trust with my Son's tunnelled IP Adress - especially if they used to work for The NSA...(That is The Intelligent Bit of The CIA)

Now I know I can wind some people up...Look my Competetion Was Scousers (They are Working Class People From Liverpool) - And I come From Oldham.. We Never Came To Blows - In Fact We Just Burst Out Laughing - Cos We All Knew There Would Be No Violence...

But Fucking Rich, Right Wing, Christian, White Racist, Private Army People - They Have No Fucking Sense of Humour At All...

So This is What I Replied To Him When He Displayed a Photo of His Latest Machine Gun - On an English Really Soft Polite Website Where I am Not Allowed To Say Fuck

Look, its not my fault if it is a virus, and I don't think it is...

I was just responding to this Right Wing Extreme EX-NSA Lunatic - With a Picture of His Latest Machine Gun

I simply Did a Google Search on the Words Boy With Pea-Shooter...

And I got this in response.

So far as I can tell it is virus free, but it does originate from a Russian Website and does have a rather unusual name

Click on it Your Peril...

"I have been meaning to reply to your post for quite awhile, and was almost immediately going to respond with a picture of my LAW

But I thought you would think - No way would that hippie have one of those

You Know a LAW

You can Buy Cheaper Versions from Norway - The Canadians Use Them...

But Anyway

I did a bit of Research

I think it was a Quarter of a Million Machine Guns Held Legally in Private Hands in America - Yes I know About The 1986 Thing...

And Over 200 Million Other Guns Held Legally in Private Hands in America...

I also discovered something that didn't really surprise me - and of course this varies from State to State in America...

In order for a Private Individual to Own a Machine Gun - He Has to Submit The Application Through His Local Law Enforecement Officer - and It Takes About 30 Days or More For Him To Be Checked Out By The FBI...

But If He Is an Officer Of a Private Corporation - There is No Such FBI Check - No Local Police Bollocks - As an Officer of a Private Corporation - He Just Submits The Application and In The Vast Majority of Cases The Licence To Own a Machine Gun is Automatic - There is No Checking...

And a Website That I found in America Selling MachineGuns - Offers a $100 Service For Any Private Individual Who Wants One - to Form a Corporation. He then is an Officer of a Private Company - and Can Then Legally Buy a Machine Gun - In Half The Time and Probably with No Checks

That is The Legal Market

What's The Black Market Like?

Oh a LAW is a Big Shoulder held thing that Blows Up Tanks

Boy With Pea-Shooter


Tony

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Do I detect some anger? There is an old Mexican saying: "The first to anger is the one who loses."

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Funny how its OK for them to tell you that your beliefs are wrong.

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Don't sit there writing a diatribe demanding that I prove my beliefs. The burden is yours. Prove that the are NOT valid. Prove that God does NOT exist. I don't owe you JACK. But when you accuse me of believing a lie, it is YOU who must prove the lie, not me.

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I'm not writing to defend religion, because I don't believe in religion, especially the Richard Dawkins religion of spontaneously appearing random universes. God doesn't need a religion; creation speaks for God.

One might just as fairly ask atheists, where is your evidence? Some of us were raised by bikers and we know bullshit when we read it. BULLSHIT !!!

Who Would Jesus Bomb?

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Our brains evolved to think in an anecdotal way for survival reasons, to see patterns (if x is true than so must y), better to be suspicious than to not survive an encounter with danger. Better to believe in a sky god just in case there is one.

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The author's attitude in every article she has posted on atheism and religion is full of open hostility to matters of faith so why should any believer even bother with her? She is not going to hear it.

She demands objective proof of the spiritual...problem is by its very nature it is subjective. I can no more prove the validity of my religion than she can prove the validity of atheism...both are subjective...and both are predicated on faith of one form or the other.

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That's it. Some people interpret experiences they've had as run-ins with god or gods. Who is anybody else to say they're wrong?

We all just need to do the best we can with the experience and knowledge we've got, and mixed into that is unavoidably a certain amount of wishful thinking and emotional reactions to those implications.

All this anti-religious reaction is at least as fearful and childish as the reactions of those who ignore science and think they're beliefs should allow them to control other people. Only I've never noticed them being this rude.

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By denying the possibility that intelligence higher than that of humans may exist somewhere in the Universe, you are also denying the very concept of evolution. That puts you into the category of religious bigots.
Medstore
online Pharmacy USA

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Hebrews 11:1, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen." God revels something to us that we can not see or prove and tells us to believe that statement. He promises that if we believe what he said and act upon it, then what he said will come about. So we accept and base our belief on what he said. Then later, what said is manifested; thus we have our evidence.

