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Are the "New Atheists" As Bad as Christian Fundamentalists?

The most aggressive members of the "New Atheism" movement have quite a bit in common with religious extremists like Pat Robertson and Ted Haggard.
November 3, 2009  |  
 
 
 
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 My problem with the so-called New Atheist movement is that several of the most successful of the New Atheist leaders -- as judged by book sales and speaking fees -- say Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins -- remind me of the worst of my own fundamentalist evangelical background. They are as close minded as they seem to be almost pathologically certain of their beliefs. 

I know a deranged faith-based personality cult when I see one, given that my late father Francis Schaeffer was a fundamentalist guru to millions in the 1970s and 80s and a leading founder of the Religious Right, something Max Blumenthal discusses in his important book Republican Gomorrah and that I go into (in depth) in my book Patience With God--Faith For People Who Don't Like Religion Or Atheism. (In that book I explain what is wrong with evangelicalism -- besides paranoia and hate! -- and why I got out.)

The New Atheist movement is being led by several egomaniac intolerant fundamentalists. It’s relevant to ask about who they are, not just what they say or write, because the New Atheism isn’t just about non-belief in God. The leaders of this movement make loud, repeated, and bold claims about atheism being better and more moral, more ethical, and a vastly improved alternative to religion. They also name names when blasting religious leaders. 

If we are to dismiss Christianity and other religions partly because of the likes of Oral Roberts, Ted Haggard, and their shenanigans (not to mention child-molesting Roman Catholic priests, Islamic suicide bombers et al) it's just as legitimate to ask about the characters of the people pointing out religious people’s moral faults ad naming names.

I admire many people who are atheists from David Hume to Daniel Denett. I often agree with their critique of religion. And Lord knows after the near take over of America by the Religious Right and following religion's attempt to murder us 9/11-style religion deserves a good kicking! But Dawkins and Hitchens are to atheism what Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell have been to religion: men who discredit whatever they're selling by their tawdry proselytizing and commercial opportunism combined with absurdly big egos and a deadly certainty that they and only they are right. With friends like these atheists need no enemies

But first some good news: the New Atheists also have several gems speaking for the movement. One is Daniel Dennett

Daniel Dennett

In the first page of Breaking the Spell—Religion As A Natural Phenomenon, Dennett writes, “I may have missed my target.” Dennett strikes me as somebody actually looking for answers. He is an atheist, but no fundamentalist. One reason I find Dennett so appealing is his decency. His humility, wit, and empathy speak volumes to me and lends a solid gravity to his wisdom. It certainly proves you don’t need to believe in God to be a moral person let alone to come across as just the sort of person anyone would like to have for a friend.

Dennett is a philosopher whose science research is related to evolutionary biology. He is also director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at Tufts University. Dennett deserves better friends than his fellow contributors to the emerging New Atheist canon. Maybe he knows this, because he puts a little distance between Dawkins and himself. In Breaking the Spell Dennett levels a subtle rebuke at Dawkins, even though he doesn’t name him: “Biologists are often accused of gene-centrism—thinking that everything in biology is explained by the action of genes. And some biologists do indeed go overboard in their infatuation with genes. They should be reminded that Mother Nature is not a gene centrist!”

Dennett also wrote a review of Dawkins’s The God Delusion for Free Inquiry, saying that he and Dawkins agree about many ideas, “but on one central issue we are not (yet) of one mind: Dawkins is quite sure that the world would be a better place if religion were hastened to extinction and I am still agnostic about that.”

We’ve never met but I’ve watched Dennett debate, have read him, and have heard him interviewed. He seems fair and knowledgeable about religion, acknowledging that all religions have a toxic component and yet that they also have a good side. Dennett has even proposed that a course on religions should be taught — worldwide — as a compulsory part of education both private and public, secular and religious. He wants this done because, as he correctly says, “All toxic parts of religion depend on the enforced ignorance of the young.”

Dennett also looks forward to the day that the Vatican becomes “a museum of Roman Catholic religion” and “Mecca becomes Disney’s Magic Kingdom of Allah.” He said that in a debate (held at Tufts University in 2008) with the right-wing author Dinesh D’Souza. It’s also a somewhat tongue-in-cheek point Dennett makes in his book.

The essential idea put forward in Breaking the Spell is that humans are like ants whose brains have been infected by a parasite. We’re like an ant who climbs again and again to the top of a stalk of grass, driven to do that by a parasite lodged in its brain.

Dennett asks, “Does anything like this ever happen with human beings? Yes indeed. We often find human beings setting aside their personal interests, their health, their chances to have children, and devoting their entire lives to furthering the interests of an idea that has lodged in their brains.”

Dennett admits that “The comparison of the Word of God to lancet fluke [parasite] is unsettling.” And he asks, “How are ideas . . . spread from mind to mind, surviving translation between different languages, hitchhiking on songs and icons and . . . rituals, coming together in unlikely combinations in particular people’s heads, where they give rise to yet further new ‘creations’ bearing family resemblances to the ideas that inspired them?”

Dennett believes that the answer is that religions evolved as a response to our fears and as an explanation to ourselves of what we don’t understand. These explanations became more and more sophisticated until they emerged as religions, a few of which have survived and become established. “Some of the features of our minds are endowments we share with much simpler creatures, and others are specific to our lineage. . . . These features sometimes overshoot, sometimes have curious byproducts . . . [and] some of these patterns look rather like religions.”

Nevertheless, Dennett believes that religion can be a wonderful thing for many people. Unlike the other New Atheists, Dennett realizes that the consequences of his work attempting to debunk religion might damage individuals and societies. As he puts it, breaking the spell that religion casts over people could be something like let¬ting your cell phone ring at a concert. “I don’t want to be that person,” he writes. He continues, “The problem is there are good spells and there are bad spells . . . and it may be the best way to break these bad spells is to introduce the spellbound to a good spell.”

Dennett recognizes the perils of pure secularism in a way that the other leading New Atheists writers don’t, or rather won’t. He also acknowledges the limits of his (and all) knowledge and asks, “Who is right? I don’t know. Neither do the billions of people with their passionate religious convictions. Neither do those atheists who are sure the world would be a much better place if all religion went extinct.”

Dennett is critical of the blind spot atheists discussing religion bring to their theories: “We don’t just walk up to religious phenomena and study them point-blank as if they were fossils . . . Researchers tend to either be respectful [and] deferential [or] hostile, invasive, and contemptuous.” Dennett is honest. “People who want to study religion,” he writes, “usually have an ax to grind. . . . [T]his tends to infect their methods with bias.”

Why did he write his book? Dennett answers, “I, for one, fear that if we don’t subject religion to . . . scrutiny now, and work together for whatever revisions and reforms are called for, we will pass on the legacy of ever more toxic forms of religion to our descendants.” Post 9/11, post the impact of the Religious Right on American life and politics, who can argue with that?
 
Richard Dawkins

Go to Dawkins's website and change a word or two and it could be the site of a particularly egoistical internet-savvy swami posing in hagiographic photos while collecting birthday greetings and good wishes from his deluded (not terribly bright) followers.

One doesn’t have to buy Dawkins’s books because he’s found a way to offer his wisdom to passersby. Just hang around New Atheist gatherings and you may read Dawkins’s writings on T-shirts worn by his disciples or emblazoning their sweat shirts, tote bags, and bumper stickers.

Here are some samples taken from Dawkins’s official website of the means and methods for spreading the Dawkins’s gospel and/or for collecting his life’s work. What follows is just as I found it on the Dawkins site in the spring of 2009. And this sampling represents a mere fraction of what would, if downloaded, run to hundreds of pages of products, tips for atheist living, resources, further thoughts posted on bulletin boards, and so on.

NEW! The God Delusion T-Shirt Product 5/7 $20.00
sizes m, l, xl and 2xl are in backorder, and will be shipped as soon as they come back in stock (approx. 2 weeks).

The God Delusion T-Shirt with what is perhaps the book’s most famous quote: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
 
White text on slate grey t-shirt. 100% cotton, American Ap¬parel. Made in the U.S.A. These sizes may run a little smaller than some are accustomed to. Add to Cart:

If T-shirts aren’t what you fancy by way of proudly displaying “perhaps the book’s most famous quote,” there are many other fine products. For instance, you may purchase the “Scarlet A Lapel Pin” (I’m not making this up.) And if you don’t know what that is, you may “watch [as] Richard Dawkins explains his Scarlet A lapel pin during an interview, just click Here.”

According to the atheist product catalogue, the Scarlet A Pin is a “Red A with silver edging and back,” and it costs $5. The customer reviews published on Dawkins’s site are glowing. The pin gets Five Stars from just about everyone. Oliver gives the pin Five Stars! and writes, “Brilliant badge. Sub¬lime concept. Let’s get in their faces. Thank God for Dawkins!” Rich also gives the pin Five Stars! and says, “Excellent. Worn it for a couple of months now; four conversations followed I have to order two more.” Another satisfied customer writes, “I love it, but you should really consider offering a Scarlet A necklace.” The next reviewer gives it only four stars, but moving on, Yvonne gives the pin Five Stars! and says, “It looked awesome on my black bag.” Luke gives the pin Five Stars! too and notes, “Great product. I actually turned mine into a pendant by bending the pin and attaching a wire loop.” Then we get back into four star territory: “This is great, but I would much rather have it as a necklace.”

The comment that most interested me was the one from Rich: “Worn it for a couple of months now; four conversations followed.” That really brought back the memories.
 
When I was a young child growing up in a fundamentalist evangelical commune as the son of Calvinist American missionaries (Francis and Edith Schaeffer) and living in Switzerland (L'Abri Fellowship circa 1950s) and to my eternal mortification, Mom used to carry something called the Gospel Walnut. It was a hollowed-out actual walnut shell filled with ribbons of different colors sewn together into one thin, shoestring-like, yard-long band: black for sin, red for Jesus’s blood, then white for how clean your heart would be after it got washed of sin. You cranked it out with a little handle attached to the walnut shell, and the ribbon would seem to emerge from the nut magically. The point of doing this was to invite ques¬tions from strangers, which it did. This would lead to what Rich said the A Pin he wears leads to: conversations. In other words, both the Gospel Walnut and the Scarlet A Pin offer a chance to witness to potential converts.

If my experience as a child is any guide (regarding the just-kill¬me-now embarrassment I felt as Mom accosted strangers on trains and buses with her magic nut), we can expect that the mortified children of Dawkins’s atheist pin-wearing missionaries will someday be¬come zealous evangelicals, Muslims, or Druids—anything but atheists, that is. Who knows, the children raised by Dawkins’s groupies may well be the foundation of the next Great Awakening.

Anyway, Oliver was also onto something with his “Let’s get in their faces” comment. That too induced flashbacks. It reminded me vividly of how we evangelical/fundamentalists regarded those who weren’t “saved.” “They” were always they to us, and “we,” the born-agains, were as saved as they were “lost.”

So Dawkins, it turns out, is my mother, circa 1959!

Hi Mom!

Just in case the dedicated Dawkins follows watched only the edited version of The Enemies of Reason, now there is The Uncut Interviews, a “full length version” to add to your “cart” before “pro¬ceeding to checkout.” (All major credit cards are accepted.)

The Enemies of Reason: The Uncut Interviews $40.00 $33.00 Save: 18% off Buy together and save $7.00!

During the filming of Channel 4’s The Enemies of Reason, Richard Dawkins conducted several extended interviews which were cut down for the program’s final broadcast. . . . Explore the issues in more depth . . . . There are two ways of looking at the world through faith and superstition or through the rigors of logic, observation and evidence in other words, through reason. Reason and a respect for evidence are precious commodities, the source of human progress and our safeguard against fundamentalists and those who profit from obscuring the truth. Yet, today, society ap¬pears to be retreating from reason. . . . Richard Dawkins confronts what he sees as an epidemic of irrational, superstitious thinking. He explains the dangers the pick and mix of knowledge and non¬sense poses in the internet age, and passionately re-states the case for reason and science.
Run Time: 96 minutes—1 DVD

Dawkins will “safeguard [us] against fundamentalists and those who profit from obscuring the truth” by selling us the uncut version. And when the Dear Leader is not picking the “most famous” of his quotes for his T-shirts, or designing atheist conversation-starting witnessing jewelry, Dawkins also writes books that contain grand zingers: “Atheism is the only logical belief once one accepts evolution.” And “Religion is incompatible with science.”

But what Dawkins says he’s most proud of is the part of his web-site called “Convert’s Corner” where, as he told Bill Maher in an in-terview on Maher’s TV show in 2008, “You can go and read all the testimonies of people who have been converted!” Then he said, “When I’m on my deathbed I’ll have a tape recorder switched on because people like me are victims of malicious stories after they’re dead of people saying they had a deathbed conversion when they didn’t.” Maher looked a bit puzzled, so Dawkins explained that he suspects creationists may already be plotting to do this to him and pointed out that “they now claim Darwin had a deathbed conversion.”

When Maher asked Dawkins about The God Delusion, Dawkins said little about the book’s content but exclaimed, “It’s sold a million and a half copies!” Then Maher, like an enthusiastic puppy scampering around a big dog, yelped, “And now it’s in paperback, it will be even more available!” Maher paused to take a breath then added, “I’m your biggest fan!” Then Dawkins, slipping into his rock star mode, explained that he has so many fans because “I think people are getting a bit fed up with other people thrusting their imaginary friends down their throats.”
 
Prompted by Maher, Dawkins also explained one of his other ideas. “There is a scale of One to Seven of atheism,” said Dawkins, “but I’m only a Six on my scale.” Dawkins laid out the details of the Atheism Sincerity Scale. “A One is a complete believer in God and a Seven is a total disbeliever.”

Something was bothering Maher, and he asked, “Why are you only a Six? Why aren’t you a Seven?”

Dawkins didn’t miss a beat; “As a scientist I can’t definitely commit to anything, including that there are no fairies!” Big laugh and cheers from both Maher and his audience. Dawkins added, “I can’t say I know there are no pink unicorns either, so maybe I’m a Six Point Nine is reasonable!”

Louder cheers from the audience, and I think I actually heard Maher squeal.

Apart from the sales figures (and what I’ll always think of as the Atheist One-to-Seven Dawkins/Tap moment), then, what is The God Delusion about? For one thing, it seems to mainly be about Dawkins’s website. I’ve never read a book in which the author works his website addresses into the actual text—not to mention the front and back matter—half a dozen times. But according to Dawkins his book really isn’t a book, so perhaps literary customs don’t apply. As he puts it, The God Delusion is a “consciousness-raising” tool. “Atheists” he writes, “as well as theists unconsciously observe society’s convention that we must be especially polite and respectful to faith.” He wants to change all that.

In the preface to the paperback edition, Dawkins responds to the criticism that he is just as much of a proselytizing fundamentalist as those he criticizes. Dawkins answers, “No, please, it is all too easy to mistake passion that can change its mind for fundamentalism, which never will . . . it is impossible to overstress the difference between such a passionate commitment to biblical fundamentals and the true scientist’s equally passionate commitment to evidence.” As a scientist Dawkins claims that by definition his passion can’t be like other, lesser people’s passions, because as a scientist he is above such things. Maybe the same can be said for his entrepreneurial passion, which might, in ordinary people, be mistaken for televangelist-style hucksterism but, because he is a scientist, is no doubt just research carried on by other means.

Even Dawkins’s compassion seems strangely self-serving. Take the story Dawkins includes in his book about an atheist doctor who wrote to him describing the moving atheist ceremony at his young atheist son’s funeral. Dawkins uses the story to point out that atheists can be comforted by their beliefs at the big moments—death, for instance— just as religious people are comforted by religion. However, Dawkins also works in the address of his website, by just happening to mention that the grateful bereaved doctor asked the mourners at his son’s funeral to make donations to Dawkins’s foundation’s website—once again listed in the context of the father’s letter.

On the first page of the preface to The God Delusion, Dawkins asks us to imagine a world without religion and tells us that without religion, the World Trade Center would be standing, John Lennon would be alive, there would’ve been no Crusades and no witch hunts, no partition of India, no Palestinian/Israeli conflict. He then tells us that what he objects to most about religion is the way it captures children.

“I want everybody to flinch,” Dawkins writes, “whenever we hear a phrase such as ‘Catholic child’ or ‘Muslim child.’ Speak of a child of Catholic parents if you like; but if you hear anybody speak of a ‘Catholic child,’ stop them and politely point out that children are too young to know where they stand on such issues, just as they are too young to know where they stand on economics and politics.” Given that a few pages earlier in the book Dawkins tells us the story of the atheist doctor and his devoutly atheist child, I wonder whether Dawkins wrote to that father asking him if he’d given his son the chance to make up his mind about religion by regularly taking him to attend church services. For that matter does Dawkins object to babies being given passports before they get to choose their country?

Just in case not all past or present scientists have gotten Dawkins’s consciousness-raising memo re their God delusions, Dawkins notes that “Great scientists of our time who sound religious usually turn out not to be so when you examine their beliefs more deeply.” He makes a particular point of saying that Einstein was horribly misunderstood when it comes to the impression that he had any sort of religious sensibility.

Dawkins writes, “Let me sum up [Einstein’s] religion in [a] quotation from Einstein himself: ‘To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and this beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious.’” Dawkins then says of the Einstein quote, “In this sense I too am religious, with the reservation that ‘cannot grasp’ does not have to mean ‘forever ungraspable.’” Dawkins adds, “My title, The God Delusion, does not refer to the God of Einstein and the other enlightened scientists. . . . That is why I needed to get Einsteinian religion out of the way to begin with: it has a proven capacity to confuse.”

