Cowardice Among 'Christian' Leaders: Why the Churches Are Largely Mum on Torture

WONDERING how that gets decided...
Perhaps content not acceptable? Nothing in my comment that I would think Alternet "would not tolerate", or was there???
Multiple buildings downed on 9-11 and tons of victims, incl. more than 40,000 First REsponders and families going through tortures on daily basis now? Hmmmmm. Except, of course, for those that are already dead from their work after 9-11.
Silence in the churches is about lots more than torture of detainess, who, when issue is about whether torture is OK or not, we completely seem to forget that they didn't cause 9-11 in the first place, or at least the VAST majority of them had nothing, nothing to do with it.
Let's see if this gets through.

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There is nothing that better reveals and testifies to the absolute, perfect, pure and un-conditional obedience and commitment to the "father", God, the Parent, than the lacerated, punctured, constrained and otherwise punished (limited only by the imagination and 'creativity' of the Representative of God and his technological and scientific level of development) Body.

This relationship to the body and physical world is most definitely not unique only to the Christian religious factions and protagonists. In that respect, although they are an important part of our own social history, it is a bit unfair to single them out for these barbarisms and animalistic tendencies.

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In the interests of clarity and to advance to a more human and just and productive confrontation with this lamentably retrograde practice, we should also bear in mind that historically and even today vivi-section, experimentation, "therapeutics" and all kinds of questionable practices, have always accompanied the advance of our biological and psychological sciences.

Both freely-consenting and non-consenting, subjugated humans have been the objects of all kinds of experimentation in order to further our knowledge and understanding of our physical and psychological as well as emotional makeup. There have always been sections and individuals who have been tempted and have actually embarked upon such experimentations on un-willing, un-knowing and un-aware humans.

And the AMA, the Psychological and Psychiatric Associations, the Lawyer's Guild, the Pharmaceutical Associations, etc. have also been dismally quiescent in addressing issues like this. Torture is torture, for whatever purpose it is practiced.

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Maybe we'd like to think so, but when push comes to shove, all fall down.

The sad reality is, however, that we're really not Catholics, Hindus or Muslims. We're just human beings that find it easier to get by in self perpetuating, competitive groups. Jesus, if he existed at all, deserved what he got for inciting one group against another from a moral basis and then tortured in a most terrible way by people manipulated to fear for themselves in a preemptive way.

At least torture as we think of it is a personal kind of immorality. There's a torture scene in the film Syriana that effectively depicts the emergence of twisted emotions that override anything rational or moral. It's an ultimately personal and primal expression of fear and rage. The basis of all human perversion.

But Syriana also depicts cold blooded, remote controlled predator assassination replete with collateral carnage. It's a less focussed delivery of pain and prolonged suffering by the wounded. It engages physical shock in a more pronounced way and eliminates any considerations of mercy by virtue of instantaneousness. But, again, it's likely a good "Christian" holding the joystick, and giving the order.

What we don't seem able to grasp in the fog of institutional dogma, is that we literally are doing this to ourselves. We are the individual, microbial experience of what we think of as "God". The separation is the illusion in the river of life. Why we need the conflict and suffering to overcome is likely, and perhaps perversely, because realizing our oneness is even more painful in it's joy.

Meanwhile, we accept forgiveness from "God" for not knowing what we do. I'm unsure though if there's the same latitude for simply not giving a shit. We most assuredly will all find out.

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goes on. I've been to churches where leaders and some of their zealous members would do just about anything include almost torturing their new members into following this or that or else. I didn't like it when my parents and their overzealous religious friends tried to tell me what to believe in and what kind of Christianity was acceptable when I was young. The good news is that usually most churches in the cities aren't so "evangelical" compared to most in the rural areas and some in the suburbs. The bad news is that the more liberal and progressive churches are often targetted by the government especially by IRS. A church that openly declares its fervor for school prayer which often means forcing religion on young students is given tax exempt status while a church that expresses its opposition to torture is far more likely to get audited by the IRS.

To make matters worse, last year Obama was open to expanding on Dubya's faith-based rightwing programs and supporting funding for more Christian bootcamps even though he sort of promised not to. Since that means indoctrinating the ideology that torture is acceptable into young minds, it's no surprise that other nations all over the world will HATE US for years and possibly decades to come. I opposed both Mccain and Obama for their support of torture though each of them supported it differently.