This is what took place in the life of Abraham. Abraham had no child. God told Abraham that if he would believe God's promise and meet God's conditions, then Abraham would have a son. Abraham did his part and had a son, Isaac. His son, Isaac, was the evidence for his belief.

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Hi Greta,

I've not been able to post on AlterNet for several days, for reasons unknown. I've not even been able to look at people's articles.

34 years ago, I will say that a Bolt Of Light came over me, and kept me from sticking a knife in Kevin Ridge's neck, while in a blackout.

I cannot PROVE it to you. I attended AA in Harvard bleeping Square, surrounded by Mensas.

I've a paltry 120 IQ as does the brilliant John Kerry.

People in AA would like to kill me, because I refuse to marry a sponsor. GOD got me sober, not another fucking drunk!

Here is something I posted on my Facebook wall.

One girl named Greta Something WANTED PROOF OF THE EXISTANCE OF GOD...Had I been able to post, I would have said to Greta...Peace without war=North Korea, Vietnam, Red China, Cuba, ALL of the Middle East...300,000,000 deaths at the hands of Atheist/Communists. Then, I was going to show her where Jesus sent out His 12 apostles, to be pretty much eaten alive. LOFL!12 hours ago · Comment ·LikeUnlike · View Feedback (1)Hide Feedback (1)
From Matthew...

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. ... See More

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

I love people who have stopped murdering and stopped being addicted and being nuckin futs!

Raving lunatics are not on my invitation list. I can't forgive people until they stop trying to kill us.

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Just as the Santa Claus belief is used on children for their acculturation until they outgrow it, religion is used on people whose mental development wouldn't otherwise be sophisticated enough to behave properly in a civilized society. People of higher intelligence have always used religion to wield control over populations. People tend to get ticked off at atheists because they're performing the adult-equivalent of telling a 4-year-old that there's no Santa. You'll notice that, generally, religious beliefs operate on a metaphorical level--i.e., these beliefs have to at least be compatible with reality on a metaphorical level: if we are "good," the society benefits and we (collectively) go to heaven; the metaphorical "you" continues after your death, etc... We are long overdue for a religious update; we need a religion that's compatible with science. I would vote for a secular Buddhism similar to what Stephen Batchelor writes and lectures on.

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"It's a hypothesis about the world -- the real, external, non-subjective world."

I would prefer to say that religion offers an exploration of the internal, subjective world. And I would prefer to call it spirituality rather than religion. Religion is a gang of people getting together to congratulate themselves on their own "holiness", while being systematically bilked of their money, time, efforts and self-respect. The churches are purely human institutions whose only real interests are butts in the pews and money in the collection plates. The rest is only window dressing.

But spirituality is a word for the human response to the mysteries of Life, the Universe and Everything. It is akin to art, to a sense of style and to an understanding of oneself. All else is propaganda. And on that basis, there is no sense in looking for hypotheses about the "real, external, non-subjective world." We're talking about the ideal,internal non-objective world. A "mystic" would point out that the highest conception of god that we can name is "nothing", not a thing, but a thought. Is the thought of a dragon a real thought. Yes, it is a real thought, even if there are no real dragons. And a belief in a god as a personal reference point by which we can measure ourselves is a real belief, whether there is a god or not, somewhere in the great beyond.

I am a Christian (or consider myself one), and what god means to me is a voice in the back of my head that gives me good advice, helps me when I'm in difficulties and sometimes tells me about events that are coming in the future. This is a purely subjective phenomenon and only a purblind fool takes it as evidence of anything literal. It matters not what we call it; Socrates called it a "spirit" that advised him. Others call it "god". I have no opinion except that it is useful to me and I am grateful to have it. But it is definitely not something objective or something that I feel impelled to convince others that some hypothesis about it is The Truth and that they must believe it.

The advice that I receive from this "god" amounts to "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. And be prepared for the consequences of anything you do." Good advice from my position. Why should anyone try to make something else of it?

With love under will,

Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville

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"It's a hypothesis about the world -- the real, external, non-subjective world."

I would prefer to say that religion offers an exploration of the internal, subjective world. And I would prefer to call it spirituality rather than religion. Religion is a gang of people getting together to congratulate themselves on their own "holiness", while being systematically bilked of their money, time, efforts and self-respect. The churches are purely human institutions whose only real interests are butts in the pews and money in the collection plates. The rest is only window dressing.