It takes a lot of hard work by Dawkins to make sure we’re never confused and to prove that the big-name scientists have all been atheists, or at least not believers of the kind he doesn’t approve of. “Newton did indeed claim to be religious. So did almost everybody until significantly I think the nineteenth-century . . . great scientists who professed religion become harder to find the 20th-century. . . . I suspect that most of the more recent ones are religious only in the Einsteinian sense which, I argued . . . is a misuse of the word.” Dawkins notes that today he knows of only three scientists in Britain who claim to be religious. And as for those scientists in the past who claimed to be religious, Dawkins says that because everyone had to say nice things about religion in those days, they probably weren’t religious anyway, just pretending to be.

Cleaning up of the historical record is an obsession with Dawkins. Not only the present and future must go his way, but the past too. He finds himself compelled to make sure that we know that “The deist God of Voltaire and Thomas Paine . . . [is not] the Old Testament psychotic delinquent . . . the deist God of the 18th¬century Enlightenment is an altogether grander being: worthy of his cosmic creation.” Dawkins says that (1) Voltaire and Thomas Paine and Einstein would actually be on his side whatever they said, if they had only had the foresight and moral courage to be a little clearer, and that (2), the Fathers of the Enlightenment, who may have be¬lieved in God, believed in a God that somehow would also be on Dawkins’s side and that their God is not to be confused with the God Dawkins doesn’t like.
 
It turns out that the deism of the founders of the American republic was also actually mostly atheistic, if properly understood. Dawkins asks how these enlightened men founded a country that became so religious? “Precisely because America is largely secular, religion has become free enterprise . . . what works for soap flakes works for God, and the result is something approaching religious mania amongst today’s less educated classes . . . the Founding Fathers would have been horrified.”
 
What’s to be done about America’s “less educated classes” who love soap flakes and religion? One answer is to organize speaking tours featuring Dawkins. In his “An Atheist’s Call to Arms,” a talk he gave in California in 2002, Dawkins opened his show with a blast of music from Aida and volunteered, by way of explanation, that he’d “chosen this triumphant music for my funeral.” He will feel triumphant he said . . . then corrected himself quickly since, well, he won’t be feeling anything at his funeral, but, you know, if he could feel, he’d be feeling so good, “at being given the opportunity to understand something about why I was here before I was here.”
 
The audience seemed somewhat bemused, so Dawkins asked, “Can you understand my quaint English accent?” Big laugh from the audience anxious to prove that although they might not quite get what Dawkins meant by playing and then “explaining” his funerary music as the opening to his remarks, nevertheless, they weren’t members of the less educated classes. So, oh “Yes! Yes!” they called out amid warm laughter, we can understand English accents! They’re like soooo cool!
 
But, as in so many operatic plots, after the laughter must come the tears! Once the opera selection had played, Dawkins turned to the business at hand and sternly waded into the main point of his talk. “In this country you can’t be too careful,” Dawkins said; “it’s fair to say that American biologists are in a state of war! The war is so worrying that I have to say something about it.”

In The God Delusion, Dawkins paints a similarly sinister picture of the ongoing conspiracy against atheists in America, citing as proof (though he laments that the reporter who heard the president say this didn’t use a tape recorder) a story about President George Bush Sr. saying, “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.” (My family got to know President and Barbara Bush quite well and this story seems very unlikely, given Bush’s rather liberal religious views.)

Dawkins claims that America is in the grip of oppressive religion, to the extent that even the police organize purges against atheists. He explains how the police persecuted an atheist street protester, or so Dawkins has heard. As he points out in his book, “Anecdotes of . . . prejudice [in America] against atheists abound.” Dawkins relates one such anecdote about a cop who was ready to beat up some¬one who organized a peaceful demonstration to warn people about a fraudulent faith healer. Dawkins supplies us with the cop’s dialogue: “‘To hell with you, Buddy. No policeman wants to protect a goddamned atheist. I hope somebody bloodies you up good.’”

When not regaling us with anti-atheist cop dialogue, Dawkins explains, as if to not very bright infants, that

Constructing models is something the human brain is very good at. When we are asleep it is called dreaming; when we are awake we call it imagination or, when it is exceptionally vivid, hallucina¬tion. As Chapter Ten will show, children who have “imaginary friends” sometimes see them clearly, exactly as if they were real. If we are gullible, we don’t recognize hallucination . . . for what it is and we claim to have seen or heard a ghost; or an angel; or God or especially if we happen to be young, female and Catholic the Virgin Mary.

Oh those young female Catholics!

A few chapters into The God Delusion Dawkins gets to his main, and only, point: that the Darwinian biological theory of evolution should be applied to explain the entire universe. Dawkins starts his argument by saying, “A deep understanding of Darwinianism teaches us to be wary of the easy assumption that design is the only alternative to chance.” Dawkins then grasps at and pushes his own easy assumptions. But first he tells us how and why he will be making his argument: “Feminism shows us the power of consciousness raising, and I want to borrow the technique for natural selection.”

Dawkins borrows from the science of biological natural selection too and adapts Darwin’s theory of the evolution of life forms into the speculative field of the creation of everything—in other words, cosmology. Dawkins tells us that his solution to understanding how we all got here is what he calls “the Goldilocks zone,” as with the three bears and the porridge: The conditions for life had to be “just right.”
 
To find the Goldilocks zone is to discover that with the billions, actually trillions, of planets and perhaps innumerable “other universes” chances are that somewhere conditions would be “just right” for life to evolve. “We live on a planet that is friendly to our kind of life,” Dawkins writes; “there are billions of planets in the universe. . . . Now it is time to take the anthropic principle back to an earlier stage, from biology back to cosmology. . . . Some physicists are known to be religious . . . predictably, they seize upon the improbability of the physical constants . . . in their more or less narrow Goldilocks zones, and suggest that there must be a cosmic intelligence deliberately [doing] the tuning [to get the porridge ‘just right’]. I have already dismissed all such suggestions as raising bigger problems than they solve.”

“I have already dismissed. . . .” So that settles that, God is out. “Goldilocks zones” are in. Narrow-minded physicists, who, unlike Dawkins-the-biologist, deal with cosmology as part of their field of study, are out, or rather “already dismissed.”

Dawkins borrows Daniel Dennett’s phrase about what Dennett calls “the trickle down” theory of creation. Dawkins explains it as “the idea that it takes a big fancy smart thing to make a lesser thing.” This, said Dennett (and Dawkins quotes him), is why people believe in God as creator. But Dawkins goes the next step. Given the improbability, verging on impossibility, of the convergence of factors needed to make and sustain life, Dawkins has his own trickle down theory of a Big Fancy Smart Thing (the huge universe) to make lesser things, in other words: us.

What simplistic evangelical/fundamentalist theology tries to explain about creation, using God as the magical Big Thing, Dawkins does with brain-melting Big Numbers wrapped in meant-to-obfuscate and meant-to-intimidate science jargon. The problem is that neither religious fundamentalists nor Dawkins can explain any of what they claim they are explaining. Why? Because they are deep into the realm that Einstein was talking about: the realm “that our mind cannot grasp and this beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness.”

It turns out that Dawkins agrees with creationists who say that it’s nutty to credit pure chance as responsible for the design of some-thing as complex as life. But Dawkins says that whatever that something is it can’t be God, because “Then you would have to ask, who created the creator?”

Instead of God, Dawkins says he’s discovered “the anthropic principle.” So Dawkins has invented a theology with a scientific-sounding name. He even has doctrines, what he calls the “six fundamental constants of nature,” which for him fill in the “gaps.” Believers could say that God chose these six “laws” to encourage the evolution of life, but Dawkins won’t buy this, because God can’t be explained by Dawkins. Apparently the origin of life, however, can be explained by Dawkins. Dawkins says that the chance that a God exists who was able to figure Dawkins’s six rules out, and thus create the “just right” conditions for life, is as improbable as these rules being “created” by chance.

So after all that we’re back where we started! There is no reason to have a God because in our limitless universe (or universes) any-thing is statistically possible, except for there being a God. Why? Because Dawkins says so. Dawkins’s “anthropic principle” turns out to be Dawkins. Dawkins’s Big Idea seems closer The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy than to science.

Christopher Hitchens

It is  high time to attempt to explain the black sheep of the New Atheist family, the sexually obsessed, sibling-rival, left-wing radical turned right-wing Jihadist, and one of the least pleasant commentators on the current scene, Christopher Hitchens, author of the bestseller God Is Not Great. As best as I can figure him, Christopher Hitchens hates God for two reasons. First, because (judging on the basis of what he’s written and is quoted as having said) he likes sex and thinks religious people don’t. Second, because (judging on that same basis), he loathes his younger brother Peter Hitchens, also a well-known writer and a rival political commentator, with whom Christopher Hitchens has had a long and bitter feud over theology and politics. Peter Hitchens is a practicing and devout Anglican and a convert from the far, far loony Trotskyite British left that both he and Christopher Hitchens once embraced.
 
The fact is, I “get” Christopher Hitchens’s obsessions and his bizarre rationales for his aggressive atheism and anti-clericalism. I get his split with his religious brother Peter Hitchens too. I understand this chemistry all too well, because my leaving the evangelical/fundamentalist fold was—for a time—a break with my siblings too, one that infuriated my parents’ right-wing fundamentalist followers. I get the sex bit too. Sex is all over my novels too. I get Hitchens.

God Is Not Great  is an entertaining book. On the other hand it’s so skewed that, unlike Daniel Dennett’s serious and beautiful Breaking the Spell, Hitchens’s book adds little to the discussion of religion besides a kind of furiously demented anti-God entertainment, an odd mix of philosophizing combined with working out the author’s very particular psychological problems.

Hitchens describes how he converted to religion in order to marry. He joined the Greek Orthodox Church to please the family of his first wife. Then he divorced and abandoned that faith. But apparently Orthodoxy meant something more to him than mere convenience, because he writes about how wonderful it felt to shout out “Christ is risen!” at the Easter services, and how he was swept up in that experience. Hitchens also says, “There are days when I miss my old convictions as if they were an amputated limb.” Maybe he’s talking about those Easter services, or perhaps he’s talking about his old Trotskyite certainties.

As Hitchens summarizes his book’s argument, it comes to this: “The first [problem] is that religion and churches are manufactured. . . . The second is that ethics and morality are quite independent of faith. The third is that religion is—because it claims a special divine exemption for its practices and beliefs—not just amoral but immoral.”

What, according to Hitchens, are religion’s sins? Religion is “violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and . . . children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.”

Hitchens also got sick of expressing gratitude. “Why if god [he uses the lowercase ‘g’ to make a point] was the creator of all things, were we supposed to ‘praise’ him so incessantly for doing what came to him naturally? This seemed servile, apart from anything else.”

Why thank God when “Religion,” Hitchens writes, “spoke its last intelligible or noble or inspiring words a long time ago.” And what should Hitchens’s readers make of religious people who have been seduced by those “inspiring words” and then been mistaken for heroes? Consider Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran pastor hanged by the Nazis for his refusal to collude with them. Well, it turns out that Bonhoeffer’s religious heroism was actually a type of humanism, if properly understood.

A couple of pages after Bonhoeffer is dealt with, Hitchens pens a line that could serve as Hitchens’s epitaph: “The person who is certain, and claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.” In which case, what about Hitchens’s certainties, or, more to the point, what about Martin Luther King Jr.? He seemed to be in possession of a “divine warrant” or thought he was.

“Anybody,” writes Hitchens, “who uses the King legacy to justify the role of religion in public life must accept all the corollaries. . . . Even a glance at the whole record will show, first, that person for person, American free thinkers and agnostics and atheists come out best. The chance that someone’s secular [thinking] or freethinking . . . would cause him or her to denounce the whole in¬justice was extremely high. The chance that someone’s religious beliefs would cause him or her to take a stand against slavery and racism was statistically quite small.” So Martin Luther King Jr. really must have been some sort of secularist too, because it’s just so abnormal for anyone to be both religious and good.

When it comes to the sins of atheism, Hitchens turns to George Orwell for reassurance that somehow, no matter what it looks like, atheism is not true to itself when being bad but, rather is authentically atheist only when it’s good. The rest of the time it may appear that atheism fails from time to time, but that’s not so. “George Orwell . . . whose novels gave us [a] picture of what life in a totalitarian state might truly feel like, was in no doubt about [the fact that] ‘a totalitarian state is in its effect a theocracy.’”

In other words, to Hitchens, Stalin and Hitler and Mao and Pol Pot and their ilk were more to be understood as bad popes than as bad atheists. Evil atheists are not real atheists. Real atheists are by definition free thinkers who do wonderful things, much like Dawkins’s real scientists, who are, also by definition, all atheists, or wish they had been, or would have been if only they could have had a chat with Dawkins.

He may call himself an atheist but Christopher, like his brother Peter, is also a perennial convert. In Christopher Hitchens’s case, though, conversion was not to an ancient religion (except briefly to curry favor with his in-laws) but, early in life, to the political religious cult of extreme Marxism and then, late in mid life, to neoconservatism and jingoistic American exceptionalism. He made this last conversion to the far right after 9/11, when, after a career as a left-wing anti-imperialist, Christopher became a leading advocate and supporter of George W. Bush’s war in Iraq.

This angered his old friends on the left. So Christopher threw them a sop, his Johnny-come-lately jump onto the New Atheist bandwagon. His peace offering was God Is Not Great. He got to kill two birds with one stone: attempted reconciliation with the (often) atheist American left, and another way to stick it to his brother Peter.

Hitchens’s shot at lefty redemption didn’t work. With a “friend” like Hitchens, smart lefties feel they need no enemies. What to do with a man who in a May 2008 Slate article on Michelle Obama (in the wake of L’Affaire Reverend Wright), alleged that her view of America was the same as that of Stokely Carmichael and Louis Farrakhan?!

Here is how Alexander Cockburn, Hitchens’s former, pre–Iraq War colleague at the lefty Nation magazine (from which Hitchens dramatically departed in 2005 after he became a shill for Bush on Iraq), has described how people on the left feel about Hitchens:

What a truly disgusting sack of shit Hitchens is. A guy who called Sid Blumenthal one of his best friends and then tried to have him thrown into prison for perjury; a guy who waited till his friend Edward Said was on his death bed before attacking him in the Atlantic Monthly; a guy who knows perfectly well the role Israel plays in US policy but who does not scruple to flail Cindy Sheehan [a mother who turned peace activist after her soldier son was killed in Iraq] as a LaRouchie and anti-Semite because, maybe, she dared mention the word Israel. She lost a son? Hitchens (who [given Hitchens’s support for Bush’s war] should perhaps be careful on the topic of sending children off to die) says that’s of scant account, and no reason why we should take her seriously. Then he brays about the horrors let loose in Iraq if the troops come home, with no mention of how the invasion he worked for has already unleashed them.
 

Besides having converted to the war-solves-everything far, far jingoistic neoconservative right, Hitchens seems to have some weird hangups, including ones about Israel, maybe related to his basic God phobia and/or his late-in-life claim that he is a Jew via his mother’s side of the family—whatever. According to Cockburn, “In 1999 Edward Jay Epstein publicly recalled a dinner in the Royalton Hotel in New York where Epstein said Hitchens had doubted the Holocaust was quite what it’s cracked up to be.”

Here’s a guy that may or may not be a closet Holocaust denier but who publicly proclaimed that he’d refuse to care for his brother’s children, should his brother Peter die. As quoted in the Guardian in 2005, Christopher said, “The real difference between Peter and myself is the belief in the supernatural. I’m a materialist and he attributes his presence here to a divine plan. I can’t stand anyone who believes in God, who invokes the divinity or who is a person of faith.”

James Macintyre, who has known both Hitchens brothers for years, dissected their ugly relationship in the June, 11, 2007, issue of The Independent: “Christopher revealed that after he discovered his mother died in mysterious circumstances—apparently a suicide pact with a boyfriend in Athens—he found a note his mother had addressed only to ‘Christopher.’ He has since been quoted as saying, ‘If you were the mother of Christopher and Peter, who would be your secret favorite?’”

It’s hard to imagine a less appealing way of expressing sibling rivalry than citing one’s mother’s suicide note.

The Washington Post reviewer of Hitchens’s book pegged Hitchens’s ignorance about religion. In his May 6, 2008, review, Stephen Prothero (chair of Boston University’s Religion Department) wrote,

What Hitchens gets wrong is religion itself. . . . [he] assumes a childish definition of religion and then criticizes religious people for believing such foolery. But it is Hitchens who is the naïf. . . . Readers with any sense of irony—and here I do not exclude believers— will be surprised to see how little inquiring Hitchens has done and how limited and literal is his own ill-prepared reduction of religion. . . . I have never encountered a book whose author is so fundamentally unacquainted with its subject. In the end, this maddeningly dogmatic book does little more than illustrate one of Hitchens’s pet themes—the ability of dogma to put reason to sleep.

The question: Why is Hitchens so “maddeningly dogmatic”? The answer, again: sex.