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Is the Centerpiece of their "Places of Worship".What they kiss and pray to...The Cross
Of all the Stories of miraclous deeds, the symbol of Choice was the Romans Beloved From of Torture and capitol punishment. The Romans executed millions like this - this is not indictive of Christ's life, just merely his abuse and murder. At least the Fish has some 'WWJD' instructional implications.
And who came up with the Crucifix as the Idollic symbol to be worshipped? The Death Dealer Constantine? Or could it be those who become the heir 'apparents' to Jesus' Church? In some faiths Peter is the Judge of each person- He's the 'Gatekeeper'. Seems a bit above his pay grade- don't you think? What's an All Knowing, All Powerful God need with a 'Gatekeeper'?? Hasn't He been watching? If Jesus is doing the Judgement upon his 'Second Coming' why isn't he incharge of the Gate now?
Considering everything we know about the 'Religious Right'- shady, greedy business practice,Self Anointment and entitlement, Blood thirst for war & revenge, Apathetic to the sufferings/struggles of others..._ Who do you Think they Worhsip & serve? the One who would have been Cheering the Crucifixion.Who's influence over human behavior allowed such an atrocity to occur.
An abomination of human behavior- the 'beast' within to not only committe such inhumanity, but condone it. What if the masses had revolted against this execution? Would Humanity been vindicated, proven to not be as sinful as expected. Would there have been the need for Jesus 'To die for Our sins', had they not remained silent,Turned their backs,Denied him or aided in the torment?
I submit the Crucifix is in admiration for Jesus' Death, not a symbol of His Life. The Shame and Remorse it should invoke when seen should be that attributed to Vampires.
Heres an perplexing contradiction- If the Pro Lifers believe protesting with signs of aborted babies will repulse people enough to convince them this is a mortal sin- why do they not see the Cross as similarly symbolic? Perhaps the Pro Lifers should consider making the suction machine their Logo. It makes about as much sense.

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Complaining that the "historical Jesus" isn't being followed is like arguing over whether Robin Hood wore green tights or blue tights. Jesus was a mythical figure. Experts on antiquity say such a person might have existed, but the stories about him in the Bible probably were borrowed from other ancient legends and fables, much like our Aesop's Fables. One version of Jesus' life, which was left out of the King James Bible, even described him as flying around like Superman.

Bickering over which cult accurately reflects the teachings of a mythical figure is pointless and counterproductive. The real problem is that we continue to treat religion as a reasonable and respectable world view. It is not.

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Who wrote this diabolic screenplay;a stolen election in 2000, 9/11, Iraq/Afgn theft, torture...


Islam/torture was not part of our script. This toxic link w/political Israel is all too dark, draconian and dangerous. AIPAC bought congress at a fire sale at a deep discount.

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"I know that it looks (and smells) grisly to drive nails through a man's hands and feet, but it's all right because it doesn't affect any major organs. Neither does driving a crown of thorns down on someone's head damage any major organs. And most important, it's effective. The sight of 100 dead men hanging from crosses deters the rest of the populaton from revolting."

"Our justice system is the finest in the known world. Every man crucified is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

-- Pontius Pilate

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I appreciate Ray McGovern's work, but just take this article and substitute Islam or Judaism or Hinduism (or any of the shamanistic religions that sanction violence against women and children)... and alternet wouldn't touch it.
Christianity is not distictively violent. Neither is technologism.
Both have that potential. because they are human institutions.

Alternet has a hardon for atheism right now, and it's a dead end. Used to be a useful site, now it's unintentionally useful to the cause of Rove et al.

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I suggest that those US citizens who believe 'that we are better than this' nonsense take the time to study your own history, what you have done to your own people --- what you are doing to your own people --- then look at what you have done to others down the years.

Recent events are simply clearly reflecting what the US is, and has always been.

What is worse, there would be very few of you who saw any reason to change.

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Great bumper sticker.

As indicated in the article and some of the comments, you won't find much courage in institutions, their leaders, or their flock, since they are "of this world". The same was true back when Jesus was pointing out the hypocrisy of religious leaders.

Fundamental to true Christian thinking is the lonely and unromantic notion of doing the right thing regardless of what others are thinking, saying or doing, regardless of whether it makes as much of a difference as you wish it would, and regardless of whether they crucify you. There are many Christians and non-Christians today and throughout history who are good examples of that, despite institutional churches' preference for boot-licking, popularity, comfort, and rhetoric.