But spirituality is a word for the human response to the mysteries of Life, the Universe and Everything. It is akin to art, to a sense of style and to an understanding of oneself. All else is propaganda. And on that basis, there is no sense in looking for hypotheses about the "real, external, non-subjective world." We're talking about the ideal,internal non-objective world. A "mystic" would point out that the highest conception of god that we can name is "nothing", not a thing, but a thought. Is the thought of a dragon a real thought. Yes, it is a real thought, even if there are no real dragons. And a belief in a god as a personal reference point by which we can measure ourselves is a real belief, whether there is a god or not, somewhere in the great beyond.

I am a Christian (or consider myself one), and what god means to me is a voice in the back of my head that gives me good advice, helps me when I'm in difficulties and sometimes tells me about events that are coming in the future. This is a purely subjective phenomenon and only a purblind fool takes it as evidence of anything literal. It matters not what we call it; Socrates called it a "spirit" that advised him. Others call it "god". I have no opinion except that it is useful to me and I am grateful to have it. But it is definitely not something objective or something that I feel impelled to convince others that some hypothesis about it is The Truth and that they must believe it.

The advice that I receive from this "god" amounts to "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. And be prepared for the consequences of anything you do." Good advice from my position. Why should anyone try to make something else of it?

With love under will,

Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville

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First, kindly don't mistake me for "Mr. Crotch" down there. My Liberal, Democratic Socialist credentials are unquestionable.

I am also a Liberal Christian. PCUSA to be exact.

Just wondering why it's so important to a few for people with beliefs beyond your comprehension to submit proof of some kind. Faith does not require "proof". I don't care if you believe in God or Jesus or whatever. I do, and that's all that matters.
It's a gut feeling that many just don't seem to relate to. Fine. If you're kind, honest, fearless, always standing against lies and cruelty...you're okay in Jesus' eyes whether you believe in Him or not.

Everyone want's to look at faith as though it was some sort of science experiment. Fact is, it's more like a trial. You, the plaintiff, carry the burden of proof. Not me the accused.
I embrace science, which was recently proved wrong concerning the preposterous idea that we were at one time "apes". Science is good, but it has nothing to do with faith. The burden of proof is on you, Greta.

Prove God doesn't exist.

Crotch Boy, in his post, did manage to make one point (must have caused him pain). When science finds where matter originally cam from, then you have an argument.
Until then, all people have a right to their beliefs and faith.
Crotch Boy, like many others throughout history, is a piss poor example of a person of faith. So it's easy to see where the fear of faith comes from. Christianity, Islam, Judism etc haven't exactly had the best representation. Crotch Boy is a perfect example.

But no genuine Liberal would blanket label all those who profess some sort of faith. Would they?

Jesus existed in the flesh. He exists in spirit as well. He was the ultimate Liberal. Hopefully people will at least consider His life and teachings regardless of the esoterical aspects of historical religion.
The way he taught us to treat each other is what's important. The rest is anyone's opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the opposing views. That's why science is good in my eyes. But so-called "Liberals", who simply enjoy attacking people of faith because it's cold outside and they have nothing better to do, show no respect.
Might want to think about that.

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God is EVERYWHERE!

Please look up William Wilberforce. Mr. Wilberforce and John Newton took 20 years to end slavery in the UK. Newton penned, Amazing Grace. He has been a slave ship captain, and lost about 20,000 souls.

Both of these men were about as Godly as a person can get.

Wilberforce loved animals and they were running all over his house.

I have lived in absolute destitution for the last eleven years, without running water. I love the animals. I feed chickadees out of my hand. One hovered in front of my face and landed on my jacket to tell me to cut the shit and fill the feeder!

There are 2 skunks that live under my shed. I bring them table scraps and leave them in front of their hole.

Two years ago, I was able to feed baby raccoons out of my hand, then the little bastards grew up and destroyed my bird feeders. I didn't shoot them, because I made them dependent on me.

Well, today I'm sitting here in my NEW trailer having my first snowfall of the year. My bedroom is lit up like a train station. I stood up to go to the kitchen and scared off a beautiful yearling buck at the edge of my driveway and the street. He didn't go too far.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A DEER IN MY YARD ON THIS LAND I'VE OWNED SINCE 1984!

I stood at the window and called my sweetheart, in full view of the young dear(sic)

He had jumped Johnson's little stone wall and was grazing in their field. He looked at me and jumped the wall again and came back to the edge of my driveway, where I watched him till I could no longer see..

God sends me the people I need, when I need them as well as the critters.

I love animals. I had to kill a couple of red squirrels last year because they were gnawing my feeders to death. I fed them to the crows, or whatever came to my yard at night.