What I don’t get is why Hitchens believes that the freedom to have sex is tied to freedom from religion. Who in his circle (or, for that matter, who anywhere) is not having sex these days because of the anything the Pope says? What does Hitchens think all those Muslim sheiks are doing to their twelve-year-old brides in Riyadh? And given the high statistical rates of adultery and divorce in North American evangelical/fundamentalist circles, and (according to studies) the higher-than-average numbers of church-going porn addicts in the Bible belt, who today does Hitchens think is suffering dangerous sexual repression because of a belief in God?

Hitchens’s preoccupation with sex is woven throughout his book and articles. As he pushes into old age, Hitchens’s writing tends to circle back to sex, the wanting and the getting of sex in a schoolboy wanker-style. When asked by an interviewer from the Village Voice (March 18, 2008) to speculate on why New York’s (then governor) Elliott Spitzer risked his career by going to whores, Hitchen’s answer unintentionally revealed his own bottom line (no pun) concerning men given to acting the part of the alpha male. The interviewer asked,

So what in the wide world was Eliot Spitzer thinking? “Oh, that’s easy,” Christopher Hitchens said from his Washington apartment . . . “You wouldn’t be doing any of this if one of the objectives was not to increase the amount of pussy that was available to you. That is what you do. . . . You don’t do it to be, ah, the most approval-rated governor, for fuck’s sake.” During the 1992 presidential primary season, Hitchens pointed out, the day that Clinton won the endorsement was the very day he hit on Paula Jones. “He said, ‘Wait—I could be the next president. . . . Now, where’s the next cutie? Because I need that now, much more than I did 10 minutes ago,’” Hitchens speculated. And likewise with JFK: “With Kennedy, it’s really all over the guy for everyone to see,” Hitchens said. “From dawn till dusk, from soup to nuts, from everything he does to the last day he dies: ‘I do this to get laid.’ What’s the point of all this if I don’t get an orgasm now? What’s the point of being an alpha male? Anyone who doesn’t get this,” [Hitchens] concluded, “doesn’t know.”
 

Besides obsessing over his brother Peter, why does Hitchens bother writing? Take a wild guess. Here’s Hitchens’s answer as offered in his article on “Why Women Aren’t Funny” in Vanity Fair of January 2007. “The chief task in life that a man has to perform is that of impressing the opposite sex.” Hitchens explains that his method to get into bed with women is to make them laugh “with their mouths wide open.” That, he claims, is his best shot. He concludes, “If I am correct about this, which I am, then the explanation for the superior funniness of men is much the same as for the inferior funniness of women.” In other words, men are funny in order to impress humorless women into having sex with them.

According to Hitchens, women are humorless because they make babies, and he notes that that’s why “episiotomy jokes” fall flat with women and advises would be seducers to avoid dead child jokes too.

Hitchens gets to the nub of his grudge against God when he lashes out against what he calls “the three great monotheisms.” Hitchens says that the concept of God is a “totalitarian belief.” He ends his book with this statement on the all-important last page:

Above all, we are in need of a renewed Enlightenment. . . . The pursuit of unfettered scientific inquiry, and the availability of new findings to masses of people by electronic means, will revolution¬ize our concepts of research and development. Very importantly, the divorce between the sexual life and fear, and the sexual life and disease, and the sexual life and tyranny, can now at last be attempted, on the sole condition that we banish all religions from the discourse. 

Hitchens is also fascinated by the temporary marriages offered by religious leaders in Iran and then tells us that:

The relationship between physical health and mental health is well understood to have a strong connection to the sexual function, or dysfunction. Can it be a coincidence, then, that all religions claim the right to litigate in matters of sex? To survey the history of sex¬ual dread and proscription, as codified by religion, is to be met with a very disturbing . . . extreme repression. Almost every sex¬ual impulse has been made the occasion for prohibition, guilt, and shame . . . oral sex, anal sex, non-missionary-position sex. . . . Clearly, the human species is designed to experiment with sex.
 

 

Sex and brother Peter aside, Hitchens’s views strike me as a version of the no-elephant pebble story. A man says that carrying a particular magic pebble in his pocket keeps elephants out of the room. He always carries the pebble, and there never are any elephants in any rooms he walks into! Hitchens treats religion as his pet “pebble”: People are bad, and religion is always lurking about, so there¬fore, religion is making people bad.

But does religion make people worse than they would be without religion? Twenty-first-century Britain is more atheistic than ever, yet crime has gone up. Iran became a theocracy and more religious than ever, and crime went up there as well (not to mention state-sponsored terror). What do the atheist Britons and religious Iranians have in common? They’re human. Whatever they say they believe, and they evolved from the same tribe of marauding murdering monkeys we all descended from.

Whatever the merits of his arguments, to put it mildly, Hitchens ideas don’t seem to have worked out too well for him personally. If Hitchens being Hitchens is an example of those “hardwon human attainments,” the rest of us would do well to avoid them. If Dawkins messianic/commercial website is the future of atheism, we might just be entering a new age of religion pushed there by the reaction to the reaction against religion.

 

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Still Has Value
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 3, 2009 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe in God(s) but I do happen to think there are valuable moral and ethical lessons to be gleaned from religion(s). Our task as a modern society is indeed to separate the toxic elements from the elements that will make the world a better place.

I don't agree with dismissing religious thought out of hand because it's supposedly antiquated. This is thousands of years of tradition, culture and history that can't just be overlooked.

My hope is that we can distill religion's most valuable lessons down to new cultural traditions that are positive and inclusive, removing the impurities. A new vodka for the soul!

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» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: cary
» "Then one foggy Christmas Eve" Posted by: launcher
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» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: Naumadd
» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: americancontragenic
» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: americancontragenic

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Still Has Value
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 3, 2009 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe in God(s) but I do happen to think there are valuable moral and ethical lessons to be gleaned from religion(s). Our task as a modern society is indeed to separate the toxic elements from the elements that will make the world a better place.

I don't agree with dismissing religious thought out of hand because it's supposedly antiquated. This is thousands of years of tradition, culture and history that can't just be overlooked.

My hope is that we can distill religion's most valuable lessons down to new cultural traditions that are positive and inclusive, removing the impurities. A new vodka for the soul!

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» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: rock

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Still Has Value
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 3, 2009 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe in God(s) but I do happen to think there are valuable moral and ethical lessons to be gleaned from religion(s). Our task as a modern society is indeed to separate the toxic elements from the elements that will make the world a better place.

I don't agree with dismissing religious thought out of hand because it's supposedly antiquated. This is thousands of years of tradition, culture and history that can't just be overlooked.

My hope is that we can distill religion's most valuable lessons down to new cultural traditions that are positive and inclusive, removing the impurities. A new vodka for the soul!

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» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: InsertNameHere

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Sorry but the author of this is highly insulting, arrogant, and terrified of Dawkins!
Posted by: thinks4herself2008 on Nov 3, 2009 1:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I may not agree with everything Richard Dawkins states, but I admire and appreciate him. He has always been more than respectful when debating some rather annoying and even rude people. Hey, if you don't like Dawkins, don't go to his website or read his books or watch his videos (which were fantastic by the way and highly informative!), but please don't throw him under the bus for all of us who do respect him.

Second, I have been on Professor Dawkins' website and enjoyed his videos about various species, etc., and I hardly think I'm a "deluded (not terribly bright) follower" and find the author of this to be the one who is arrogant and a little too full of himself. I guess it's difficult to let go of being a big shot or the son of a big shot, but you are not speaking for a vast many of us out here and are a bit out of touch.

Why is Professor Dawkins so under the skin anyway? Could it be he hits the nail on the head, and there's enough residual religious indoctrination that the author is more than a wee bit uncomfortable? Letting go of the BS is hard to do.

Religions are weighty and deeply rooted with an overwhelming number of churches and faiths, etc., in the USA. We need ALL voices: Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, etc. They each bring something of value to the table.

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» You just failed the smell test Posted by: bingahaba

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Outspoken atheists, blah blah
Posted by: cary on Nov 3, 2009 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello?

They're not dogmatic, they're not closed-minded. That's the opposite of science and rationality.

They require evidence to back up extraordinary claims. Religion has none.

They accurately point out how religion informs and is used to justify some of the most immoral and despicable behaviors in the world today.

The only reason you're worked up about them deriding religion is because its religion. As if religious ideas should somehow not be subject to the same critique as other ideas.

I can think of nothing more dangerous than to exempt from criticism a class of ideas that so pervasively informs public policy. If Bush had claimed Zeus supported the invasion of Iraq he would have been publicly and universally lambasted, but because he invoked the Christian God, for whose existence we have exactly no objective evidence, there was only a small hue and cry.

And you ask if outspoken atheism is as dangerous as Christian fundamentalism. Good grief, get some perspective.

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» Straw Man!!! Posted by: Karlh

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Christianity needs convenient enemies...
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 3, 2009 3:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
be it Commies, gays, and now (gasp) godless atheists...
something to rally the ranks with and try to stave off those declining memberships.

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Long winded.
Posted by: daniel_t on Nov 3, 2009 3:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, a 9 page long ad hominem attack.

If you don't like Dawkins or Hitchens as people, fine but you don't have to bring up atheism to do that... Unless it's atheism itself that you are trying to smear.

And don't give me that, "but their doing it too!" Didn't you ever learn that two wrongs don't make a right?

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» Nine-pages Pedantic of Word Vomit Posted by: moloko velocet
» Are you on mind altering drugs? Posted by: bingahaba

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handmjones
Posted by: handmjones on Nov 3, 2009 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would be wonderful if the, I think vast majority of us, who believe in the good influence of the church, but do not believe the books of the various religions are other than the works of man, would come out of the closet.

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» RE: handmjones Posted by: Basenjis
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Atheism is not another cult.
Posted by: batmagoo on Nov 3, 2009 4:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Theists tend to use the word "atheist" as if to describe another fringe belief system - another lunatic club...A veiled attempt at implying parity - as if all theories are equally valid, including that "nutty" evolution theory and all beliefs have equal merit, including those "atheist folk," with their nihilism nonsense.
Make no mistake about it: there is no such thing as atheism. As Richard Dawkins rightly calls it, there is reason and there are enemies of reason. This has been so since the birth of mankind. Today, reasonable people are polite enough to refrain from belaboring the fact theists used to burn witches and people who believed that the Earth is round.
We have quietly ceased referring to the many aberrations of our less than glorious past, and are merely trying to deal with present insanity.
Given the passing of enough time, reason eventually grows, but only in hindsight.

Atheists and reasonable people in fact deserve as much respect and tax breaks as the religious, for their contribution to our survival is greater.

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» Atheists deserve tax breaks too. Posted by: eddie torres
» Flat Earth? Posted by: suprmark

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It sounds Arrogant..ignorant...only if your superstitious
Posted by: majr17440 on Nov 3, 2009 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Each time i have a conversation with someone and it they're answer is "well god made it that way" or "We'll its in gods hands" i wanna slap the person. Theism provides people a comfort yes....but a comfort that allows for the stagnation of our people... we didn't have federal funding for stem cells during bush because an embryo has a soul, and ever sperm is sacred...our planet is overpopulated because god made our wants us to work, have sex and worship him....multiply and prosper...the pope tells Africans condoms help the spread of aids. Honestly Hitchens needs to raise his voice. I know this post wont get high ratings...."god forbid" lol. But the world will be a much better place when israel, mecca, and every holy site is obliterated dust, and people can remember the teachings of these fine men...jesus, buddha, Confucius, krishna were.. men who were slightly crazed but really cared about humanity. And im pretty sure all taught one common thing LOVE THE MAN TO YOUR RIGHT, AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE LOVED. Meaning our happiness is dependent on the happiness of those around us.

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Inclusionary and Exclusionary
Posted by: sunnywater on Nov 3, 2009 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As regards atheism and theism , both create a unique variety of stresses born of the actual demands caused by living within the terms stipulated by cultural paradigms.

The impact of religion on society in this case are including the impact of society on religion, in that those societies which choose to stringently limit the parameters a paradigm of their members tend in fact to embrace equally stringent and limiting religious concepts.

Those societies where there is a wider concept regarding religions, the religions themselves tend to expand as it were in a reciprocal manner to the social conditions.

When many societies converge in either a single place or a single frame of reference, occasionally the result is on comprehension and inclusion, but that only occurs when society and religion both accommodate such inclusion.

When limited societies and exclusionary societies experience the same interaction, there is a dramatic increase in the degree and types of exclusion carried on and the folkloric supports of exclusion comes to the fore, as the inclusionary folkloric supports come to the fore under the aegis of social inclusion.

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Atheists Have Religious Friends.
Posted by: melpol on Nov 3, 2009 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some Atheists would not protest if every religious leader was hanged and houses of worship closed. They also believe that the bible was written by men that were insane. But most Atheists have friends that are believers and keep their friendship alive by never discussing religious views.

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» RE: Atheists Have Religious Friends. Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair

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Your entire premise is flawed
Posted by: Squally on Nov 3, 2009 4:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're saying that it's OK to attack the "New Atheists" rather than their arguments because they do the same. However, they don't do that and even if they did it doesn't make your argument any more valild.

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» Where was this premise made? Posted by: bingahaba

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A Distinction
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 3, 2009 4:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People often have strong opinions and, at least in principle, the American tradition is to welcome expression of these opinions. There is nothing at all wrong with forcefully arguing your own point of view whether at the dinner table or in print.

Where people cross over the line is when they try to force others to live by their own opinions. When anti-choice groups try to subvert current law by intimidating people they cross that line. When a group tries to block election of an atheist to office, that too crosses the line. When a group tries to subvert the teaching of evolution that too crosses the line.

I would give some examples of atheists crossing this line, but I really don't know of any. Perhaps the author can provide some.

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No. New atheists are not as bad as Christian fundamentalists.
Posted by: Vinkenoog on Nov 3, 2009 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a weirdly convoluted article. Here's the difference between "New" Atheists and Christian fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists are dogmatically defending things that can't possibly be proved. Atheists are defending reality.

Gee, it's so shocking that after thousands of years of religious fundamentalism causing wars that kill hundreds of thousands or in some cases millions of people, non-believers might get a little spooked and tell people to knock it off. I couldn't care less if they mention their website in the process.

Ooh, Richard Dawkins is making money off his atheism. Really? Has he made enough to build a Crystal Cathedral yet? Is he getting a monthly stipend from grandma's social security? Comparing him to the Christian fundamentalists that have been ripping off the poor for decades in order to be "blessed" is a crock.

I don't blame Richard Dawkins for wanting to make noise about this. We atheists have been marginalized and even victimized for too long. It took until 2008 for a US President to even mention that we exist.

Atheists are the latest group to come out of the closet and it's difficult. I don't need anyone comparing me to a fundamentalist Christian. I pussyfoot around believers just like every other atheist does and I commend those that have the guts not to.

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» RE: No. Posted by: IntlDad

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Enablers
Posted by: jmmartin on Nov 3, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frank Schaeffer is the religious equivalent of an enabler. By putting down the "New Atheists" (atheists are atheists; there is noting new in these writers' message), he enables the far right wing nutjobs like Hagee and Parsley to get away with their shenanigans. I read Schaeffer's biography. I was led to be lieve he would spill the beans on the megachurches and televangelists. I was terribly disappointed.

Schaeffer can say what he wants about Harris, Dennett, Dawkins, and Hitchens, but nothing he says will prove the existence of "God," a concept he stubbornly continues to cherish. He is just as deluded as all the rest.

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NO, you shut up
Posted by: hms2004 on Nov 3, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Schaefer, your 9-page diatribe can be summarized into 2 words: "Shut up!" That is your message to atheists. You're just another religious tool trying to muzzle atheists. I may not agree with everything Dawkins or Hitchens has to say but I applaud their willingness to put themselves out there and argue our side in this debate. There has to be some voice for the sane people in this world. Your article also completely fails to demonstrate how the so-called 'new atheists' are alike to religious fundamentalists. Are the new atheists flying planes into buildings? Are they trying to influence the legislative process? Are they trying to control high school science curricula? No they are not. They are just presenting their ideas in the marketplace. I think what really pisses you off though is the fact that Dawkins, Hitchens, and Sam Harris can sell more books than you by appealing to reason. You're upset that more and more Americans are looking behind the curtain and rejecting your false god. No sir, we will not be quiet.

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» RE: book sales Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: book sales Posted by: hms2004

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freethinker54
Posted by: freethinker54 on Nov 3, 2009 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are the new atheists like the x-tian fundamentalists? Um, no. A fundamentalist will not change his/her mind with evidence. Richard Dawkins will "believe" in gods if you present him with evidence. Frank Schaeffer is desperate to hold on to at least parts of his fairy tales. His "arguments" are silly and full of holes. I like Daniel Dennett, Hitchens, Dawkins, Sam Harris--all have different styles. I think Schaeffer is just jealous.

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I believe this discussion is always dishonest
Posted by: Beck on Nov 3, 2009 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These arguments are always basically dishonest. The problem isn't what religious belief consists of, whether it's true or false, it's that people are trying to walk right into the heads of others and for some bizarre and controlling reason, CHANGE them. No one has any more right to do this, and no one is any more normal for even being interested in it, than you have a right to walk into my living room and critique my furniture, or try to get me to buy the car you like.

The problem is always presented this way: is religion true, or isn't it? But that point of discussion could not come up without this underlying belief: does anyone have the right to decide others need influenced, then proceed to do so, aside from what that individual requests or desires? I say that no one has this right, that this is one of the main criticisms of religions in general, yet many of the articles and a vast number of the comments display exactly that desire: to find and influence people religiously, people who didn't ask for it and don't want the input. Evolution is always included, as if that's what atheism is always all about, and as if NO religious people believe in it, and all religious people fight it. Obviously, none of these are true.