Thus, while we should condemn these institutions for lacking courage and moral clarity, we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for more than an exceptional handful to step up.

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... one of your Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill." So, how do you justify killing in war?

He came back with some quote from the Bible - I forget which but I seem to remember it was from the New Testament - saying it showed that if a Christian is face with a simple choice doing something evil to prevent something even more evil, or of standing by and doing nothing, then doing whatever evil could be done to stop the greater evil was morally justified in the eyes of God.

Christ, he argued, was NOT a pacifist, as witnessed by his violence in the temple when he threw over the stalls of the money lenders. Yes, maybe that was a bit OTT for Jesus but it hardly compares with killing people, does it! Nevertheless, that was the argument I was faced with.

So I tried another tack to see where it might lead: God allegedly gave Mankind free will. Therefore, is it not each individual responsible for their own actions, not those of anyone else's? If this be the case, would it not be God's will for one to allow a fellow human commit a sin (e.g. kill) someone else because would have been their choice to sin, and only they would be accountable to God for doing it?

He then found some other quotation from the Bible that he felt meant it was a God-given duty for a good Christian to intervene. He also said "Would you just stand by and let someone stabbing another to death, or would you do everything in your power to stop it happening even if that meant killing the attacker?"

Well, yeah - I would intervene even if that meant killing the attacker. But then, I'm not a Christian. Anyway, it was obvious I wasn't going to get anywhere because my knowledge of the Bible was poor compared to his so I couldn't dig out quotes from it to counter his! So, I gave. But I think there might be a quote in the bible that says something like, 'It is fruitless to fight for causes that have no hope of prevailing - save your self for fighting those where you may prevail.' There again, this may not be in the bible. Nevertheless, it seems like good advice to me.

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It's a proven interrogation method used since the Good Ole Days of the Grand Inquisition, when the Church had Supreme Power over the world.
Why would heretics want to outlaw such a grand tradition?
Next thing you know, they'll want to outlaw exorcism.
What would Jesus do???
Let us mourn for the eroding power of the Church.

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Forget people of Christ just look at what the cops are doing in America:

http://americaspeaksink.com/?s=taser

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That's an eighteenth century quote I have to have messed up.

The religiose were just too worn out carrying the plutocratic water; they had no energy left for God's work. Churches have accountants too.

This isn't exactly new.

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Churches are quiet on this topic - THEY haven't figured out how to use it as a scare tactic to raise more money. They can whip up fear on gay rights, abortion, guns, minorities and their 'sheep' who cannot think for themselves, buy into their vigilante campaigns. They enjoy nothing more than telling other Americans how to live and imposing self-righteous indignation whose means is to control and manipulate the masses.
Unfortunately, in many Churches, it is where one goes to learn to be hateful, intolerant, judgmental and condemning of others.

WITHOUT THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT - WHERE WOULD HATE COME FROM?

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Because Jesus was tortured to death.

His death saved humanity.

Therefore torture is good.

That's why many Christians encourage it.

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........"One version of Jesus' life, which was left out of the King James Bible, even described him as flying around like Superman."

I don't understand why they left that out of the Bible. It's no sillier than the other stuff they put in.

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Yes, we all "know" that the Catholic Church kept silent during WWII and tacitly encouraged the Nazis. Except, of course, that an examination of the historical record shows that Pope Pius XII actually saved 860000 Jews, (covertly) mobilizing the Catholic Church to save those it could. Nearly a million Jews saved, and people accuse him of supporting the Nazis because he, I don't know, should have driven to Berlin and roundhouse-kicked Hitler in the face.

The state of Israel credits Pius XII with the 860,000 figure; look it up. Even Golda Meir considered Pius XII a protector of the Jews; when he died her comment was:

"We share in the grief of humanity…When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."

And as for Pius remaining silent ... the world understood damn well at the time that, when Pius gave multiple Christmas addresses telling his listeners that they must treat their fellow man with dignity, he was talking squarely about the Nazis. People today feel Pius should have done something very over-the-top, like an Alex Jones-style radio broadcast about the evils of Hitler; but Alex Jones has the luxury of living in a country that wouldn't kill him in a heartbeat, whereas Pius XII had to weigh the good he could do as a martyr versus as a head of a Church that had enough real estate and resources to do some good, if properly directed.