The other day, I almost crashed my car to avoid running over a red squirrel, and was successful. And I SMILED FOR A HALF HOUR BECAUSE OF IT!

In AA, they tell us...IF YOU CAN'T BELIEVE, JUST BELIEVE THAT WE BELIEVE.

I am, David Merchant: 603-632-9823

Please don't call if you hate me. I'm just like you, but the lights got turned on for me, a while ago.

God bless YOU!

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This prior posting was removed from dailypaul.com by the atheist xntryk1. Why would he do that?

Thank you for your posting Greta. It totally misses the point however because you are not looking for evidence. Rather you are presupposing that your mind is the arbiter of truth in determining what is or is not evidence. Your mind is fallen, has not been redeemed, and therefore we can expect nothing more than your atheistic viewpoint similar to the Tempter's "Hath God said?" (ie. "think for yourself Eve; follow your own thoughts and impulses as though God does not exist...use your own mind as though it was absolute and could determine truth). Presuming an independent claim to knowledge, you are the fool Eve was. Finite, partial knowledge doesn't know the extent of what it doesn't know. Unless you have exhaustive knowledge of all things, Greta, then you have no clue about what you know for in the context of having exhaustive knowledge, the bits of flotsam and jetsam you call "knowledge" would be quickly ditched. As Immanuel Kant said, "We never know the ding on sich" ie. the thing in itself, but only our perception of objects. All you have are perceptions that can never determine infallibly what is their connection to the objective world outside of your brain. How are your thoughts and perceptions like the outside world? How can your thoughts ever determine objectively what is evidence? Subjectively, you are left only with the rantings of your own mind as the determiner of what is evidence, and we all become subject to your ridiculous judgments of reality if we presume that you should occupy such a place. To properly occupy such a place of taking in all the evidence and making pronouncements of what is or is not reality and whether God exists or does not exist, you would need to have all knowledge and occupy all reality so as to determine what can and cannot be, just like Eve did. Eve presumed that the creature could determine whether God was true or a liar or whether the whole question was even relevant. Just like Eve, you will never be able to get outside of your mind to objectively know all reality and make such determinations. Just like Eve, your mind, as any kind of adequate authority is a myth. You accept as evidence what pleases your mind but you don't even know if your rationality has a place in a universe without God. Only the Sovereign God who has knowledge exhaustively and who created all things based on His knowledge has the "inside" on all things that you need in order to make any claim to knowledge. The fact is, your knowledge is only true and real to the extent it is what God knows. Since you believe in your knowledge, you must believe in God. Another proof of this is that the alternative world view of the chance, irrational void being your foundation, your rationality and knowledge makes no sense and you yourself have no meaning or purpose against the backdrop of the chance void. No one functions as though they are nothing more than an evolved, sophisticated piece of the environment with the chance void as their parents. All your comments use rationality, logic, meaning, purpose and also presuppose that fairness and dignity is expected from your opponents (ie. morality). None of these things make sense in an atheistic world view. You are therefore your own best evidence of the existence of God. Because you are created in the image of God, you give evidence of being his creature and not evidence of anything else. Yet, because you are his fallen creature in rebellion, you therefore refuse to bow to him as Lord. Therefore, unlike Eve who repented, you remain trapped in the vicious circle of your own mind.

"If you do not believe I am He, you will die in your sins....If you abide in My Word, then you are truly My disciple; then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free."
John 8:24b, 31.

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In glancing at the comments, I noted that one suggested you let it go. Very good advice. However, there is another reason to let it go. Faith, almost by definition, is an irrational act. If one could deduce or induce there is a transcendent being, then it wouldn't require faith; it would make sense. So one shouldn't be looking for evidence or arguments affirming god exists. Faith is inherently an irrational act.

By the same token, you are stuck with the fact that you cannot disprove the existence of god. Any evidence you might posit denies his/her/its existence assumes some kind of godly nature. God is not necessarily a benevolent creature.

I choose not to believe in the existence of god because I see no evidence of a transcendent being. Besides most of the gods imagined are a unworthy of belief, let alone worship. Nevertheless, transcendent beings lie outside the realm of proof or disproof. As was suggested above: Let it go.

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Following is a blog entry of mine. I have over 400 entries on it, with ONE comment by a person named Butt Surfer.

Mr. Surfer, apprised me that Elizabeth Bathory, the female Dracula, is a fave among the Black Metal community. It seems that a group called Cradle Of Filth has dedicated most of one of their CDs to the lovely lass.