The recent atheist articles could not have been written without the assumption by the writer that s/he has the right, and probably the duty, to comment on the thoughts of others, and their life practices. These writers have no more rights to this than Jerry Falwell ever did. Religion is a horribly difficult subject to write on: you must be able to separate the subject from the humans involved in the subject. I don't observe that the atheists here even think that is required. Words like "silly" and "stupid", words that would not be tolerated by a rightwinger discussing anyone not born again, are used freely and casually. This is always a terrible sign. Anyone who uses "silly" does think herself as capable of commenting from above a group of people she makes it clear she knows better than. Of course it rankles the group. It is SUPPOSED to. Sheeple are dumb and bad, right? Well, don't expect anyone to happily and compliantly join the group you're knocking.

I think I'll write an article about how stupid some vacation spots are, and how smart it is to go to the ones I like. I'll have plenty of reasons, very true to me and absolutely consistent with my experience. Will anyone be gullible enough to argue the points of that article? Or will people rightly come back with, "where do you get off? My life is MY life. I'll vacation wherever I goddam please". I never read anything like this, yet something far more important and personal is constantly being sneered at, as if the writer knows they have the absolute right.

We all arrive at where we are through ways we meant to travel, through ways we tried to avoid but were stuck with anyway, and one thing is for sure: if you've arrived at your final goal of thought, you're stuck. Your brain is turning to concrete. Don't expect anyone to join you in the hardening process, and especially don't expect anyone who can see what you're doing to yourself feel happy about your insistence that we join you.

Beliefs are intensely personal, arrived at for many reasons. Everyone needs to leave everyone else's alone. Fight for the teaching of evolution or for any other injustices in the real world. But people's heads need left alone, with respect and perspective.

One last bit of dishonesty: no one is influenced, although the pretense seems to be that that will happen, of course. No one is an atheist after reading an article. The vegan articles have not changed one diet or saved one cow. The political comments have probably cause less people to be in small parties. Big decisions come from big influences, a series of them over a long period of time.

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short answer: no
Posted by: HelperMonkey on Nov 3, 2009 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article seems to be a fairly long moan about how the author doesn't like some of the 'new atheists.' So dawkins sells merchandise? Who cares?

They're not as bad as fundamentalists because they're not spewing out hate-mongering, unsubstantiated claims about an all-seeing all-knowing being who listens to all our thoughts.

I don't care if you don't like them. They're logical. They're reasonable. There is nothing that I have heard dawkins ever say for example, that I could classify as faith or faith-based in any way. No real atheist has faith that god doesn't exist, they simply realise that there is no proof that one does, and don't see a need to fill the gap.

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There is a third option
Posted by: teenabooth on Nov 3, 2009 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The argument between athiests (materialists) and fundamentalists (dualists) rages on as if those are the only two options for belief. But there is a third way, called idealism. Remember Plato, Hegel, Spinoza, Emerson, Thoreau?

There is such a thing as spirituality without superstition, and it is growing in America -- 30 percent of Americans are now "spiritual but not religious" says Newsweek -- and yet the athiests and the religious keep pummeling each other like they are the only two options on the planet.

Maybe if they let go of each other's throats they might notice there is a third option that is both intellectually and spiritually satisfying.

www.newagepride.org

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» RE: There is a third option Posted by: masthead

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Are religious moderates as bad as christian fundamentalists?
Posted by: dutchbul on Nov 3, 2009 6:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for all the personal attacks regurgitated in this article, very enlightening stuff.

Anyway, the author fails to explain the intellectual black hole that he has weaved for us. If people who blindly believe in the bible are wrong, and people who strongly believe in science and reason are wrong, who's right? Well, the author's own personal brand of wishy-washy religiosity, of course! A quick read of the internets should have lead this guy to a whole trove of articles destroying the logic he has employed.

I just love it when a moderate believer equates strong belief in the natural sciences with fundamentalist belief in fictional accounts of our past. It exposes the moderates as weak minded and intellectually inferior. Thanks.

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» Reason is a human construct Posted by: suprmark

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What a stupid article
Posted by: soulrebeljc on Nov 3, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, of course "New Atheists" are not as dangerous as fundamentalist religious kooks. For one, we are not likely to kill someone over whether or not God exists. Why is it not OK to view the entire concept of 'faith' as idiocy? It certainly has a historical precedent as such. Seriously, what is so virtuous about believing in something with no evidence? (No, the bible does NOT count as evidence, not in any meaningful way.)

People are welcome to 'believe' whatever LooneyTunes ideas they want. They are all as LooneyTunes as each other - virgin birth, 72 virgins upon martyrdom, resurrection after 3 days, jesus came among the native americans - take your pick, all equally loopy...on par with the actual belief in a god, which is no more or less nutty than any of the surrounding myths. I would just like to see us get to a point where believing in god is something people grow out of, like the tooth fairy or the easter bunny or santa claus.

I don't have to respect "belief". I can accept that people "believe" many strange things, but I don't have to respect it. Any real moral ideas (the Golden Rule being the big one) do not need a god for validity.

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The good the bad and the ugly
Posted by: solrev on Nov 3, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is in the eye of the beholder. “Dennett believes that the answer is that religions evolved as a response to our fears and as an explanation to ourselves of what we don’t understand.” Dennett seems to possess the same fear motivation as the Elmer Gantry’s. What if a long time ago an infected man went deep into his cave and chanted to images drawn from inside him and on the cave wall, not driven by fear but by the infection itself. What if the infection and the image within him are one and the same? We mystics believe that we were created with that infection or in the image within. That is where the journey begins. Western atheism, Judeo-Christian-Islamic fundamentalism is just scenery at this point in time in the space time continuum. Enjoy the trip while you are a part of it in the dimension of the flush, because one can not escape the infection or the image within. Once upon a time there was a beginning, then there was an awakening, now is the era of the reconciliation, I would tell you what the next era will be but you would not believe it. Since you will not be here then it is not important right now, but your descendents are going to love it. The reconciliation is not as most Christians believe, between man and God, but they are at least on the journey. The reconciliation is more like Jesus said, your sins shall be forgiven, now how you going to act? Believe or do not believe, just keep spreading the word, that is how evangelism really works in the space time continuum, it is imbedded in your culture, an infection, an itch you can not scratch. We have come a long way from the images on the cave wall, from golden calves and even the books of the trinity themselves, all in search of a cure for the infection, the image within.

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I can't believe religious folk
Posted by: TLCTugger on Nov 3, 2009 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...would admit to not literally believing in scripture, but still support religion for its benevolence.

It's not benevolent at all. It's toxic.

Whatever good it does could also be done without superstition.

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WHAT!!!
Posted by: CBleichner on Nov 3, 2009 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet..... HOW COULD YOU POST THIS BULLSHIT.

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What an unprecedented piece of drivel.
Posted by: g on Nov 3, 2009 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am right now quite happy that I resisted Alternet's fundraising drive and gave my money elsewhere. I would have seriously regretted giving money to an organization that panders this kind of BS. In saying that the new atheists are no better than Ted Haggard, this writer reveals himself as unbiased and accurate as Lou Dobbs.
When exactly where PZ Myers, Dawkins and the other new atheists caught organizing a vote against the rights of a category of people (gays, women, immigrants)? Whenever has any of them being caught engaging in the behaviors that they chastise on a regular basis (going with prostitutes, male or females)? Most importantly, since when is a public and vigorous defense of one's belief the equivalent of intolerance and disrespect? People deserve respect, not opinion. People who feel disrespected every single time their opinion is challenged do not belong to civil debate. Atheists and supporters of Darwin do not whine "I have been disrespected" whenever creationists open their mouth: they get to work to show how untenable creationism is. This is what makes the kind of apologetics that Alternet is currently engaged in so intolerable. No atheist suggests that religion should be cracked down on. You want to find intolerance, look at believers wgo screed that atheists do not deserve tolerance, or that, at the very least, they should shot up about their beliefs. It's atheists who are unelectable, even when they show impeccable moral code.
If you are made uncomfortable by the fact that there are people who do not believe in God and who are not afraid to say so, this ought to be your problem. You have no right to tell others to stop manifesting their beliefs because you do not like them.
Shame on you, Alternet. I guess this is where you and I part ways.

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This article is ridiculous
Posted by: rational_moderate on Nov 3, 2009 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I very strongly believe in free speech, so I won't chime in with the criticisms that Alternet posted this. I think the editors/managers should bias towards accepting opinions that are all over the map, including stupid ones.
Nonetheless, in saying that, I feel a bit like the ACLU defending the Nazi party's right to march through Skokie, IL (a heavily Jewish community), as happened back in the 1970's.
Personally, I'd like to see this stupid and hostile meme (the idea that atheists are like fundamentalists) killed.

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Correction
Posted by: powdermonkey1 on Nov 3, 2009 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In other words, to Hitchens, Stalin and Hitler and Mao and Pol Pot and their ilk were more to be understood as bad popes than as bad atheists."

Hitler (at least) was a devout Christian.

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» Not Posted by: wefearwhatwedontunderstand

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in a word...YES
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Nov 3, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the "new atheists" ARE just as bad as christian fundies - i speak from the experience of working for a small "humanist" community on the west coast - the people in the community i work with are every bit as dogmatic about their beliefs (some times more so) as the fundies i encountered in the mid west...atheism is just another religion...it is just as intolerant of those who do not believe the same thing(s) they do, just as sure they are correct and the group i work for is a 501(c)(3) religious organization...

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» as intolerant..really? Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: in a word...YES Posted by: masthead
» RE: in a word...YES Posted by: Hirnlego

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Political Militancy
Posted by: ClassAct on Nov 3, 2009 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American political and judicial systems have consistently written laws and interpretations of those laws implicitly finding that Christian values are morally superior to those of other systems -- or even those of non-religious rationality. (Witness the war on the public trading under the name of a war on drugs.) Militancy is an effective counterbalance to that support garnered by those whom the author considers to be "bad preachers," so "let a hundred flowers bloom." We can worry about tending the garden when we have beaten back the weeds.

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For the Science!
Posted by: Balance40 on Nov 3, 2009 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A couple of years ago South Park had a couple of episodes (Go God Go, Go God Go XII) where one character went forward in time where Richard Dawkins had managed to convert the world to atheism. The result? We still had wars. The various factions on earth instead saying for God or Allah said "For the Science!". The factions where divided on who was the best and most authentic atheist. Sound familiar?

South Park's point is even if religion did not exist or Dawkins wet dream came true we would still have wars and disagreements because we are human.

All movements throughout history struggle for acceptance from larger society at some point or another. They generally go through a phase where they try and stand out by railing against everyone else. They also have their share of nutballs. Seems pretty common to the species.

At a certain point atheists will take their place along Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, agnostics, pagans and everybody else. Maybe, just maybe we will find out what we have in common as human beings and stop trying to convert each other to our point of view.

In the meantime I thank Alternet for posting this article. I may not agree with everything posted here but it is nice to hear not only from the atheists but the believers as well.

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» RE: For the Science! Posted by: batmagoo
» RE: For the Science! Posted by: Balance40
» RE: For the Science! Posted by: masthead
» RE: For the Science! Posted by: Balance40

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Mike Spindell
Posted by: mikespindell on Nov 3, 2009 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought this was an excellent article primarily because both Dawkins and Hitchens are two blowhards with little conception of the flaws in their arguments. I say that as someone who doubts the existence of a creative force ordering the Universe and finds the concept of an afterlife to be without merit.

The problem with Atheism per se though is that as one looks at the realms of scientific discovery of things that are totally counter-intuitive like 11 dimensions, or the interconnectedness of all matter and energy, a reasonable person must admit there is also the possibility of a creative force ordering the universe. This is not a definite logical truth, but it remains a viable possibility.

My own use of LSD in my youth taught me that the fabric of what we call reality is quite thin and subjective. While I'm not optimistic about a God created/driven universe, I believe it is still an open question.

Both Mr. Dawkins and Mr. Hitchen also reinterpret religious belief in terms of their own pre-judgments and lack of understanding of contexts. The creators of many sacred texts were not primitives, but people adept in the use of metaphor and analogy. Genesis in its' time was not understood as actual history, but was a metaphor for creation. In the Jewish Torah for instance it is quite informative to realize that all of the patriarchs and their wives were seriously flawed people. That was the point, rather than a belief that this was actual history.

Anyone familiar with Hellenic religious beliefs knows that Zeus' pantheon were metaphors for the world and society. Yet people like Dawkins and Hitchens fail to grasp this and that is proof of their own pre-judgment clouding their thinking.

The religious evil in this world has always been the misuse of the various teachings by men lusting for power, who reinterpret their holy writings to produce results foreign to the original intent. This has been the evil of organized religion, but it is less about precepts and belief and more about social control.

Dawkins and Hitchens similarly misuse their limited understanding of religion in pursuit of the same ego driven things. Neither of them are the threats that religious Fundamentalists of all stripes are, but they have a similar nature to them. If you want to really know what Dawkins is about, read his seminal work "The Selfish Gene" and see if his view of humanity is congruent to yours. As for Hitchens, never trust anyone who has ever been a Trotskyite, they are seriously deranged and curiously at base humorless people. Hitchens may crow about his sexual exploits but in the end he loathes and hates women.

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» RE: Mike Spindell Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Mike Spindell Posted by: stuarts
» RE: Thank you stuarts. Posted by: batmagoo
» speaking of not grasping Posted by: wefearwhatwedontunderstand

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Atheists are dogmatic but not as zealous as fundamentalists
Posted by: wunderkim on Nov 3, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I think a militant counter-attack to the centuries-long denigration of atheists is overdue, so I'm content to have Dawkins, Hutchins and Harris speaking out.

However, it is true that as a group, "active" atheists are dogmatic like many fundamentalists.

A study was conducted by psychology researchers Bruce Hunsberger and Bob Altemeyer, in which they measured several categories of social outlook for active atheists and religious fundamentalists, including: dogmatism, zealotry, prejudice, and authoritarianism.

The conclusion: active atheists are pretty dogmatic, comparing near religious fundamentalists. But atheists are less zealous, far less prejudiced, and far less authoritarian than religious fundamentalists.

There isn't much scientific social data about atheists, so most of the arguments like Schaeffer's are no more than emotional responses based on personal experiences and biases.

But with Hunsberger and Altemeyer's study we at least have the beginnings of legitimate social data on atheists. Let's use this data when we are criticizing or defending the group.

Title: Atheists: A Groundbreaking Study of America's Nonbelievers
Author: Bruce E. Hunsberger and Bob Altemeyer
Publ Date: June, 2006
Publisher: Prometheus Books
ISBN: 1591024137

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You're wrong on one count
Posted by: daniel1982 on Nov 3, 2009 9:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Breaking the Spell Dennett levels a subtle rebuke at Dawkins, even though he doesn’t name him: “Biologists are often accused of gene-centrism—thinking that everything in biology is explained by the action of genes. And some biologists do indeed go overboard in their infatuation with genes. They should be reminded that Mother Nature is not a gene centrist!”

I just checked my copy of Dawkins' 'Extended Phenotype' and sure enough there's a forward by Daniel Dennett. The 'Extended Phenotype' is an expanded (and more rigorous) version of the 'Selfish Gene'. Nothing I've ever heard from Dennett contradicts the 'Selfish Gene' view that Dawkins puts forth. This smells like quote mining.

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» And i was right.. Posted by: daniel1982
» And u were right? Posted by: Sojourner

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Ageorge1
Posted by: ageorge1 on Nov 3, 2009 9:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an atheist. My basic premise is that religion and morality are not one and the same thing.
But, beyond that, Dr. Dawkins, is fighting a political war against Christian and Jewish and Muslim fundamentalist's attempt to distort science, particularly evolution. This isn't something that just popped into his brain.
As I recall, in the early 90's Dawkins was Britain's science education guru. He has been passionate about the subject long before he became known as an idealogue.
However, Dawkins has spent too much time disproving the anti-scientific wave across the world. He doesn't really espouse a philosophy about what it means to be an Atheist and how this understanding of the Universe affects daily life. He is too strident and he answers no questions beyond the refutation of religion.
He should confine his remarks to the subject of Evolutionary Biology and leave the philosophizing about Atheism to others.

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» RE: Ageorge1 Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Ageorge1 Posted by: ageorge1
» RE: Ageorge1 Posted by: Hirnlego
» RE: Ageorge1 Posted by: Naumadd

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specious reasoning
Posted by: jareilly on Nov 3, 2009 10:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This sort of sophomoric comparison is the worst sort of specious "common ground, third way, bi-partisan" piffle. Show me even one instance in which atheists have started mass movements based on unfounded myths and imagined supernatural powers, then led campaigns of mass murder and extinction in their name. And spare me the dodge about Stalin. Stalinism was a cult and a criminal racket, whose leader was a bank robber and professional leg breaker before vaulting himself into absolute power (more or less by murdering everybody else). Atheism was a sideshow in Stalin's USSR.

Hitchens is a bad-tempered crank with some very foolish ideas (pro-Iraq War, pro-War on Terror). He may also be a serious alcoholic depending on whose accounts you read (try Juan Cole). He has a savage wit and you don't want to be the target, but his critique of religion is sound, if offensive to the delicate sensitivities of religionists. Unfortunately for this debate, religionists tend to view mere questions and criticism as a form of bigotry and discrimination. This is yet more unreason, hiding behind prevailing myths of "tolerance".