We have a German playwright, of all people, to blame for Pius XII's bad reputation today. It used to be that the world was aware Pius was no friend of the Nazis, but then one Rolf Hochhuth wrote a play called "The Deputy" about how the Pope was totally Hitler's toadie. I can't underscore the hypocrisy enough: this is a GERMAN accusing the Pope of obedience to Hitler. (In recent years Hochhuth has also come to the aid of Holocaust deniers, so yeah, the guy's a reliable source.)

Look, I'm all for denouncing the Catholic Church when it screws up, and it does that a lot. But just this once, they were in the right place to do some good, and they actually did. Let's give Pius XII (and countless unknown priests, nuns, monks, and laypeople) credit for saving Jews when the need arose.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious motivation. The gods of today are all vicious,vindictive, venganceful, and angry.

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for that article. Now I know why I always felt so uncomfortable and disquieted when in church. I thought originally that it was because I knew my own sins and therefore believed myself to be a hypocrite for stepping over the threshold into the sanctuary. Now I'm learning that it is probably because I know my own heart and I know my own sense of morality and it just doesn't find sustenance in the church. I have been at odds with the Southern Baptist Church for many years and actually requested that they remove my name from their membership. I just couldn't reconcile their medieval beliefs with my own. Although the church members were very friendly on the surface they were actually regressive terrors in reality. This article tells the truth about them and other churches and gives me something to ponder in my heart.

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The quote marks around the word "christian" are not necessary. Look at their history. Christianity has NEVER been what it professes to be. If you think that christianity is a good, useful, thoughtful, or healthy belief system then you are a victim of propaganda.

dboy

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Religious institutions have committed to or have acquiesed to some of the most horrible crimes against humanity:
They've tortured "confessions" of this or that out of people with opposing views.
They've barbequed these poor wretches in public.
They've burned, drowned, or hung women accused of being witches.
Pope Pious XII ignored Nazi atrocities against Jews during WWII.
"Holy Mother Church" continues to cover up abuse of children by sadistic or sexually deviant priests.
What continues to amaze me is the tendency of churchgoers to minimize, whitewash, or completely ignore these crimes against humanity by those professing to represent a benevolent and loving god.

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...at some points in history, good Christians thought they were not quite human. Likewise, those being tortured are perceived as not being Christian, therefore not quite human.

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Now, how about a comparison in terms of numbers and names of the journalists who were willing and able to inform us about Abu Ghraib and those who actually did so.

No, I do not wish to excuse the sad fact that even torture can be rationalized away by us, when it is in our interest to do so.

Nor do I accept the root assumption of this article that it shows how those who claim to be holier than thou do not live up to their own claim. They never do, and neither do I, nor does anyone in my world of the "Human, All Too Human."

The message of Dostevsky, as I interpret it, is that if a Jesus, imagined as a god-like perfect being, returned to earth, we'd crucify him again. Whenever we expect perfection, we end up with what the Marquis de Sade argued, that we are truly good at inflicting pain, so let's perfect our techniques.

Of course it is sad to acknowledge that. But by what right do we crucify, even though only symbolically and verbally, admitted sinners? Does that get you off?

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Hypocrisy from the church? Say it isn't so . . . I'm shocked - stop the presses, alert the media!!!


People are pondering why is the church so silent on such a topic?

Gee , , , I wonder why that might be?

You don't suppose that some of the senior mainstream church authorities might be a bit disingenuous with their pontificatory edicts foisted upon the masses, which often differ from their real agendas and interests?

Why that would suggest that such church authorities are hypocrites - but that can't be, because they are God's representatives on earth, right???

Please, spare me . . .


I'll start with this basic concept:

Blind belief in the rigid edicts of organized religion, without question, even when it defies common sense and scientific reality in the 21st century, is a type of mental disorder. I mean this quite literally, but will offer the following as a defense of this seemingly controversial thesis.

There was a time, many centuries ago, when virtually all observed phenomena could be easily explained to the masses in the context of "divine" intervention or influence.

The vast majority of ordinary citizens were illiterate, and looked to the awe inspiring mythos of "the church" as the answer for all things. Any attempt at independent thought outside the rigidly enforced edicts of the church was discouraged with severe consequences, as was made vividly apparent during the times of the Inquisition.

In later times, the conquest and extermination of entire indigenous populations under the approval "the church" was considered proper, and sanctioned by the weird and hideous distortions of what Christ's original message had once been.