I haven't picked it up yet...probably won't.

Does this mean I hate them? NOPE! I hate that they worship evil. Sure wouldn't want to spend any time around them, either.


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To show you...I'd have to kill you and I'm not going to do that.

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poisoned by the widow of one of his murder victims. Just showing any fax of Mo, is punishable by death.

Did you know that Mohammad said he was posessed by the Devil, when he produced, THE SATANIC VERSES? They're nowhere to be found in the Koran. I still believe that there is a death sentence out on Salman Rushdie, for his book by the same name.

Satanic gays can do a Last Supper with rubber fists, Big Bad Wolf masks, ball gags, et al...And I'm an homophobe if I tell you to cut the shit! No, I'm not a Catholic.

Jesus, was the most innocent man who ever lived. Atheists are OK with Muslims, and you hate us who are followers of Jesus. Do I hate you back? Some of you, yes. Nobody on this board, for sure, but the skunks who stole my children from me, 18 years ago, and tossed me into a wood chipper, I certainly fucking LOATHE!

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Often times on posting boards, I'm invited to kill myself, or some of you would love to kill me yourselves. Bring it on, it won't go well for you, I promise!

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but FAT Al , he will save the world, his eternal wisdom will enlighten us.

No Jesus, but OBAMAMA, the universal Spirit will give us Hope and Change.

I am a liberal no religion for me, but I believe if all the States grow HEMP there will be peace and prosperity for All.

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Knowing God intellectually or emotionally is a crazy thought.Anyways what does it matter? A far as Socialism not working,neither does Capitalism but us poor and middle class have again bailed the elite(sarcasm) out. Anyways,if humans are involved eventually there is failure.Sure we've put men on the moon,open heart surgery,developed complex systems.yet the problem that's plagued mankind since day one remains.We are destructive.

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Veganism, Kayakism, EnvironMENTALism, Pacifism, Recycling, Abortionism, et al..ARE NOT RELIGIONS?

They most certainly are, except they are represented by Yin...Everything Yang, is despised by you.

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From the linque;

Just to give perspective on this incredible murder by government, if all these bodies were laid head to toe, with the average height being 5', then they would circle the earth ten times. Also, this democide murdered 6 times more people than died in combat in all the foreign and internal wars of the century. Finally, given popular estimates of the dead in a major nuclear war, this total democide is as though such a war did occur, but with its dead spread over a century.

If some goofball murders an abortion doctor (Woman's Healthcare Worker,) Atheists want to boil all Christians in oil, and then eat us.

Truth doesn't set anybody free, it usually kills the poor sods.

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"Organically Groan,"(sic) does not do a thing for your health, but it does make you feel superior to the rest of us...B12 deficiency is a byproduct of vegetarianism, and it causes psychosis.

Second hand cigarette smoke, DOES NOT KILL!
Abortion is the leading indicator of breast cancer...It certainly is. Don't you fucking dare ask me for a SOURCE! Look it up your own lazy self.

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ALL HEALING IS FAITH HEALING! Please read, Bernie Seigal's, Love, Medicine and Miracles.

If you cut your finger, you clean the wound, dress it and EXPECT it to heal.

Many doctors say...We set the fracture and put a cast on it, GOD does the rest.

Jung called it...The Collective Unconscious.

The first great Communist turned human being was Whittaker Chambers. Look up quotes by him.
He is one of the most despised, demonized men in history.

Here's a quote from, WITNESS...Man without Mysticism is a monster.

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Piloted by Muslims for several hundred years, and in modern days, Communists...

The tanks have been flattening Believers for a real long time...Ever hear of the Tiananmen Square Massacre? Not as bad as poor Matthew Sheppard, for sure...LOL!

What do you guys do, when this stuff is shown on the tube? I forgot, you've KILLED YOUR TVs.

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Do you and I actually reside on the same planet? You have to intentionally HIDE FROM THIS EVIL!

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One of the most beautiful songs ever written, is...INTO THE MYSTIC. I defy you to find him doing it on Youtube.

Here is a pretty decent version of it, but I'd like to ask Van, WTF? Are you nuts? And it would be a rhetorical question. Because I know he is.

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I know how much ugliness there is in the world. I didn't cause it. I try to see beauty, every day, and share it.

I give what I can to poor people, who aren't trying to kill me.

Once, shortly after my divorce(death,) I was in the ER with what I thought was a gall bladder attack. A street drunk came into the waiting room to beg. I gave him my last 5 dollars. NOTHING HURTS AS BAD AS NEEDING A DRINK, IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE. I didn't lecture the man. All he said was thank you. That's all he had to say.