Dawkins is, frankly, arrogant and cocksure. That was clear in his early work, "The Selfish Gene", which adopts in part, the same mocking tone as does the "God Delusion". He tends to snear at his opponents.

In the end, however, so what? Hitchens and Dawkins can be unpleasant, even wrong. So what? Why are people of "faith" so reactive towards their opponent's comments? What is so threatening? If you believe, you believ, right? The comments of a non-believer should have no effect whatsoever.

Or is their faith actually brittle, fragile and weak? Is their worldview in reality a paper-thin rationalization tarted up in remnant mythology from 2000 years ago? Is that why religionists are so offended by Hitchen's and Dawkins's snarky tone? Are they afraid the atheists might be right?

Good! First step back into the world of reality! It's called "doubt". It won't hurt you even though you must be strong to live with it (like gravity and the certainty of death). Keep stepping - jump right in, the water's fine! Just leave that medieval scripture in the recycling bin by the pool.

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» RE: specious reasoning Posted by: popsicle67
» RE: specious reasoning Posted by: Doubtom43

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A Christian AlterNet reader weighs in
Posted by: nearblindjames on Nov 3, 2009 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You read that right -- I am a long time AlterNet reader and a Christian. I know that puts me in a pretty small minority. But that's OK, let's make it even smaller -- I used to be an atheist. I also read Greta Christina's piece last week about "3 Silly Religious Beliefs held by non-silly people". A couple of the comments to that article actually used the phrase she was "preaching to the choir". You gotta love that irony. I wonder Greta's feelings about her last name too, since it's a not too difficult anagram of "Christian". A popular theme of all these pieces seems to be that religion and science are somehow total and polar opposites of each other. I believe them to be the exact same thing. Science is the search for physical truth -- religion and/or philosophy the search for spriritual and moral truth. The atheists I've read on this site all speak to there being spiritual goodness and morality even in the absence of religion. And I agree the Old Testament God does look like a very ill-tempered mythological cartoon. Hey, we all do the best we can with what we've got. Put some of us in a time machine to 3000 BC and let's see how well we fare. So the point being, we are more than the sum of our parts. Science knows quite accurately what chemicals, elements and compounds make up a human body, and in what proportions. Mix all that stuff in a bowl for 9 months at 98 degrees F, and at the end that gob of goo will not get up, walk around and write articles on the Internet. What's the spark that animates us and all other life? I believe that to be where we start to look for God. And even if Dr. Frankenstein can discover/harness/focus this energy onto a cadaver, he still didn't create it. He just found it and used it. This will probably happen one day, and I just hope the first re-animated cadaver looks a lot like the great Peter Boyle. We may never find it, but the journey is still a noble one. Science may figure out how the whole thing works, the elusive unified theory. It will never answer why we're all here and the universe even bothers to exist at all. There is where we try to fill the gaps with religion. Do I know why? Of course not, but neither does anyone else. Questions are fundamental to humans. I certainly have no qualms with questioning God. So if God installed in us all her/his/its own capabilities (the good and the bad), how do we maximize the good ones? I personally want to live a life that helps others -- and probably many atheists do too. A role model like Jesus or Buddha serves humans very well. As many comments posted on the political articles here point out, we people have a very sheep-like quality to follow, sometimes blindly. And no matter how high you try to put yourself above those you feel lesser than you, we're all really just about the same underneath the veneer. Some smarter, some prettier, some wiser, some stronger -- but all with basically the same hopes, fears and dreams. We need each other, and we want to feel loved and accepted. One point the author does get right though, is the great similarity of both the evangelical atheists and Bible-thumpers. There is a great lack of love, tolerance, compassion and empahty from both groups. I'm expecting a negative response (if anyone even bothers to read my little missive)-- bash me, insult me, call me names. I'm ready and it won't bother me nary a bit. I may even come back and read some of them later. Just don't be hateful just for hateful's sake. Try to make it funny if you can. And for Ms. Christina, Mr. Hitchens, and Mr. Dawkins -- God will always love you too.

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» Are you... Mel Brooks? Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Are you... Mel Brooks? Posted by: nearblindjames
» RE: Are you... Mel Brooks? Posted by: eddie torres
» Why are we here? Posted by: Naumadd

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Atheist like Dawkins are like the Christian media whores? You serious?
Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Nov 3, 2009 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally I don't see atheist Christopher Hitchens as an egomaniac intolerant fundamentalist type. He has a great sense of humor, and while he has firm atheistic views, he is at least fun and interesting to listen to. Unlike the fundamentalist Christians Mr Schaeffer listed, I don't see any of the most visible atheists he mentioned coming anywhere near what the religious folks are doing. And unlike the religious fundamentalist media whores, at least atheists like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Paul Kurtz and others make us think and reason and not just accept ideas on faith.

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» Uh huh Posted by: doodahman
» RE: Uh huh Posted by: Hirnlego

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Olaf Stapledon and "Pious Agnosticism"
Posted by: Human Being on Nov 3, 2009 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's too bad that discussions of religion and spirituality can sometimes be so acrimonious. I have found it helpful to believe that we humans might still be too primitive to fully grapple with the "ultimate questions"--we're good at asking them but not so good at answering them definitively.

That's why I've long admired the writings of Olaf Stapledon, especially his book Star Maker (1937). It is an awesome exposition of his philosophy of "pious agnosticism" that moves far beyond petty dogma (of both the believing and non-believing variety). I recommend it to any thoughtful person.

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the author
Posted by: stuarts on Nov 3, 2009 10:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all one need do is read the title of the Authors book in order to understand the depth of his bias

" Patience With God-Faith For People Who Don't Like Religion (Or Atheism)."

Once again someone passively bashing atheism gets it wrong. It has nothing to do with faith, belief or religion.

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JUST being against something needs MORE
Posted by: Toadmanor on Nov 3, 2009 10:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear from deists "without god, you'll have NO moral rudder" etc.
OK if I have NO dogma or sage whispering in my ear, how do I determine what's right etc??
In fact, how can we even determine the probability of there being supernatural forces unless we use empiricism, the tool of Scientific inquiry?
Should I--steal, well if I haven't eaten in three days and HAVE NO OTHER WAY of getting food AND I'll not be significantly depriving another? I'd say yes. How about abortion? What's the probability of that child being in a nutritive situation if born? The superstitious and political reasons are now more significant than the activity but the actual behavior should be primary: If the woman is unlikely to be able to provide a nutritive environment for the infant, If not, can her health be assured so the infant will be born healthy and will it be likely that it will be adopted to a family able to provide the necessary environment?
Perhaps we need to develop a continually evolving written moral guide which will be a standard that those concerned can refer to, Now to dogmatics, it seems all or none.
Michael Rogers

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The Squealing Fundamentalist Atheist
Posted by: doodahman on Nov 3, 2009 10:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My how you squeal when someone points out the simple, obvious fact that the vocal among you are no damn different than the idiot Christian, Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists that equally try to shove their dogmatic bullshit down the throats of the rest of us. You take a position that cannot be proved and declare it to be an absolute truth and that those who see things differently are either stupid, venal or hell bent on some form of genocide. A pox on both your blighted houses.
My faith is my business, and the commentary here shows a lot of mental problems and unbelievable baggage among both types of fundies-- religious and atheist. Somebody tried to convert you; somebody criticized you for being a sex fiend; somebody excluded you from their company because your non-belief, so everyone who has faith must be cut from the same cloth and punished or vilified.

Har dee har har. Find yourselves some good therapists and STFU.

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A diatribe worthy of Pat Robertson
Posted by: raytheist on Nov 3, 2009 11:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To call atheism "a deranged faith-based personality cult" is not only willfully ignorant, stupid and wrong-headed but despicable. Schaeffer, like almost all religionists, fails (or refuses) to recognize that atheism is not just another religion, any more than health is just another disease.

In my experience, atheists are inveterate non-joiners and individualists with a healthy distrust of any kind of worship, whether of imaginary beings or actual humans. The kind of people who flock around Dawkins are highly atypical and their existence confirms the power of religion in getting people to subscribe to a herd mentality in order to belong to the "right" tribe. I read Dawkins' books because they are well written and entertaining, but I never visit his website because I am turned off by all the commercialism you have to wade through before finding any content.

As for Schaeffer's attack on Hitchens, it is one long irrelevant ad-hominem hatchet job from start to finish, so I needn't dignify it with a response. There is plenty that is loathsome about Hitchens as an individual, but that does not detract from atheism in general.

It always amazes me that after centuries in which organized religion monopolized the debate, as soon as a handful of authors succeed in getting a word in edgewise, there is a wildly disproportionate backlash against them, from moderates like Schaeffer as much as from Neanderthal troglodytes like Bill O'Donohue. To those who call Dawkins et al "fundamentalist" or "militant", how many bombs has Dawkins planted? How many people has he killed?

Even if Dawkins is trying to destroy religion, so what? He is arguing with his words, his intelligence, wit and learning. Any religion that can't stand up to this is a piss-poor religion that doesn't deserve to survive. Meanwhile, the real fundamentalists are "arguing" with suicide bomber vests and car bombs, with cruise missiles and depleted uranium.

Fundamentalist religion poses a huge threat to democracy and peace with its mouth-foaming lunacy and violence. Moderate religionists should be spending every waking minute standing up to this threat and fighting back against the extremists who have hijacked their religion, rather than boo-hooing about nasty old Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens being mean to them.

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there is room and reason for different styles
Posted by: counterpoint on Nov 3, 2009 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is enough room for different styles of arguing against religion. The world is a big place, and arguments look very different depending on a country's culture.
The fact is, that T-shirt quoting Dawkins on the nasty Old Testament god is 100% true.
On Sundays I happen to wear one quoting anthropologist David Eller (author of "Natural Atheism") saying:
When Religion Ruled, they called it the Dark Ages.
You'd be surprised how often I get congratulated for it, it's conversation starter.

There are atheists who keep it to themselves (and maybe donate to Americans United for Separation of Church and State) and there are anti-theists who have seen enough PROOF that religions kills minds and people (not to mention sacrificially tortured animals - kosher, halal) to be active, vocal, and sometimes aggressive.

Different people react differently to their approaches. But I'll tell you that youth, for instance, responds on wavelengths that may seem unsavory to other groups. It can't be avoided, and all approaches have merits and drawbacks.

But please get off your stupid high horse about "commercialism". As if selling books and media were the same as selling beer. Books are a convenient wrapper for ideas, and they have a price. That's okay.

And once you start comparing how many trees are felled to spread sectarian rubbish that consists entirely of made up falsehoods cooked up by religious billion dollar enterprises you should realize that your criticism is hollow.

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OK, explain the "bad"
Posted by: outragedtoo on Nov 3, 2009 11:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In all fairness to Schaeffer, I read all the way through this lengthy piece and what I found were a lot of spiteful and not necessarily accurate character assassinations. It is rather silly to spend so much energy trying to prove that SOME atheists are not very likable people — just like the notorious religious leaders we all know so well.

Yes, it would better PR for atheists to be more gentle and kind and patient toward the people who have suppressed them for centuries. But does that make those who are not so nice as "bad" those who made themselves wealthy by spreading the falsehoods of religion? I don't think so.

The damage done by aggressive proselytizing of fundamentalist faiths can be clearly demonstrated. We don't even have to get into the obvious historical consequences, such as the Inquisition or the Holocaust (a product, in part, of Christian fundamentalism, since that demographic was in Hitler's corner). We can look at the current fundamentalist problem in Islamic countries and our own. Conservative Christians listening to the likes of Falwell and Robertson brought the Bush administration to power — twice — with disastrous results.

Now, please tell me just what damage Hitchens and Dawkins have done that makes them just as "bad." As far as I know, they have not yet caused the destruction of an economy or the needless death of thousands in places like Iraq (to help fulfill biblical prophecy).

OK, so they're not as nice as Schaeffer would like them to be. Neither was the late Madelyn Murray O'Hare, who was brutally murdered by the way. Yet O'Hare freed our school children of a situation even our conservative Supreme Courts came to recognize as a violation of our Constitution. Would we now like to go back to forced prayer in schools? So even "nasty" atheists can be forces of good in the world.

The whole idea of a "fundamentalist atheist," is a strange and inaccurate invention of Christians to begin with.

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"God" is a concept
Posted by: Purple Girl on Nov 3, 2009 11:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we reject the premise assumed at the onset of these discussion that "God" is a "Him" (or any other form of personification), Atheists would have no need to proclaim their disbelief in 'Him',if left undefined as an "It". A cosmic force that maintains some structure, order and functions. That displays similiar 'designs' even between the Macro and micros structures/functions within the realm of all.
Besides when the concept of 'God' is allowed to be highjacked by personifiers, they often portray their god as possessing some of the most loathsome human traits.Jealosy, rage, vengeful. their god won't just punish you, He'll torture you for eternity. In fact he is such a nasty bastard he's not only going to kill and torture humanity, he's going to make the other living creatures suffer as well. That's nothing short of Sadistic.

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» RE: "God" is a concept Posted by: Dboy
» RE: God as the "Word" Posted by: Basenjis
» Most interesting. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "God" is a concept Posted by: reval

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Twisting in the Wind
Posted by: Dboy on Nov 3, 2009 12:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Am enjoying watching the christian industry struggle for relevancy. They have been closely-guarding their flocks so they may continue to shear them (of money, dignity, freedom of thought...). People seem to be waking up to the fact that almost ALL institutions in existence are a sham--government, religious structures, educational system, etc. It can be frightening to realize that we ARE, in fact, responsible for our own lives and our own thoughts and cannot outsource them. Institutions will gladly sell you their services; all they ask for in return is your soul.

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The enemy is fundamentalism, not religion or atheism!
Posted by: avillarrealpouw on Nov 3, 2009 12:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like it so much if objectors to both atheism and religion understand that the real enemy is fundamentalism!

The best predictor of who will become a potential terrorist or an evangelical fundamentalist, or an angry, rude or even violent atheist is not the quality of his beliefs, or the violent passages in his holy book. It is the surroundings where he lives, where he gets friends, the hateful propaganda he receives in every chat with a friend.

I stopped reading this article when I saw the author cannot separate the religion from the terrorist. Maybe, if I read more, I would see that he cannot separate the fundamentalist atheism (like the soviets) from the people who simply have good reasons to prefer all natural explanations instead of the super-natural.

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» No, the real enemies are ... Posted by: Naumadd

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I forgot the opportunity for good joke recycliing
Posted by: nearblindjames on Nov 3, 2009 12:17 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those out there who may not know this one yet.......

Have you heard about the amnesiac, dyslexic agnostic?

He laid awake all night wondering if there really was a dog.

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Dawkins, etc.
Posted by: ah2323 on Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As usual, what is missing from this atrtack on the "New Atheists" is any effort to engage the valid points they make about religion. Schaeffer takes Dawkins and others to task for rudeness, arrogance, cheesy aesthetics; anything to avoid facing the unpleasant but telling pointst that they make. I have no sympathy with the New Atheist POV, but it certainly deserves a more serious and thoughtful treatment than this.

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Failed to Demonstrate Thesis
Posted by: BlueKansas on Nov 3, 2009 12:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, Frank. You have called each of these people "fundamentalists," but you have failed to demonstrate precisely what that is and why they are one. You remind me of people who call Atheism a "religion." As though "bald" could be a hair color...

If you think that depending on EVIDENCE as validation of an assertion is equivalent to "fundamentalism" (the belief that scripture is literally true), I suppose you are painted into the corner where you have to prove your assertion WITHOUT evidence, since to use evidence would be taking the other side's stance... tautology, anyone?

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What triggered the "new atheist" movement ?
Posted by: rational_moderate on Nov 3, 2009 1:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheists, for the most part, were in the closet in the US starting with the McCarthy era when atheism started to be associated with communism. Usually, the separation of church and state has be honored in this country. For example, public schools were generally considered a secular forum. An exception to that is the McCarthy era when religious people forced their beliefs onto others by inserting the "under God" clause into the Pledge of Allegiance which until then had represented the idea of inclusiveness of all Americans. It was also during this time that "In God We Trust" was put on the currency. Perhaps this intrusion of religion planted seeds for the "God is dead" aspect of the hippy movement.
Fast-forward to the last 15 years. The right-wing religious wing of the US populous played a central role in electing GW Bush and enabling him and his cronies to reinforce their kleptocracy. They started a disastrous war and otherwise looted the treasury. Furthermore, the govt. started direct subsidies of churches through the "faith-based charity" programs.
So, is it any wonder that atheists would in recent years start to fight back against a major ideology at the root of destroying our country?

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Mysteries as Solutions
Posted by: Bekker on Nov 3, 2009 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A mystery is not a solution or explanation of anything.

This, I think, is where atheism operating as secular science and the practices of religion part company. Scientists seek a chain of causal effects that can explain an observed succession of events, and physical evidence is the best information that can be employed in such a situation. Religious types use religion to comfort themselves and others. They need not address reality to achieve their goal. Faith suffices for this purpose.

Frank Schaeffer’s candor about fundamentalism and other religions is refreshing, but Schaeffer neglects a recent poll showing 55-percent of religious Americans dislike (or discriminate) against atheists, making atheists even less popular than gays. Before the poll, a kind of live-and-let-live attitude existed among most atheists concerning religion, one which quickly evaporated after the survey was released.