Indeed, if one is to take even a cursory examination of Christ's original message, one will find almost no semblance at all to what "the church" later claims to be its fundamental tenets.

No where in Christ's teachings does one find the suggestion for or the approval of the building of empires, the deployment of armies for conquest, the taxation of citizens under threat of death or "eternal damnation" , and the enforcement of theocratic law over a subjugated population.

Show me any example, anywhere in Christ's teachings, where such edicts can be found,

But OK, those were ancient times, one can argue.

Really? Let's have a quick look at the current world, shall we?

In various regions of the "developing world", where the poverty and misery factor of daily life are often beyond comprehension, the primary catalyst for this level of social disaster is over population.

It is into these hell holes of misery that the organized religions of the world come in, to enforce their bizarre policies of no family planning, no birth control, and no abortions under any circumstances.

The only way these organized religions can remain powerful is by claiming ever larger populations as their congregations, regardless of how miserable the populations in question may become as an artifact of these policies.

These policies have nothing whatever to do with the actual message of Christ when he was alive in this world.

Unfortunately, the problems facing the world today are accelerating, and the disparity between this reality, and many populations which are expanding with reckless abandon under the enforcement of religious dogma is heading toward a global catastrophe of unprecedented severity.

This is the reality that the world is facing today, and most certainly is not a world that Christ had envisioned being created in his name.

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That would be "...plumb the human heart..." not "...plum the human heart..." - but spell check won't catch that, will it? Geez, these writers...

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After all, the central story of the Christian religion is the torture and murder of a man living under foreign occupation. A religion that is both contemptuous of the Hebrew people living under occupation, and very flattering to the Roman state in its accounts of Jesus' execution in the New Testament.

Watch Mel Gibson's gosh awful film "The Passion of the Christ" and you'll see why the poll results mentioned in this article are not that surprising. Torture and murder is the path to salvation in Christianity.

I think that the attraction that Christianity must have had during its early history was that it makes a simple promise to its followers. Just accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, and you'll be saved. We can put end to all this blood shed we see in other religious practice because there is not need to kill anybody, or anything else.

Of course, that isn't the way Christianity has worked in practice (Inquisition).

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Simple as that...

These are not Christians we see in America but actually the re-birth of the evil corrupt Sanhedrin...

They are not about the New Testament they are the old Testament Judges who condemned Jesus to not only a cruel death but the worse of Torture and degradation...

Of course our government under Bush became a government of torture and Obama and Eric Holder refuse to address this, to all our jeopardy and shame...!

Shame on you Barack Obama, shame on you..!

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Why stop with Christians when there's plenty from the Muslim leaders as well?

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I admit I'm no rocket scientist, but my current leanings.....

With me, I do not think torture itself is the problem. It's the torture of innocents wrongly suspected of being 'terrorists'. What I gather from certain progressives is that they would be 'anti-torture', even against people known to be unsympathetic to the genocide of many of our people. Now, I know guilt or innocence is not something that can always be proven easily, and THIS is where I would base my arguments dealing with objections to gaining information through torture, rather than some hippie dialogue about how torturing genocidal psychos is 'wrong', (even if it saves lives).

I'm not religious in the least. I'm agnostic atheist, and somewhat libertarian. I just see more of an argument against the possibility of torturing 'innocents' as something that I would listen to and consider more credible than arguments about how torture is 'wrong', without explaining why. I mean I'm pacifist, but I'm not THAT pacifist. I would have no sympathy, for a (hypothetical) known violent terrorist being submitted to cruel and unusual acts. So the problem is not with torture in general or torturing people whom might give us information, because of some idealistic crap about the 'value' of human life, even extending to those whom would kill large numbers of our populace, but the problem is with the possibility of innocents being subjected to this......which is where it gets grey.

I might not have worded this right, completely, as I have somewhere to be, so that's mine for now.

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Amazing isn't it that so many Christian Church Leaders Fail To Call For Investigations and Prosecution Of Those That Tortured In Our Name?

But then, back in the 1850s and 1860s many of the loudest voices In Support Of Slavery Came From Southern Christian Pulpits. Nothing has changed except the voices are in Christian Churches All Over America.
Why is that?

Why are Christian Leaders so afraid of fighting against Torture and prosecution of the Torturers?

It is not "retribution", IT IS ENFORCING Our Federal ANTI-TORTURE LAWS!
( unless we do have a dual standard of Justice in America)


We have heard it said that the proposed probe and special prosecutor being suggested by AG Holder
Would be a big break from Bush Torture Policy"

Oh Please, IT IS NOT !