There is no such thing as Social Injustice. There would be, if we all lived in herds and packs, and swarms and schools, but we don't.

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I'VE BEEN BEGGING FOR 18 YEARS, TO HAVE SOMEBODY TO LOOK AT MY LIFE AND DEATH AGAIN!

DADS SUCK!...STFU, DAVID!

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For sure none of us will ever know for sure until we are dead.

In the meantime it is all just pointless speculation.

Really whether He exists or not is moot. What is the point in acknowledging His existence? It's just a waste of time and a distraction.

If you require the existence of a God in order to have something to support your moral beliefs, then I say that you have a problem with your morals.

I believe in people. I believe in intelligence and reason. I believe that we are capable of much as a species, but only if we drop this whole "God" thing and focus on sorting out our problems right here in this phase of existence.

There is plenty of beauty, glory and mystery right here in this reality. How can this not be enough to satisfy you?

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My best friends in the world, 2 aging Hippies Lora and Ray have been sick.

I just got this e-mail from Ray. Lora has just suffered a heart attack. Ray is finally on the mend after some withering cancer in his throat, salivary glands and jaw.

I wrote back and told him to PRAY! I'm asking you too, to at least FAKE IT, and cast your voice into the void.

Lora marched with MLK. MLK was a Christian and HE WAS COLOR BLIND, AND I THINK HE IS ONE OF THE GREATEST MEN WHO EVER LIVED! How do you like them apples, Greta?

Have Lora and I had some go rounds about G*d? You friggen betcha! When I've been a guest of theirs in Florida, I smile a lot and nod, and swallow every bit of pride I have. I don't have to be right!

David:

Lora was in the hosp for 4 days this week with TIA's mini strokes and I brought her home about 4 Pm Friday. .I rushed Lora to the hosp this AM with chest pains...it was a heart attack and I'm worried. When we got
there her Toponin T enzyme levels were undetectable. At 6 hours they were 1.8 and at 11 hours they were 1.2. The trend down is good, but I can't find out how bad 1.8 at 6 hours is and won't know what it means until sometime on Sunday.

Ray

And, answer me this...Arguably, ACLUTV(Pubic) is about as far left as you could possibly go and remain on the board. Why do they put up religious shit, every time they are pimping for money...HMMMMMMM?

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Please stop worrying about the scum sucking pieces of shit in Gitmo, and help me try to save, one of about 5 people on this ball of dung, WHOM I LOVE, TO THE DEPTH OF MY SOUL!

Good night and God bless you.

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There is a girl named Josh Jour, on Delphi Forums, who got me banned for life, twice. You see, I came back as a dreaded Troll.

Why did Li'l Joshie hate me so bad? I spoke to the fact, that sex with children was encouraged under Islam and that the most evil woman who ever lived...Saint Maggot Sanger, had been molested as a child.

I thought my ex wife despised me! WHOA!

Atheists and most Christians FEEL that we are to submit to Evil.

Matthew is the first chapter in the New Testament. I've never heard a minister read this part of the chapter. Atheists just know, the turn the other cheek crap, and not for US to judge THEM.

In 11, Jesus is actually telling his disciples to wipe their feet off and leave dust IN THE HOUSE of those who reject His message. LOFL!

From Matthew 10:

11“Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

(And my favorite part of 10)

34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,a daughter against her mother,a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’e

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I did not see any discussion about Jesus. He is the evidence. The Bible is where we principly learn about him. That is evidence as well. Examining what the Bilble says about Jesus is also evidence that becomes compelling once the reliability of the Bible itself becomes accepted. And none of this is a leap of faith, but the logical and reasoned conclusion to the evidence itself.

Perhaps other believers with more background then the ones you have spoken with so far, have already made the offer to examine the evidence for faith together. If not I would be pleased to offer whatever help I could.

Sadly, not all (perhaps not many) believers are into the evidence for their faith. For me evidence for faith in Jesus (and God) is very important.

Evidence for faith in God is not something that can be addressed in a single session as you likely have many questions. Each must be addresses to your satisfaction and this will take some time. I'd be willing to help answer your questions or to direct you to someone who can... I'm thinking you might be more comfortable getting a womens perspective.. your choice?

If this is agreeable I'll provide my contact info as you like. I'm new to this forum, so I presume this can be done somehow.

For the remainder of this post, allow me to comment on some of your observations of evidence or arguments for faith that you've heard.