No atheist feels secure in a society where more than half of a randomly chosen group of people sitting on a jury in a court room are likely to discriminate against atheists in a trial proceeding. And no citizen, religious or otherwise, should feel safe in a country that is dumbed down by fundamentalists just to sustain a belief in their legends and mythology. These same misinformed fundamentalists tend to be used by demagogues seeking to enrich themselves at the expense of others, or even the planet (i.e., oil and coal lobby vs. global warming). Or as Hitler was fond of saying, “Isn’t it wonderful that people do not think.”

Speaking of Hitler, Schaeffer should read more Nazi history. Regardless of whether Hitler was religious, he was Machiavellian in his use of religion. He frequently quoted the Bible to justify his pogrom against the Jews. Hitler wanted the social control that religion offered. As a control freak, he made sure that no separation of church and state existed within the German public education system. School prayers for the children were definitely okay. Hitler’s goal, had he lived, was to join religion and the state together into a kind of state sanctioned Nazi religion. Whether he would have succeeded is another issue.

What was clear in Nazi Germany was that the thousands of people who voluntarily carried out Hitler’s orders, the unfeeling animals who ran the work camps, the death camps, those in the police battalions who operated the death marches, considered themselves to be good Lutherans, good Catholics, or good whatever. With the few exceptions that have been mentioned by Frank Shaeffer, religion was generally insufficient to get the Nazis to distinguish between good and evil.

Contrast the Nazi pseudo-scientists and bigoted fundamentalists with the modern science of genetics that has made today’s researchers aware that the concept of race has little or no meaning beyond physical appearance. Homosexuality has been identified as having a genetic basis. It is clear that fundamentalist religions could never have achieved such convincing, evidence-based conclusions. In fact, today’s fundamentalists reject the science of genetics because genetics provides definitive evidence for human evolution.

Given the history of religion, including the history of fascism, it’s no wonder atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens get so worked up. Some may disagree with their approach, but the authors’ ultimate goal is to educate the world against barbarism, while in many situations the goal of religion has been to preserve and coddle man’s inhumanity to man.

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New Atheist?
Posted by: Doubtom43 on Nov 3, 2009 2:32 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is it that defines a new atheist-- is it the decision to finally attack the religious pukes who have been impugning the old atheists forever?

To say that atheists, new or old, are similar to the fundamentalists, demeans the atheists and unduly elevates the fundamentalists. One is guided by reason, the other by myth.

If the atheists are finally coming out of their shells and showing some irritation at being marginalized by the religious wackos who speak to god daily, it is long overdue and welcomed by this old atheist.

To reiterate, All religion is pure bullshit and its purveyors are bullshit artists. That is ALL anyone needs to know about religion.

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» RE: New Atheist? Posted by: jaded
» RE: New Atheist? Posted by: Doubtom43
» RE: New Atheist? Posted by: nearblindjames
» RE: New Atheist? Posted by: Doubtom43

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Who Really Knows?
Posted by: liblady2008 on Nov 3, 2009 2:49 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The category that IMHO should fit all of us in Agnostic - because nobody has any sure proof about anything absolute.

That said all that is, as far as I can see, had to come from someone or something. It had to have been started and I don't mean 5,000 years ago.

I'm just not dead sure what or who is/was behind the whole thing - and I'm not sure how anyone else can be either, from dead sure atheists to the most fervent holy rollers.

I know this - it is dead certain that many millions have been killed for not believing what others believe and that is beyond ridiculous.

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» A Curious Distinction Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: A Curious Distinction Posted by: GEM-592
» RE: Who Really Knows? Posted by: Naumadd

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So What?
Posted by: leafsong1 on Nov 3, 2009 4:33 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not like there's a "Curch of New Atheism" or something. Atheists are not joiners and followers. So what if they are selling books?

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Religion was created by the Devil
Posted by: mike_burns on Nov 3, 2009 4:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It exists to answer all questions that science is unable to answer. At one time, mechanization was explained with the power of angels or elves.
There are still unanswered questions that science needs to explain. That does not mean there is a true religious explanation. History tells us religion has been wrong on every issue.
Religion gives people a false self-perception that believers have become holy and superior to none believers. The truth is opposite. Because of their miss beliefs, they commit more evil and do not have to have the feelings of guilt a none believer would feel. Their holiness and piety makes them refuse to see the results of their actions.
Of course atheists can do wrong, but I trust our natural abilities of empathy over a big lie.
The worse thing about religion is their belief in an after-life justice. This is a belief that lets the truly evil get away with their crimes (Dick Chaney). The truly evil uses religion to keep us from seeking justice in this world. The only justice in this world or the next is the justice we create ourselves here.
People like Dick Chaney get away with his crimes by believing he will get his in the after-life. All this does is lets him get away with it. Without religion, we would have him in prison, now.
I say go, go, go, to the new atheists. If fire must be fought with fire, so be it. The market features should not be an issue. All movements need money.
I say to all atheists to keep fighting the good fight of truth.

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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Posted by: SickOfSophistry on Nov 3, 2009 4:49 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All you oh-so-reasonable atheists should already know that. It's the logical fallacy of the argumentum ad ignorantiam: I've never seen a zebra, therefore zebras don't exist.

What's more, when Dawkins claims "I require evidence," he's leaving unstated an essential underlying assumption: For a materialist, evidence means physical evidence, because (for a materialist) "Only the physically measurable or quantifiable is real." Obviously, no one of any faith tradition is claiming that God is a physical being. So materialist-scientistic atheists are ruling that the only kind of evidence that's admissible is precisely the kind that can't possibly prove the theistic point.

It's a circular, question-begging line of "reasoning" and just as intellectually dishonest as the sophistic proof-texting arguments used by the Pat Robertsons and John Hagees of the world to "prove" that the Bible is inerrant and factually accurate. In other words, he's "as bad" as they are, at least in that respect.

And it certainly disproves the claim many are making in these comments that "atheism equals reason, religion equals unreason." It's a bad habit in Western culture, and an imperialistic one, to assume that "we" are the rational people and "they" are irrational and need our calm, scientific, Northern European guidance. Not that any famous geneticist would espouse anything resembling racism.

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» RE: Thank you for proving my point Posted by: SickOfSophistry
» True, to a point Posted by: Naumadd
» RE: True, to a point Posted by: stillaltered
» RE: True, to a point Posted by: GEM-592

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I Agree
Posted by: Bushmaster on Nov 3, 2009 6:21 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first time I came in contact with Dawkins I understood him the same way you do. I also am a recovered fundamentalist Christian and I recognized his technique in a flash.

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ATHEISM = BULLSHIT
Posted by: aberdeen on Nov 3, 2009 6:30 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» ATHEISM = BETTER THINKING Posted by: Naumadd

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ATHEISM = BULLSHIT
Posted by: aberdeen on Nov 3, 2009 6:30 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: ATHEISM = BULLSHIT Posted by: daniel1982
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The language of argument
Posted by: haywoodwhy on Nov 3, 2009 6:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe that there is a planet circling alpha centauri that has a population of intelligent, pink tailed, purple, puddy tats. Yeah sure! It is really easy to argue about unanswerable beliefs, but neither side has anything to throw at the so called discussion but loaded symbols. Belief in anything is a fully loaded argument waiting to happen for no other reason than two folks with opposing beliefs getting together and fighting about it. That's all it is too, just a stupid fight over nothing. Belief is just a convenient metaphor for 'lazy thinking'. Isn't it strange that you do not find people arguing about whether there is actually a processor or not inside of a computer? Maybe god is doing all of the computing and it is just a solid chunk of metal...Oh no, people will not go there because it can be so easily checked for validity. But not so these big questions...Is there a god?
Belief is plain and simply the route that humans frequently take to accept as true the words of certain comforting authority's. Knowledge, like the knowledge of science, and belief, like the faith of believer's, is like oil and water.
When you attempt to mix the reality's of science and the scientific method with the tenements of religion, you are mixing what is real with what does not exist.That takes work. There will be much turmoil and argument.
When humans learn to use their own language in an intelligent and compassionate manner we will leave war far behind.

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Beliefs are not intensely personal
Posted by: sherry on Nov 3, 2009 6:48 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One writer said beliefs are "intensely personal." No, they are social constructs. In a family of five we don't find a mixture of Islam, fundamentalist Protestanism, some sort of liberation thelogy Catholism, Judaism, and a totally new religion the last person made up all on his own. In fact, it would be difficult to find such a mixture on any street anywhere on the planet.

Beliefs are geographically and culturally clustered, and ironically the only category that crosses all geographic and cultural boundaries is the resistance to belief. The article and many of the comments pit atheism against Christianity, but there are non-believers, resisters of indoctrination, inside all the belief cultures.

Resisting the indoctrination, ironically, is intensely personal, at least initially, because of the fear of acknowledging your refusal to go along with the dominant culture.

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THe problem, is belief. And yes, that includes the "belief in nothing"
Posted by: rickiey on Nov 3, 2009 7:37 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evil is perpetrated religiously by those who believe, whether they believe in Christ, Mohammed, or believe that there is no god.

It is those who do not believe in any of the above that can actually make peace in our world.

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Franks problem.
Posted by: fc7711 on Nov 3, 2009 8:16 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The way I see it is this, Franks problem is that he left fundamentalism but he still believes in the whole silly God notion. He didn't really "quit" having irrational beliefs, he just changed FLAVORS from Extra-Nutty, to just plain Nutty. So , of course his feelings are going to be hurt because of the critiques. What you have to understand is this Frank :
: At the end of the day, you either believe in crazy shit or you don't. You choose to. The pain that the New Atheists are causing you is really Cognitive Dissonance.
As far as I'm concerned religion has zero value, if for no other reason than it's all made up .

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» RE: Franks problem. Posted by: Naumadd

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They brought it on themselves
Posted by: billslm on Nov 4, 2009 2:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The religionists like the Pentacostals, Fundamentalists, and the Evangelicals who writhe and roll their eyes at the mention of birth control, the right to choose, homosexuality, gay marriage, Democratic Socialism and Liberalism, really brought about the backlash of atheism themselves. Did they think they would be able to throw their weight around forever without challenge of their perilously empty foundations?

Finally, however, the conservatives can only say: God exists because I need Him to exist!

That is the entire foundation of the religionist. They may claim more--- but the hard evidence is smaller than they imagine. The literalist interpretation of the Bible smacks of a forthright chin looking for a jaw-shattering fist to put it in its place. The New Atheism is that fist.

I wrote a strong critique of Levitcus last night, saying that Leviticus was not inspired writing, but was rather a primitive codex pertaining to a no longer viable desert culture. It merely sought to confirm and reify a social ordering based on local custom, mores and folkways. Leviticus speaks not of God, or from God, but of the social order.

AOL never allowed my critique to be published on the boards. If the only way you can maintain your religion is by silencing dissent, you are on extremely shaky ground. Atheism, once invoked by the red-neck Christians, will answer conservative religion in its own terms. Dawkins and Hitchens exactly mirror and balance the dogmatic conservative religionists.

Epicurus made 4 statements about God which remain:

1. If God is willing but not able to prevent evil from being in the world, then he is not omnipotent.

2. If God is able but not willing to prevent evil from being in the world, then he is malevolent.

3. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil from being in the world, then whence comes evil?

4. If God is neither willing nor able to prevent evil from being in the world, then why call him god?

Epicurus was writing about the Sun God, whose cult was five hundred years earlier that Jesus.

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More like a whiney little
Posted by: leland61 on Nov 4, 2009 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
b*tch than anything else.

Frank still has a lot of baggage left from his fundie days and it shows in this article. The fact is that he doesn't like "in your face" atheists. But those that are prepared to make nice and not call religious superstition exactly what it is, he doesn't like. Too Bad!!!

Atheists have had to put up with the crap from religious types and their apologists long enough. Now it is time to hold the feet of religious superstition to the fire of reason and science - let 'em scream a little - maybe they'll see the light (or at least feel the heat).

Having embraced the light of reason and science rather late in life and having become a "born again" atheist in the process of dealing with all of the contradictions inherent in any sort of religion, I'm so happy to be in the company of Dennett, Hawkins, Hitchens, and the others who are exposing the roots of superstition and ignorance that I feel as good as a tornado in a trailer park.

Darwin bless 'em all.

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Progressive believer
Posted by: Blackfeetboy on Nov 4, 2009 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It saddans me to see so much intolerance on the site, even though it's totally understandable. When you look at how the right has turned God into some Gun owning, Neo-liberal, frothing-at-the-mouth pile of conservative pus; you can't help but understand Progressives revultion at the idea of a higher power. I'm a LIBERAL and a beliver. I don't believe in an old man with a white beard sitting on a cloud; but I do believe in a higher power. Ther are things in this universe that science cannot explain. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. If you don't believe in God..great... you don't have to. The thing that makes us superior to RebubliCANTS is our ability to accept. Let's all stick together, and make sure these right-wing wackos don't give the whole circus away.

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» RE: Progressive believer Posted by: Balance40

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Honesty
Posted by: mike_burns on Nov 4, 2009 4:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I decided to become an atheist after my second heart attack.
If there is a god and I was going to die as a religious person, I would be dieing with a lie.
I choose to worship truth. If there is a god against truth, then that is not a real god. I will finish this world in purity. If I am sent to a hell for purity, then the whole thing is illogical.
Truth is the only real God. Religious writings of man were methods of men to control other men to do evil.
Of you who want the true salvation and eternal life, seek and worship truth (atheism).
We need an anti-religion, religion.
Truth will give you a legacy of a better world for our children.
If a mansion of gold is what I get for committing evil in this world, they can stick it up their ass.
I would rather see the children of the world fed. The Catholic Church could do that, but they love afterlife greed over the needs of children.
I am an atheist and I am ready to die with a pure heart.

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» RE: Honesty Posted by: abstractedaway

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Religion is only as good or bad as the people who use it
Posted by: Changling on Nov 4, 2009 8:59 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a biological impulse and without Atheism the fanaticism would still be growing toward a new world religious war. Atheists like these so-called new ones are just deciding to push back as hard as they feel they have been pressed to them. I disagree with them on that.

Considering we are out numbered by billions it isn't prudent or logical. We should be making bridges, not burning them before they are even lain. We need allies not more enemies.

From what I can determine from the evidence it is an evolutionary trait and as evolution is always putting out different traits in order to survive if the environment should suddenly change and the random ability could become dominate and useful whereas before it was recessive and of no real use. Like Atheism in this case. Think about it. Trilobites are gone but roaches still remain even after three previous extinctions.

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Too much sarcasm, not enough substance. Perspective check needed.
Posted by: abstractedaway on Nov 4, 2009 10:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, I read paragraph after paragraph about the subject I'm most familiar with, that being Richard Dawkins, and I just couldn't see that anything was particularly wrong except in your eyes. It boiled down to bitter sarcasm instead of reasoned disagreement. I am quite disappointed.

Frankie, your book and your biography would suggest that you're aware of the abusive potential of religion. The more authoritarian they are, the more dangerous they are. You need only watch Jesus Camp to get a taste for where that goes. Couple that fevered zeal with a system that drills into children's brains that they are inherently bad and need to say prayers not to go to hell, and you've decoupled them from reality. The real lessons of life get muddled up, lost in the abstraction.

This is an inherently dangerous system of thought. It's fundamentally dishonest to assert that you know something you don't, on grounds you couldn't use to get out of a traffic ticket to claim certainties about who's headed for heaven or hell. It's a sham. If you think you have a divine mandate for anything you can quote a few scriptures for, you can have fierce force for most anything you want.

I know. Personal anecdote: I had one very religious stepfather corner me with a bat when I was a child "in the name of Jesus", amongst countless other cases of abuse. I am now redundantly diagnosed with PTSD about what he did. The churches repeatedly told me to submit to him anyway, to forgive him "seventy times seven", to blame the devil and not him, until I gave them a shove and found my voice in court to fight him. In the meantime, he worked with youth groups, to the shock of people in the know. Why? Because spouting some simple points of creed meant that he had to be a good person, in the church's eyes!

Goodness is not congruent with creed.

I repeat, goodness is not congruent with creed.

I want the new atheists to speak out, because the crazy religionists have been speaking all along and screwing up people's ideas about what's right and wrong, good and bad. I'm not saying mythology is bad, or the presence of non-extreme religion is inherently bad. They're benign and beautiful as metaphor. It's fundamentalism that's blowing smoke over the business of learning a decent human being, and while some atheists fail at it too, at least their failures are individual, not systemic.

Please review your subjective skew about *why* you felt you had to write this.

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A wonderland, museum or Disney?
Posted by: kural on Nov 5, 2009 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting that Dennet should suggest turning places of worship like the Vatican and the Mecca into museums or amusement parks. We Hindus did that a few 1000 years ago, and almost everyone of our mandir/kovil is a place to meet, greet, and let the mind wander free. I would suggest everyone watch the video of Anthony Bourdain's visit to the Ganesh Mandir in Flushing, Queens, and his experience with a vegetarian repast. I would be happier if the Vatican or Mecca didn't remind me that in their eyes, I am headed for hell and damnation - not that I care - but still it matters. As for atheists or anyone else, all are welcome, just leave your shoes outside and be mindful of the others therein. Cheers!

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what about the social science perspective on religion?
Posted by: jimbomn82 on Nov 5, 2009 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of these authors approach the subject from a "hard science" perspective, as it were...evolutionary biology or whatever.