This trial balloon is designed to try to get away with a very narrowly focused, very limited
investigation of only a few criminals who tortured using methods worse than the
ALREADY ILLEGAL Torture Methods Approved In The Torture Memos.

Unless we voters get a complete investigation of all the abuses of power and violations of Federal Laws, Holder's tightly focused, limited investigation of torture that violated the "Bush Cheney Torture Memos" means little or nothing.


The Torture Momos were "used to con normally law abiding, patriotic CIA agents and
US Soldiers" into violating our existing Federal Torture Laws.

The problem here is that Attorney General Holder seems to be leaning toward a very narrow investigation about the "wrong" Torture violations.

SEE Our Federal Anti-Torture Laws

Holder appears to be saying that the Bush "Torture Memos" have the force of law, that the memos became new torture law and that he only has to prosecute violations which were outside of the Torture allowed by the memos. That is false.

The "Torture Memos" themselves are a criminal conspiracy to evade our Federal Anti-Torture Laws and to render our Federal Torture Law moot.

The Torture Memos were "used to con normally law abiding, patriotic CIA agents and
US Soldiers" into violating our existing Federal Torture Laws.

A presidentially appointed lawyer can't make or change Federal Laws no matter who appoints them. Bush and Cheney attempted to ignore the law and put all who tortured or conspired to torture, even if they meant well (chuckle), at serious risk of prosecution.

We the people have to bring these creeps to justice or this will happen again even when the Democrats are in power (perhaps especially, remember President Johnson and Vietnam and Operation Phoenix, thousands assassinated? The CIA again).


Prosecute all those that tortured in our name, then go after all the other Federal Crimes and violations of our Constitution committed by Bush and Cheney.


If House Judiciary Chairman Rep. John Conyers
does not soon start public hearings in his Committee
on the crimes of the Bush Administration

Call For His Resignation.



SIGN THE PETITIONS
Demanding
both a Commission of Inquiry
and a Special Prosecutor
For All Their Crimes
at

ANGRYVOTERS.ORG


.

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vatican texts boast of more than a million 'heretics' killed, often tortured, in the first millennium. then, from 1297-1892, the spanish inquisition tortured, burned and slaughtered several million jews, 'witches' and gays, who were the 'faggots' for burning witches, gypsies and artists. in the 'children's crusades' some 140,000 of europe's poorest children, none of the children of the nobility or wealthy, were sent to their deaths, even barefoot, over the alps to fight the moslems.

then the catholics and protestants started killing and torturing each other for a few hundred years in the reformation. but the big one was the church-state white christian european invasion of the western hemisphere where they exterminated at least 75 million native peoples between 1500-1900, wiping out 95% of all 'indians' in the hemisphere. this imperial-religious colonial genocide was also applied to africa for the slave trade and later for resource-colonies; in australia, the pacific island nations... in many cases not a single native was left alive, killed down to the last baby – tasmania, newfoundland, haiti.

an 1872 survey by the new york herald tribune showed that over 70% of americans, most christians, supported the "complete elimination of the indians." preachers everywhere ranted about the need to kill ALL the heathens.

of the 162 million war deaths in the 20th century, over 2/3 were by or between christian nations. lotsa photographs showing hitler, mussolini and america's darling fascist franco on balconies hugging cardinals and ministers.

no entity in history has anywhere near the torture and genocide record of the christian religion. if the dreaded white christians come to your shores, realize they'll soon be wiping you all out and stealing everything while waving that bloody cross.

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what genocidal slaughter of americans are you discussing? there has never been anything remotely genocide committed against white americans. maybe it really was foreign operatives who pulled off the events of 911 with boxcutters. whoever did that deed killed 3,000 innocent americans. but 3,000 isn't genocide.

according to the official report on 911, those hijackers were saudi and egyptian, except for one afghani who was later found alive and uninvolved. so going to war against iraq and afghanistan was as if FDR had gone to war against korea and australia after pearl harbor! but of course, saudi runs america almost as much as AIPAC and egypt is also an 'ally.' the usa had hired and empowered hussein from 1959-1989, then turned on their puppet as he was more convenient as an enemy. since 1990, the usg has exterminated some 2 million iraqis out of their 25 million population. now that IS genocide.