I also observe that Religion is often "like a paper castle that's formidably protected -- with moats and walls, trap doors and vats of boiling oil, attack dogs and armed guards patrolling around the clock."
Any organiziation has this tendency and perhaps even a need to protect itself. This can really obscure finding the truth.

It is for this reason that religion and religious practices, need to be separated from a persuit of God himself.

It is also common to speak philisophically when talking about God or examining what appears to be modern miracles as evidence for God. They may or may not be...

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I had a friend named Steve, who let me stay in his house, as my new house trailer was being set up. Steve professed to be a Christian.

I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE EVER KNOWN A MORE HATEFUL, EVIL SOB, IN MY LIFE!

Steve corrected even my breathing...Said that my mouth looked like a *ussy, because of my facial hair.

He was so evil, that WATER actually seemed to burn his skin. I shit you not!

I cannot tell you how difficult it was to keep my fist out of his ugly mouth, but I did.

Steve loathed gospel music, but was big into Porn on the web.

Here's a litmus test for you...Try to listen to this song. If it feels like red hot ice picks in your ears, you're pretty much phucked!

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Everything in the material universe is the result of a combination of matter and energy. Anything that is made from a combination of materials will eventually fall apart. We know the universe is not eternal; it is made entirely of combinations.

Before the universe begins and after it ends, what exists? And by universe, I mean the entire universe, including spacetime itself. Empty space still exists within a manifest universe, just a very cold, lonely and boring one.

If everything disappears, what's left? One possibility is non-existence: absolutely nothing. But absolutely nothing would be absolutely static. How could the material world arise from nothingness of that magnitude? What would be able to disturb non-existence into existence? Think about it deeply, and the idea is absurd. That leaves only one possibility: an immaterial existence that engenders the manifestation of the material world.

What can we posit about such an immaterial existence? It must be able to exist outside of time and space, and it must not be subject to the creative and destructive effects of combination. Therefore it must be absolutely singular, unified and unchangeable. Beyond space, it would be infinite; beyond time, eternal. The manifestation or non-manifestation of the universe would be irrelevant; it would simply continue to be under any and all conditions.

What hard evidence has been found that this is the case?

The best evidence is the testimony of enlightened beings, people who through phenomenal self-control have transcended the ordinary human mind and enabled themselves to comprehend God directly. The character of these men and women far exceeds that of any worldly person I can think of, no matter how brilliant, in any field. They are able to solve the question of God through direct personal experimentation and arrive at a conclusion by their own experience. They are beyond lying, greed, lust or ambition; they are able to conduct their lives without desires, attachments or suffering. Their minds are firmly merged in God.

Not only that, but they actively encourage all humanity, regardless of religion or caste, to undertake the same experiments and experience it for themselves. What is proposed is not faith, although it will certainly help on the long road of spiritual attainment; what is needed is courage, character and resolve. Religion, real religion, is not for the weak and fearful. Only the boldest ever say, "Who cares what happens to me? I want to know for certain whether there is anything eternal and immortal in existence." The findings of these great explorers can't be ignored, because they are the most unimpeachable witnesses humankind has been able to produce.

For more information on the lives and teachings of the great titans of spirituality, I refer you to Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda and Ramana Maharshi, all of whom lived with the last 200 years, and who produced the simplest, most cogent and rational explanations of God that have ever been recorded.

It's easy to scoff that people have only a gut feeling to rely on to justify their belief, but isn't un-belief the same? Aren't you simply relying on your own gut feeling?

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Starting with Halloween. Goes back to the Druids. Recently, It's been discovered that there was human sacrifice at Stonehenge. ZZZZZZZzzz.

The Christmas Tree is Pagan, Yule Log, Easter, etc.

Halloween is great good fun for all the kiddies in pubic school. All other Holy Days, need not apply if hey are supposed to be Christian.

After the Apostle Paul died, the early church got very lazy and adopted Paganism, instead of trying to convert, them. It was easier.

Christmas Trees, make atheists go cataplectic. Just as Pagan as Halloween.

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SANTA ANA – The removal of a Christmas tree from the Orange County Superior courthouse Monday has prompted a petition among court employees to have the tree – connected to a gift drive for poor children – put back.

The six-foot artificial tree, which was adorned with tags seeking toy donations to 'Operation Santa Claus,' was removed Monday after a member of the public complained about the tree being in the courthouse, court spokeswoman Gwen Vieau said.

If they want the trees to be accepted, better to put skeletons, gravestones, witches, black cats, vampires, ghouls, et al, on them, with orange and black lights. Cool!