I think we're sorely missing the input from sociologists and anthropologists and the like who study religion from a social science perspective, which is significantly different and arguably better.

Even if Dennett and Hitchens and Harris and Dawkins aren't perfect, I am glad that we now have these outspoken public or professional atheists to create dialogue and get people thinking and to question things that have long been considered taboo, but I think the discourse would greatly benefit from the perspectives of the social sciences.

So I guess my question is...where is the social science equivalent to The God Delusion? Or who's going to write it?

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Religion-definition
Posted by: Dr T on Nov 5, 2009 6:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion, n - a collection of ancient myths and superstitions wrapped in delusions.

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These New Atheists are also very islamophobic
Posted by: qwertyu on Nov 6, 2009 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..that is what is missing from this article.

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» Yes, I am (aren't you?) Posted by: rational_moderate

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Gotten a knock on your door?
Posted by: crowepps on Nov 6, 2009 2:32 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I certainly haven't had any 'new atheists' knocking on my door and interrupting my dinner to ask me if I've given up on the idea of God. Of course, maybe they couldn't get through the crowd of fundamentalist Baptists, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists who DO knock on my door.

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Dawkins and Hitchens are Assertive, Humorous without fundamentalism
Posted by: PeaceRecruiterLarry on Nov 7, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sell Dennett books if you will Frank, but quit pissing on real Atheists.

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Hitchens and Dawkins are Fundamentalists
Posted by: TonyWicher on Nov 7, 2009 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitchens, Dawkins and their ilk call themselves "sceptics" but their atheism is a narrow-minded dogmatism equal and opposite to the narrow-minded fundamentalism they reject. I was raised an atheist and used to go around making the same atheist arguments to my little friends when I was eight years old. I lost my atheist faith somewhere in college, and my mind is now open to the fascinating study of all the religions of the world. There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in the philosophy of these bigoted anti-Bible thumpers.

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Evangelical Atheism
Posted by: Vexact on Nov 7, 2009 4:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What's wrong with evangelizing atheism? We need some campmeeting ranting and chanting. We need some born-again Atheists out spreading the truth.

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Expressing opinion is hardly "militant"
Posted by: Naumadd on Nov 7, 2009 7:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On the question of whether there is or there is not an alleged "supernatural" and an alleged "supreme ruler" of it all, theists and atheists can't both be right. One or the other is true. Thus far, fact and logical reasoning are on the side of the atheistic view and theists are incapable of supporting their beliefs. Never mind the fence-sitting agnostics who are unwilling to take a proper stand in favor of fact and logical reasoning to decide what is and what is not true about theist claims which is all that's at issue.

One thing is certain, to equate the "new atheist" with the theistic fundamentalist is a gross misunderstanding of both. It isn't the atheist proclaiming theistic belief on coinage or attempting to impose the alleged commandments of a very limited and specialized worldview into publicly-owned places, it isn't the atheist making unwarranted proclamations the U.S., a secular nation, is "one under god", it isn't the atheist interfering in the personal reproductive choices of others, it isn't the atheist frothing to deny homosexuals the basic right to associate with and marry whomever they choose, it isn't the atheist hinting that women ought to be denied the right to vote or a voice in human affairs, it isn't the atheist dividing the races into "chosen" and "unchosen", it isn't atheists planting bombs, wearing bombs or flying aircraft into buildings, it isn't atheists continually engaged in "holy" wars, it isn't atheists stockpiling for some mythical "Armageddon", it isn't the atheist flinching at every natural catastrophe as though it's the apocalypse.

The list could go on, but I trust you get the point. The atheist, new or otherwise, doesn't and never will equate to a theist fundamentalist, no matter how vocal they become in favor of a more reasonable worldview.

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Pure tripe!
Posted by: Bibsisis on Nov 7, 2009 9:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This writer poses ridiculous opinions. Atheists cannot be compared to the likes of Pat Robertson, et.al, since atheists have no god or theology. Atheists have been quiet far too long--they do not proselytize or try to convert people to their way of thought.

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wow, what an ass.
Posted by: americancontragenic on Nov 8, 2009 2:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh and BTW way, dude you are such a complete asshole I cannot even begin to express my disgust.I get the feeling from your post that you are in serious need of validation, maybe there is a xian knok off organization that would welcome your comments.Damn I wish I could reach through the internet and hi five your face.

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what an ass.
Posted by: americancontragenic on Nov 8, 2009 3:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ill informed and completely ignorant of fact, this is the kind of journalism that can be found on Fox broadcasting. Pathetic at best, dude please quit before you finish digging your grave.Every day I encounter stupid and stupid x12, trust me when I tell you that ther is no more validity in your post that that of Glenn Beck. I weep for the future of my country and the influence of the Wal-Mart trash like you.

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Where are these athiests?
Posted by: lalala on Nov 8, 2009 7:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I never see any athiests. I wish people were more vocal about it but especially I never see any religious or spiritual alternatives to Christianity. Oh well atleast for the most part most of us are secular humanists

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Atheists get a bad rap
Posted by: andrtnnr on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheists generally get a bad rap. We are evil, going to hell, immoral, etc., etc. While I totally understand this author's point of view and I agree with what he is saying, I am also at the point I am sick of being discriminated against in this country. So many of our laws and practices are based on Christian thought as absolute and correct (alcohol purchase on Sundays, sodomy, anti-gay marriage prohibitions, 10 Commandment fights, Christmas displays on public land, other church and state separation issues, the list goes on and on).

So with that backdrop, knowing that many atheists are scared to "come out" as atheist (yes it is a real fear within some communities or families--let me tell you of the times I have been cornered and threatened without starting the conversation because of what I was wearing or what people overheard me discussing), I am okay with someone like Dawkins pushing the envelope. It gives us a seat at the conversation table.

I think Dawkins and this author alike will encourage more atheists to come out and join the conversation. Perhaps more atheists will speak to this author's liking. And I can only hope that in my lifetime it will be okay to be atheist, just like it is okay to be Christian in this country. So far, writing to my senators/representatives, voting, and being an activist have not done enough to change the status quo about us.

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Looks like Frank is right about intolerance of "fundamentalists"
Posted by: stillaltered on Nov 9, 2009 7:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems that well over half, maybe as much as 80% of the atheists who responded to Frank simply proved his point. And, when he writes in the same manner about the religious zealots the response is the same tone in similar percentages.

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Oh here we go again
Posted by: mkbilbo on Nov 10, 2009 12:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...my late father Francis Schaeffer was a fundamentalist guru to millions in the 1970s and 80s and a leading founder of the Religious Right."

Yeah, Spanky, it shows.

(And if you wanna play "wave your former fundie creds around", well, *I'm* a couple of generations away from Darby hisownself. My sect *invented* fundamentalism. So there! *snarf*)

What a boring, droning, extended ad hom you've produced. At least you warn us near the beginning that's all you got. As in here:

"...it's just as legitimate to ask about the characters of the people pointing out religious people’s moral faults ad naming names."

Yea, verily, we gotta weigh the character of the prophets, test the spirits doncha know? But at least Your Holiness shows us The Way and gives Your Blessing to Dennett. Let us rejoice and praise Your Name.

A multipage ad hom screed and you have the nerve to talk about the arrogance of others? Wow. That's impressive. That's... very fundie of you.

Yeah, you heard me. As another former fundie, two things are *glaringly* obvious in your screed. You haven't shaken it off. And you're having a whopper of a fear reaction.

Fundamentalism *is* based in fear. You know that.

You're still afraid. You're simply running around making frantic hand gestures and whispering harshly, "Don't piss off the crazy people!!!"

That's one reason you try--ever so lamely--to savage Dawkins. He's smart. Far smarter than you'll ever be. And he's eloquent. See previous snark. He scares the bejeebus out of you.

Fundamentalism hurt you. You're afraid they'll hurt you again. So you run about trying to shut everybody up, hoping futilely that if we all sit real quiet, the bullies will pass us by.

I could almost pity you. Almost.

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Fundamentalism: What it really is
Posted by: tastybrains on Nov 29, 2009 8:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Schaeffer's comments on Dawkins do nothing except twist his words and insert his own interpretation into the tone of what Dawkins wrote. None of his opinions about Dawkins actually show fundamentalism anyway. I suppose if wearing an Atheist pin is evidence of being a fundamentalist then anyone who wears a baseball cap with their favorite team's logo on it is also one. If selling something on your own website makes you a fundamentalist, then Schaeffer had better start pointing the finger at a lot of other people too.

Dawkins has shown himself to be very respectful of people even when they prove closeminded. If he seems arrogant then his arrogance is subdued.

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Aandrea99
Posted by: aandrea99 on Nov 30, 2009 9:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I do support and commend Mr. Schaeffer’s exposing the danger to democracy by the Radical Religious Right, I must comment on his article regarding the “New Atheists.” Mr. Schaeffer’s indignation appears to come from his perception that the “New Atheists” are certain that there is no god (although I have read both The God Delusion and God is Not Great, and there is no indication of absolute certainty on either the part of Dawkins or Hitchens, which is only proper since those scientifically-minded who are in the mainstream would never make claims for absolute knowledge).

But if I were to ask Mr. Schaeffer if he believed leprechauns had a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, would he be just as certain as he believes Dawkins and Hitchens to be that these prosperous little beings didn’t exist? And in that case, do we have license to be outraged with him for that certainty?

Since the default position is that there is no god because there is no indication one exists, one must follow one of logic's most basic tenets, which is that the burden of proof is on the asserter. Aren’t the so-called “New Atheists” and other such rational persons just operating within the confines of logic?

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Still Has Value
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 3, 2009 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe in God(s) but I do happen to think there are valuable moral and ethical lessons to be gleaned from religion(s). Our task as a modern society is indeed to separate the toxic elements from the elements that will make the world a better place.

I don't agree with dismissing religious thought out of hand because it's supposedly antiquated. This is thousands of years of tradition, culture and history that can't just be overlooked.

My hope is that we can distill religion's most valuable lessons down to new cultural traditions that are positive and inclusive, removing the impurities. A new vodka for the soul!

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Still Has Value
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 3, 2009 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe in God(s) but I do happen to think there are valuable moral and ethical lessons to be gleaned from religion(s). Our task as a modern society is indeed to separate the toxic elements from the elements that will make the world a better place.

I don't agree with dismissing religious thought out of hand because it's supposedly antiquated. This is thousands of years of tradition, culture and history that can't just be overlooked.

My hope is that we can distill religion's most valuable lessons down to new cultural traditions that are positive and inclusive, removing the impurities. A new vodka for the soul!

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» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: rock

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Still Has Value
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 3, 2009 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe in God(s) but I do happen to think there are valuable moral and ethical lessons to be gleaned from religion(s). Our task as a modern society is indeed to separate the toxic elements from the elements that will make the world a better place.

I don't agree with dismissing religious thought out of hand because it's supposedly antiquated. This is thousands of years of tradition, culture and history that can't just be overlooked.

My hope is that we can distill religion's most valuable lessons down to new cultural traditions that are positive and inclusive, removing the impurities. A new vodka for the soul!

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» RE: Still Has Value Posted by: InsertNameHere

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Sorry but the author of this is highly insulting, arrogant, and terrified of Dawkins!
Posted by: thinks4herself2008 on Nov 3, 2009 1:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I may not agree with everything Richard Dawkins states, but I admire and appreciate him. He has always been more than respectful when debating some rather annoying and even rude people. Hey, if you don't like Dawkins, don't go to his website or read his books or watch his videos (which were fantastic by the way and highly informative!), but please don't throw him under the bus for all of us who do respect him.

Second, I have been on Professor Dawkins' website and enjoyed his videos about various species, etc., and I hardly think I'm a "deluded (not terribly bright) follower" and find the author of this to be the one who is arrogant and a little too full of himself. I guess it's difficult to let go of being a big shot or the son of a big shot, but you are not speaking for a vast many of us out here and are a bit out of touch.

Why is Professor Dawkins so under the skin anyway? Could it be he hits the nail on the head, and there's enough residual religious indoctrination that the author is more than a wee bit uncomfortable? Letting go of the BS is hard to do.

Religions are weighty and deeply rooted with an overwhelming number of churches and faiths, etc., in the USA. We need ALL voices: Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, etc. They each bring something of value to the table.

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» You just failed the smell test Posted by: bingahaba

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Outspoken atheists, blah blah
Posted by: cary on Nov 3, 2009 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello?

They're not dogmatic, they're not closed-minded. That's the opposite of science and rationality.

They require evidence to back up extraordinary claims. Religion has none.

They accurately point out how religion informs and is used to justify some of the most immoral and despicable behaviors in the world today.

The only reason you're worked up about them deriding religion is because its religion. As if religious ideas should somehow not be subject to the same critique as other ideas.

I can think of nothing more dangerous than to exempt from criticism a class of ideas that so pervasively informs public policy. If Bush had claimed Zeus supported the invasion of Iraq he would have been publicly and universally lambasted, but because he invoked the Christian God, for whose existence we have exactly no objective evidence, there was only a small hue and cry.

And you ask if outspoken atheism is as dangerous as Christian fundamentalism. Good grief, get some perspective.

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» Straw Man!!! Posted by: Karlh

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Christianity needs convenient enemies...
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 3, 2009 3:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
be it Commies, gays, and now (gasp) godless atheists...
something to rally the ranks with and try to stave off those declining memberships.

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Long winded.
Posted by: daniel_t on Nov 3, 2009 3:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, a 9 page long ad hominem attack.

If you don't like Dawkins or Hitchens as people, fine but you don't have to bring up atheism to do that... Unless it's atheism itself that you are trying to smear.

And don't give me that, "but their doing it too!" Didn't you ever learn that two wrongs don't make a right?

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» Nine-pages Pedantic of Word Vomit Posted by: moloko velocet
» Are you on mind altering drugs? Posted by: bingahaba

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handmjones
Posted by: handmjones on Nov 3, 2009 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would be wonderful if the, I think vast majority of us, who believe in the good influence of the church, but do not believe the books of the various religions are other than the works of man, would come out of the closet.

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» RE: handmjones Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: handmjones Posted by: garblesnatchy

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Atheism is not another cult.
Posted by: batmagoo on Nov 3, 2009 4:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Theists tend to use the word "atheist" as if to describe another fringe belief system - another lunatic club...A veiled attempt at implying parity - as if all theories are equally valid, including that "nutty" evolution theory and all beliefs have equal merit, including those "atheist folk," with their nihilism nonsense.
Make no mistake about it: there is no such thing as atheism. As Richard Dawkins rightly calls it, there is reason and there are enemies of reason. This has been so since the birth of mankind. Today, reasonable people are polite enough to refrain from belaboring the fact theists used to burn witches and people who believed that the Earth is round.
We have quietly ceased referring to the many aberrations of our less than glorious past, and are merely trying to deal with present insanity.
Given the passing of enough time, reason eventually grows, but only in hindsight.

Atheists and reasonable people in fact deserve as much respect and tax breaks as the religious, for their contribution to our survival is greater.

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» Atheists deserve tax breaks too. Posted by: eddie torres
» Flat Earth? Posted by: suprmark

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It sounds Arrogant..ignorant...only if your superstitious
Posted by: majr17440 on Nov 3, 2009 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Each time i have a conversation with someone and it they're answer is "well god made it that way" or "We'll its in gods hands" i wanna slap the person. Theism provides people a comfort yes....but a comfort that allows for the stagnation of our people... we didn't have federal funding for stem cells during bush because an embryo has a soul, and ever sperm is sacred...our planet is overpopulated because god made our wants us to work, have sex and worship him....multiply and prosper...the pope tells Africans condoms help the spread of aids. Honestly Hitchens needs to raise his voice. I know this post wont get high ratings...."god forbid" lol. But the world will be a much better place when israel, mecca, and every holy site is obliterated dust, and people can remember the teachings of these fine men...jesus, buddha, Confucius, krishna were.. men who were slightly crazed but really cared about humanity. And im pretty sure all taught one common thing LOVE THE MAN TO YOUR RIGHT, AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE LOVED. Meaning our happiness is dependent on the happiness of those around us.

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Inclusionary and Exclusionary
Posted by: sunnywater on Nov 3, 2009 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As regards atheism and theism , both create a unique variety of stresses born of the actual demands caused by living within the terms stipulated by cultural paradigms.

The impact of religion on society in this case are including the impact of society on religion, in that those societies which choose to stringently limit the parameters a paradigm of their members tend in fact to embrace equally stringent and limiting religious concepts.

Those societies where there is a wider concept regarding religions, the religions themselves tend to expand as it were in a reciprocal manner to the social conditions.

When many societies converge in either a single place or a single frame of reference, occasionally the result is on comprehension and inclusion, but that only occurs when society and religion both accommodate such inclusion.

When limited societies and exclusionary societies experience the same interaction, there is a dramatic increase in the degree and types of exclusion carried on and the folkloric supports of exclusion comes to the fore, as the inclusionary folkloric supports come to the fore under the aegis of social inclusion.

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Atheists Have Religious Friends.
Posted by: melpol on Nov 3, 2009 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some Atheists would not protest if every religious leader was hanged and houses of worship closed. They also believe that the bible was written by men that were insane. But most Atheists have friends that are believers and keep their friendship alive by never discussing religious views.

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» RE: Atheists Have Religious Friends. Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair

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Your entire premise is flawed
Posted by: Squally on Nov 3, 2009 4:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're saying that it's OK to attack the "New Atheists" rather than their arguments because they do the same. However, they don't do that and even if they did it doesn't make your argument any more valild.