usa census bureau says the gulfwar killed 245,000, usg signed the UN declaration that over 800,000 iraqis died in the embargo with most of these being children, (while from 1995-2003 the API says iraq was the 3rd largest supplier of oil to america despite the embargo...), the usa/uk 'sorties' killed another 45,000 minium and john hopkins research states that by the end of 2007, roughly a million had died due to the usa invasion and occupation of iraq. we're talking about over 8% of that population, not including orphans, displaced and the drastically worsened conditions of women, gays, artists there.

if this happened to america proportionately, it would mean 25 million deaths, etc. then americans could talk about genocide against americans.

only vicious thug goons use torture, child-targeting weapons like clusterbombs, 'disappearance' WMDs. decent people do not. it is as plain and simple as that. most christians traditionally back virtually every war and torture throughout history. decent people do not.

by the way, as for offhanded insult to 'hippies;' i'm an 'old hippie' myself. while i'm not a saint... the last time i even punched anyone i was 12 years old in 1966. wanna ridicule non-violence? bet you'd change that tune after 6 seconds of being waterboarded.

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Religious leaders for centuries have believed in exorcism. It is a belief that the Devil lives inside every evil doer and must be removed. They thought the best way to do that is by torture. It is no wonder that the church is silent as millions are tortured.

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Christianity wouldn't have its basic tenets of personal martyrdom if they didn't have a stable of horror-stories, provided by the blundering...

I mean, have you LOOKED at any of the catalogued saints?

...its one long litany of 'look how fucked up these folks got, & then they became SAINTS! ...you would have never heard of them if they hadn't been broiled alive/impaled/beheaded & walking/deep fried/flayed/raped/flung from a parapet/chained to a wall/starved/crushed beneath rocks/punctured to a tree...

You have to wonder about people who sit & find comfort meditating on the horrors inflicted on people, who ... will intercede on your behalf with the Big Guy in the Sky... all for the price of a candle & perpetual servitude...

THESE PEOPLE GLORIFY & OBJECTIFY HORRIFIC PHYSICAL INDIGNITIES VISITED UPON THEM BY EVIL OVERLORDS...
then chant in the streets to do it upon Others...

its sickening.
so, too, is the creepy 'you eat of my flesh & blood' cannibalistic transubstantiation fuckupery (that always made my youthful self's skin crawl & her stomach churn... )

WITHOUT TORTURE & DEATH & DEPRAVATION: the Christian wouldn't have the fundamental & all-essential POOR ME monotheistic complex that drives them to FUCK OVER OTHERS BEFORE THEY ARE ASS-FUCKED THEMSELVES.

Basically, the average Christian is a cowardly bully, consorting in shrieking xenophobic packs, convinced that ACTING UPON PARANOIA IS THE PRICE OF ETERNAL SALVATION. The depth of understanding of philosophy, social or cognitive psychology's lessons from the Old & New Testaments is lost in the objectification

The interesting part is how they OBSESS about the cruelties visited upon monotheists of the Old Testament... preferring the melodrama & cruelties to the New Testament...

unless, its Ezekiel, Revelations or passages where the Good Jebus got himself martyred...

realistically, the only Saints appear... after the Jebus.
doesn't that say something significant?
...the pre-death visitation of purgatory purification for a good 'to make us look good' cause is also good for the community!

TORTURE IS WHAT CREATED CHRISTIANITY & HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IS HOW THEY JUSTIFY KEEPING THEMSELVES 'SAFE' & SELF-JUSTIFIED


Perspective.

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"... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice..." ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

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I find the fusillades delivered toward the "war like" Islam to be quite entertaining coming from the most war happy people on Earth, Christians of Europe and their descendants. Your article is nicely done. I was going to take exception to the quote "from a famous general," concerning the enemy; a defense something along the lines that he was not professing to be a spokesman for Christianity, he was being a warrior that is sent off by the 1st and 2nd Estates to do his job, and that job was to kill those people that are trying to kill you. I thought surely he just wanted his men to come back alive from the hell that the politicians had created with the immoral acquiescence of the church. But after looking at his background, I reversed my opinion. You are right, he would have tortured.

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Maybe genocide isn't the right word, but things like 9-11 or bombings that kill many Americans, even if not enough to constitute being labeled a 'genocide'. PLUS, I never said anything about 'white Americans'. The fact that the word 'white' even came into play when I did not mention sounds awfully like racebaiting crap, to me. (Like how many liberals blame 'white America' for things that are not exclusive to us, by a longshot.)