The Femarxigirls have hijacked St. Valentine's Day...Always a pig push to show...The Vagina Monologues...real man hating shit.

Girls Rule...Boys Drool!

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How do you get you linques up like that? It's cooler than, Linqued text,

Best,

4ap

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I rate all your posts with a 5.

One of the definitions of Evil, goes like this...In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the evil person will defend the lie to her death. El Gore is a bleeping Snake Oil Salesman. No worries, though...The PC Press, will fall on their swords for his horse shit.

Everybody is a frikking Czar, or Bolshevik...

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Now that some enterprising and possibly conscience-stricken soul has served up the emails and other data of the Climate Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, revealing the deliberate efforts to hide the corrupted research that justifies the “global warming” fraud, all the various journalists and alleged climate scientists who have been a party to it are trying desperately to cover up or minimize the scandal.

Others like the U.S. “Climate Czar” Carol Browner have announced their faith in the disputed data, but Browner, who served as EPA Director in the Clinton administration has never shown any interest in honest science and is not likely to have left a paper trail in her present position. No word yet from Obama’s loony “Science Czar”, John Holdren.

As for me, I walk by faith, not by sight, or hysterical screeching...You lunatics are scaring the children half to death, worrying about the pooer li'l animals turning into crispy critters. Shame on you. (Impossible!)

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You can get full medical coverage at the lowest price from http://bit.ly/7jAGD3

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An ordained Southern Baptist mInister interviewed an atheist, and there was only the greatest respect between the two. Made me go out and buy Dawkins' books. I saw no attempts by either to coerce or convert the other. It was a shining example of the only way forward.

Yes, religion seems dumb to some of you. But rationality would only exist in purely sustaining cultures. Nope, wrong. Even hunter-gatherer tribes have religion. It existed long before it solidified into powerful forces that harmed countless people, and let me clue you: the religion was the excuse, not the cause. The people in power who cause harm found a convenient excuse, but had the urge aside from the religion. Anyone who ever read Jesus's words would know this.

Why do we humans write poetry? Paint? If I need to cover my windows for privacy, why do I do it in an attractive way? Why is your couch the color it is? All you need is something to sit on, after all. We humans evolved as mammals alongside all the other mammals, but why do we alone like keeping a steady beat and moving to it, with melodic sounds over the rhythm? Mostly what we do is irrational. Our rational needs are food and shelter and clothing, then family and community. Most of what we'll do today, however, will irrationally go beyond those needs. Did you buy a car you liked in a color you liked, or was the decision purely rational? When you drive it today, will you put a CD in, listen to it with enjoyment? Obviously, there is much we do that has nothing to do with our rational needs, but comes from other urges that make no sense whatsoever. If you can call any part of my belief system stupid, maybe I can call your choice of music stupid? Not different from mine, but actually stupid? Should you listen to me and to what I think is smart? Why would you even CARE?

Why does anyone care? We all are drawn in different ways to different things. It seems stupid to some to sit silently and do nothing, but to others, that is meditation. To twist into an odd pose, one you'd never do normally in the course of a day, seems ridiculous until you call it Yoga. To fuss over the way words are written down, to attempt to make them beautiful beyond the mere information that needs conveyed, can sound absurd unless you call it poetry. But who cares if anyone else "wastes" their time these ways? I observe that successful classical musicians have spent most of their time alone, repeating minute details of music until perfected, and this would be hard to explain to aliens who just landed. And yet people continue doing it, beyond any worldly success that would seem to justify it. Should someone write an article telling them to stop, that they're stupid for doing this? Why would any mammal do it to begin with?

We're partly rational, partly not at all rational. We seem to do okay when we live and let live. Anyone who thinks that religion needs done away with because of its lack of rationality has a big list to work on. I'd start with pro sports, the arts, clothing, furniture. We should all wear uniforms (wait, men often do already), and our homes should look like the spaceship on Star Trek. We obviously do not need music or poetry or painting. Sculpture. Dance. Films. That stuff is all fluff, irrational and fake. Apparently, though, we greatly need the attitude that we decide that for each other better than for ourselves. Apparently, here's how you rationally know you're superior: as soon as you hear or notice some difference, you know you're better, and better start fixing that person ASAP.

If rationality ruled, not one of these articles would have been written. Doesn't matter the content, once you start from "it's obvious I need to fix you", you're pointing straight towards nuts, or controlling, or both.

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Zeitgeist Part 1 of 14 - new version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JurrJxfi5OI

Zeitgeist Part 2 of 14 - new version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oub69ZHtA5Y

Zeitgeist, The Movie (free dvd download)

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