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» Where was this premise made? Posted by: bingahaba

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A Distinction
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 3, 2009 4:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People often have strong opinions and, at least in principle, the American tradition is to welcome expression of these opinions. There is nothing at all wrong with forcefully arguing your own point of view whether at the dinner table or in print.

Where people cross over the line is when they try to force others to live by their own opinions. When anti-choice groups try to subvert current law by intimidating people they cross that line. When a group tries to block election of an atheist to office, that too crosses the line. When a group tries to subvert the teaching of evolution that too crosses the line.

I would give some examples of atheists crossing this line, but I really don't know of any. Perhaps the author can provide some.

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No. New atheists are not as bad as Christian fundamentalists.
Posted by: Vinkenoog on Nov 3, 2009 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a weirdly convoluted article. Here's the difference between "New" Atheists and Christian fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists are dogmatically defending things that can't possibly be proved. Atheists are defending reality.

Gee, it's so shocking that after thousands of years of religious fundamentalism causing wars that kill hundreds of thousands or in some cases millions of people, non-believers might get a little spooked and tell people to knock it off. I couldn't care less if they mention their website in the process.

Ooh, Richard Dawkins is making money off his atheism. Really? Has he made enough to build a Crystal Cathedral yet? Is he getting a monthly stipend from grandma's social security? Comparing him to the Christian fundamentalists that have been ripping off the poor for decades in order to be "blessed" is a crock.

I don't blame Richard Dawkins for wanting to make noise about this. We atheists have been marginalized and even victimized for too long. It took until 2008 for a US President to even mention that we exist.

Atheists are the latest group to come out of the closet and it's difficult. I don't need anyone comparing me to a fundamentalist Christian. I pussyfoot around believers just like every other atheist does and I commend those that have the guts not to.

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» RE: No. Posted by: IntlDad

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Enablers
Posted by: jmmartin on Nov 3, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frank Schaeffer is the religious equivalent of an enabler. By putting down the "New Atheists" (atheists are atheists; there is noting new in these writers' message), he enables the far right wing nutjobs like Hagee and Parsley to get away with their shenanigans. I read Schaeffer's biography. I was led to be lieve he would spill the beans on the megachurches and televangelists. I was terribly disappointed.

Schaeffer can say what he wants about Harris, Dennett, Dawkins, and Hitchens, but nothing he says will prove the existence of "God," a concept he stubbornly continues to cherish. He is just as deluded as all the rest.

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NO, you shut up
Posted by: hms2004 on Nov 3, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Schaefer, your 9-page diatribe can be summarized into 2 words: "Shut up!" That is your message to atheists. You're just another religious tool trying to muzzle atheists. I may not agree with everything Dawkins or Hitchens has to say but I applaud their willingness to put themselves out there and argue our side in this debate. There has to be some voice for the sane people in this world. Your article also completely fails to demonstrate how the so-called 'new atheists' are alike to religious fundamentalists. Are the new atheists flying planes into buildings? Are they trying to influence the legislative process? Are they trying to control high school science curricula? No they are not. They are just presenting their ideas in the marketplace. I think what really pisses you off though is the fact that Dawkins, Hitchens, and Sam Harris can sell more books than you by appealing to reason. You're upset that more and more Americans are looking behind the curtain and rejecting your false god. No sir, we will not be quiet.

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» RE: book sales Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: book sales Posted by: hms2004

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freethinker54
Posted by: freethinker54 on Nov 3, 2009 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are the new atheists like the x-tian fundamentalists? Um, no. A fundamentalist will not change his/her mind with evidence. Richard Dawkins will "believe" in gods if you present him with evidence. Frank Schaeffer is desperate to hold on to at least parts of his fairy tales. His "arguments" are silly and full of holes. I like Daniel Dennett, Hitchens, Dawkins, Sam Harris--all have different styles. I think Schaeffer is just jealous.

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I believe this discussion is always dishonest
Posted by: Beck on Nov 3, 2009 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These arguments are always basically dishonest. The problem isn't what religious belief consists of, whether it's true or false, it's that people are trying to walk right into the heads of others and for some bizarre and controlling reason, CHANGE them. No one has any more right to do this, and no one is any more normal for even being interested in it, than you have a right to walk into my living room and critique my furniture, or try to get me to buy the car you like.

The problem is always presented this way: is religion true, or isn't it? But that point of discussion could not come up without this underlying belief: does anyone have the right to decide others need influenced, then proceed to do so, aside from what that individual requests or desires? I say that no one has this right, that this is one of the main criticisms of religions in general, yet many of the articles and a vast number of the comments display exactly that desire: to find and influence people religiously, people who didn't ask for it and don't want the input. Evolution is always included, as if that's what atheism is always all about, and as if NO religious people believe in it, and all religious people fight it. Obviously, none of these are true.

The recent atheist articles could not have been written without the assumption by the writer that s/he has the right, and probably the duty, to comment on the thoughts of others, and their life practices. These writers have no more rights to this than Jerry Falwell ever did. Religion is a horribly difficult subject to write on: you must be able to separate the subject from the humans involved in the subject. I don't observe that the atheists here even think that is required. Words like "silly" and "stupid", words that would not be tolerated by a rightwinger discussing anyone not born again, are used freely and casually. This is always a terrible sign. Anyone who uses "silly" does think herself as capable of commenting from above a group of people she makes it clear she knows better than. Of course it rankles the group. It is SUPPOSED to. Sheeple are dumb and bad, right? Well, don't expect anyone to happily and compliantly join the group you're knocking.

I think I'll write an article about how stupid some vacation spots are, and how smart it is to go to the ones I like. I'll have plenty of reasons, very true to me and absolutely consistent with my experience. Will anyone be gullible enough to argue the points of that article? Or will people rightly come back with, "where do you get off? My life is MY life. I'll vacation wherever I goddam please". I never read anything like this, yet something far more important and personal is constantly being sneered at, as if the writer knows they have the absolute right.

We all arrive at where we are through ways we meant to travel, through ways we tried to avoid but were stuck with anyway, and one thing is for sure: if you've arrived at your final goal of thought, you're stuck. Your brain is turning to concrete. Don't expect anyone to join you in the hardening process, and especially don't expect anyone who can see what you're doing to yourself feel happy about your insistence that we join you.

Beliefs are intensely personal, arrived at for many reasons. Everyone needs to leave everyone else's alone. Fight for the teaching of evolution or for any other injustices in the real world. But people's heads need left alone, with respect and perspective.

One last bit of dishonesty: no one is influenced, although the pretense seems to be that that will happen, of course. No one is an atheist after reading an article. The vegan articles have not changed one diet or saved one cow. The political comments have probably cause less people to be in small parties. Big decisions come from big influences, a series of them over a long period of time.

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short answer: no
Posted by: HelperMonkey on Nov 3, 2009 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article seems to be a fairly long moan about how the author doesn't like some of the 'new atheists.' So dawkins sells merchandise? Who cares?

They're not as bad as fundamentalists because they're not spewing out hate-mongering, unsubstantiated claims about an all-seeing all-knowing being who listens to all our thoughts.

I don't care if you don't like them. They're logical. They're reasonable. There is nothing that I have heard dawkins ever say for example, that I could classify as faith or faith-based in any way. No real atheist has faith that god doesn't exist, they simply realise that there is no proof that one does, and don't see a need to fill the gap.

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There is a third option
Posted by: teenabooth on Nov 3, 2009 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The argument between athiests (materialists) and fundamentalists (dualists) rages on as if those are the only two options for belief. But there is a third way, called idealism. Remember Plato, Hegel, Spinoza, Emerson, Thoreau?

There is such a thing as spirituality without superstition, and it is growing in America -- 30 percent of Americans are now "spiritual but not religious" says Newsweek -- and yet the athiests and the religious keep pummeling each other like they are the only two options on the planet.

Maybe if they let go of each other's throats they might notice there is a third option that is both intellectually and spiritually satisfying.

www.newagepride.org

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» RE: There is a third option Posted by: masthead

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Are religious moderates as bad as christian fundamentalists?
Posted by: dutchbul on Nov 3, 2009 6:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for all the personal attacks regurgitated in this article, very enlightening stuff.

Anyway, the author fails to explain the intellectual black hole that he has weaved for us. If people who blindly believe in the bible are wrong, and people who strongly believe in science and reason are wrong, who's right? Well, the author's own personal brand of wishy-washy religiosity, of course! A quick read of the internets should have lead this guy to a whole trove of articles destroying the logic he has employed.

I just love it when a moderate believer equates strong belief in the natural sciences with fundamentalist belief in fictional accounts of our past. It exposes the moderates as weak minded and intellectually inferior. Thanks.

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» Reason is a human construct Posted by: suprmark

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What a stupid article
Posted by: soulrebeljc on Nov 3, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, of course "New Atheists" are not as dangerous as fundamentalist religious kooks. For one, we are not likely to kill someone over whether or not God exists. Why is it not OK to view the entire concept of 'faith' as idiocy? It certainly has a historical precedent as such. Seriously, what is so virtuous about believing in something with no evidence? (No, the bible does NOT count as evidence, not in any meaningful way.)

People are welcome to 'believe' whatever LooneyTunes ideas they want. They are all as LooneyTunes as each other - virgin birth, 72 virgins upon martyrdom, resurrection after 3 days, jesus came among the native americans - take your pick, all equally loopy...on par with the actual belief in a god, which is no more or less nutty than any of the surrounding myths. I would just like to see us get to a point where believing in god is something people grow out of, like the tooth fairy or the easter bunny or santa claus.

I don't have to respect "belief". I can accept that people "believe" many strange things, but I don't have to respect it. Any real moral ideas (the Golden Rule being the big one) do not need a god for validity.

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The good the bad and the ugly
Posted by: solrev on Nov 3, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is in the eye of the beholder. “Dennett believes that the answer is that religions evolved as a response to our fears and as an explanation to ourselves of what we don’t understand.” Dennett seems to possess the same fear motivation as the Elmer Gantry’s. What if a long time ago an infected man went deep into his cave and chanted to images drawn from inside him and on the cave wall, not driven by fear but by the infection itself. What if the infection and the image within him are one and the same? We mystics believe that we were created with that infection or in the image within. That is where the journey begins. Western atheism, Judeo-Christian-Islamic fundamentalism is just scenery at this point in time in the space time continuum. Enjoy the trip while you are a part of it in the dimension of the flush, because one can not escape the infection or the image within. Once upon a time there was a beginning, then there was an awakening, now is the era of the reconciliation, I would tell you what the next era will be but you would not believe it. Since you will not be here then it is not important right now, but your descendents are going to love it. The reconciliation is not as most Christians believe, between man and God, but they are at least on the journey. The reconciliation is more like Jesus said, your sins shall be forgiven, now how you going to act? Believe or do not believe, just keep spreading the word, that is how evangelism really works in the space time continuum, it is imbedded in your culture, an infection, an itch you can not scratch. We have come a long way from the images on the cave wall, from golden calves and even the books of the trinity themselves, all in search of a cure for the infection, the image within.

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I can't believe religious folk
Posted by: TLCTugger on Nov 3, 2009 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...would admit to not literally believing in scripture, but still support religion for its benevolence.

It's not benevolent at all. It's toxic.

Whatever good it does could also be done without superstition.

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WHAT!!!
Posted by: CBleichner on Nov 3, 2009 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet..... HOW COULD YOU POST THIS BULLSHIT.

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What an unprecedented piece of drivel.
Posted by: g on Nov 3, 2009 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am right now quite happy that I resisted Alternet's fundraising drive and gave my money elsewhere. I would have seriously regretted giving money to an organization that panders this kind of BS. In saying that the new atheists are no better than Ted Haggard, this writer reveals himself as unbiased and accurate as Lou Dobbs.
When exactly where PZ Myers, Dawkins and the other new atheists caught organizing a vote against the rights of a category of people (gays, women, immigrants)? Whenever has any of them being caught engaging in the behaviors that they chastise on a regular basis (going with prostitutes, male or females)? Most importantly, since when is a public and vigorous defense of one's belief the equivalent of intolerance and disrespect? People deserve respect, not opinion. People who feel disrespected every single time their opinion is challenged do not belong to civil debate. Atheists and supporters of Darwin do not whine "I have been disrespected" whenever creationists open their mouth: they get to work to show how untenable creationism is. This is what makes the kind of apologetics that Alternet is currently engaged in so intolerable. No atheist suggests that religion should be cracked down on. You want to find intolerance, look at believers wgo screed that atheists do not deserve tolerance, or that, at the very least, they should shot up about their beliefs. It's atheists who are unelectable, even when they show impeccable moral code.
If you are made uncomfortable by the fact that there are people who do not believe in God and who are not afraid to say so, this ought to be your problem. You have no right to tell others to stop manifesting their beliefs because you do not like them.
Shame on you, Alternet. I guess this is where you and I part ways.

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This article is ridiculous
Posted by: rational_moderate on Nov 3, 2009 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I very strongly believe in free speech, so I won't chime in with the criticisms that Alternet posted this. I think the editors/managers should bias towards accepting opinions that are all over the map, including stupid ones.
Nonetheless, in saying that, I feel a bit like the ACLU defending the Nazi party's right to march through Skokie, IL (a heavily Jewish community), as happened back in the 1970's.
Personally, I'd like to see this stupid and hostile meme (the idea that atheists are like fundamentalists) killed.

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Correction
Posted by: powdermonkey1 on Nov 3, 2009 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In other words, to Hitchens, Stalin and Hitler and Mao and Pol Pot and their ilk were more to be understood as bad popes than as bad atheists."

Hitler (at least) was a devout Christian.

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» Not Posted by: wefearwhatwedontunderstand

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in a word...YES
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Nov 3, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the "new atheists" ARE just as bad as christian fundies - i speak from the experience of working for a small "humanist" community on the west coast - the people in the community i work with are every bit as dogmatic about their beliefs (some times more so) as the fundies i encountered in the mid west...atheism is just another religion...it is just as intolerant of those who do not believe the same thing(s) they do, just as sure they are correct and the group i work for is a 501(c)(3) religious organization...

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» as intolerant..really? Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: in a word...YES Posted by: masthead
» RE: in a word...YES Posted by: Hirnlego

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Political Militancy
Posted by: ClassAct on Nov 3, 2009 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American political and judicial systems have consistently written laws and interpretations of those laws implicitly finding that Christian values are morally superior to those of other systems -- or even those of non-religious rationality. (Witness the war on the public trading under the name of a war on drugs.) Militancy is an effective counterbalance to that support garnered by those whom the author considers to be "bad preachers," so "let a hundred flowers bloom." We can worry about tending the garden when we have beaten back the weeds.

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For the Science!
Posted by: Balance40 on Nov 3, 2009 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A couple of years ago South Park had a couple of episodes (Go God Go, Go God Go XII) where one character went forward in time where Richard Dawkins had managed to convert the world to atheism. The result? We still had wars. The various factions on earth instead saying for God or Allah said "For the Science!". The factions where divided on who was the best and most authentic atheist. Sound familiar?

South Park's point is even if religion did not exist or Dawkins wet dream came true we would still have wars and disagreements because we are human.

All movements throughout history struggle for acceptance from larger society at some point or another. They generally go through a phase where they try and stand out by railing against everyone else. They also have their share of nutballs. Seems pretty common to the species.

At a certain point atheists will take their place along Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, agnostics, pagans and everybody else. Maybe, just maybe we will find out what we have in common as human beings and stop trying to convert each other to our point of view.

In the meantime I thank Alternet for posting this article. I may not agree with everything posted here but it is nice to hear not only from the atheists but the believers as well.

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» RE: For the Science! Posted by: batmagoo
» RE: For the Science! Posted by: Balance40
» RE: For the Science! Posted by: masthead
» RE: For the Science! Posted by: Balance40

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Mike Spindell
Posted by: mikespindell on Nov 3, 2009 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought this was an excellent article primarily because both Dawkins and Hitchens are two blowhards with little conception of the flaws in their arguments. I say that as someone who doubts the existence of a creative force ordering the Universe and finds the concept of an afterlife to be without merit.

The problem with Atheism per se though is that as one looks at the realms of scientific discovery of things that are totally counter-intuitive like 11 dimensions, or the interconnectedness of all matter and energy, a reasonable person must admit there is also the possibility of a creative force ordering the universe. This is not a definite logical truth, but it remains a viable possibility.

My own use of LSD in my youth taught me that the fabric of what we call reality is quite thin and subjective. While I'm not optimistic about a God created/driven universe, I believe it is still an open question.

Both Mr. Dawkins and Mr. Hitchen also reinterpret religious belief in terms of their own pre-judgments and lack of understanding of contexts. The creators of many sacred texts were not primitives, but people adept in the use of metaphor and analogy. Genesis in its' time was not understood as actual history, but was a metaphor for creation. In the Jewish Torah for instance it is quite informative to realize that all of the patriarchs and their wives were seriously flawed people. That was the point, rather than a belief that this was actual history.

Anyone familiar with Hellenic religious beliefs knows that Zeus' pantheon were metaphors for the world and society. Yet people like Dawkins and Hitchens fail to grasp this and that is proof of their own pre-judgment clouding their thinking.

The religious evil in this world has always been the misuse of the various teachings by men lusting for power, who reinterpret their holy writings to produce results foreign to the original intent. This has been the evil of organized