I'm about as against our foreign policy in most wars as it gets and am equally against blind nationalism as I am political correctness from the left of the spectrum. I think it's sickening that so many conservatives with 'Remember 9-11' bumper stickers would support an unnecessary war where innocent foreign civilians died, and not only would they not 'remember' these deaths, but probably would not notice them to begin with. It seems as if you are drawing false conclusions about me, or assuming I am a pro war nationalist who is not already aware of much of what you stated.

Only vicious 'goons' use torture? Hypothetically speaking, if 'torture' of someone we KNEW was withholding information of a deadly attack had prevented 9-11, would it have been justified? I'm just speaking hypothetically here, because I disagree with the hardcore stance against torture in ANY CASE.

I have nothing against 'hippies' except for things like politically correct politics, which are less about honesty than emotions. (Abuse of the term 'anti-immigrant' for people who support legal immigration, banning guns will make us safer, only men are sexist, yada yada,)

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Many years ago (20 or more) I came across a booklet which was a compilation of formal statements from several leading American churches against capital punishment. I was heartened to see this, because IMHO nothing could be clearer, more categorical and inescapable than the Fifth Commandment. Furthermore, the way capital punishment is practiced in our country, leaving people on death row for years or even decades, strikes me as the utmost form of torture, far worse than "enhanced interrogation techniques".

But then I had to ask myself the same question as Ray McGovern: how can there be such overwhelming support for the death penalty among the church-going public, if their own church hierarchy officially opposes it? Evidently, then as now, whether it's on the issue of torture or executions, "courageous statements at high official levels do not find their way into Sunday sermons" as Ray put it.

Rather than cowardice, I would characterize the attitude of church leaders as hypocrisy.

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over their doors stating emphatically that Torture is a moral issue and that they condemn it. Mainly liberal ones near the University of Washington in Seattle. Off the top of my head: Methodist at 15thNE and NE43rd,church at 15th NE and NE 50th (can't remember denomination) the Quaker Hall at NE 40th and 9thNE and at least one other.
(I'm not a christian but a pagan)

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remember the inquisition?

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wasn't it these supposed bible thumpin' christians that really pressured and put president **** in office? (he niether deserves the respect of capitalization nor name recognition) The, um "church" hides it's pedophiles so torture must be ok in their eyes as well. Oh, and the same with war and unjustified killing of innocents. A new mass should be written and be called hypocracy. Sorry that kind of singled out the catholics in the audience. Why don't y'all christian hypocrates get together and take a big ol' sip of Uncle Jim's kool-aid. Same with all you other god-fearin' (who or whatever your god may be) you're invited too! Then we can start all over again without any fear of death fantasy beings running and ruining lives. How about a little faith in ourselves and our fellow human beings, eh?

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The United Methodist Church has taken an unequivocal stand against torture in any form. While President Obama's Executive Order banned the use of torture, there still remains the need for past actions by the United States to be fully known so that we can make sure we never torture again.

Their position is as such: Our commitment to human rights is grounded in the conviction that each and every human life is sacred. Therefore the United Methodist Church endorses legislative and judicial remedies for the use of torture and illegal detention ...such as the appointment of special counsels [and] appropriate investigations.

#6120 "Opposition to Torture" Book of Resolutions (2008)

More at: www.umc-gbcs.org

The United Methodists also joined with the National Religious Coalition Against Torture (NRCAT) to encourage churches to engage in any number of educational activities to raise awareness about the need to end torture once and for all! Please visit NRCAT's website (www.nrcat.org) for more details

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When Christians speak up, you want us to shut up and go away. When we don't speak up, you criticize for that. You are only interested in Jesus' teachings when it fits your agenda or you can beat us over the head with it for not meeting your expectations. That's funny because aren't you always accusing us of that very thing yourselves? You don't care what we think about abortion or gay marriage or anything else, but you are waiting on the edges of your seats to hear what we have to say about this? We HATE torture and we are neither responsible for it or (God forbid)condoning it!

I have been a Christian most of my life. I, however, am a part of the "invisible" church. That's the majority of the church that is as creeped out by the extreme right as you are. Most of the church is made up of political moderates. We are conservative on some issues and liberal on others. For instance, even though I hate abortion, I don't believe it's the government's place to make decisions for women regarding their health care, so I'm actually pro-choice. Go figure.

The secular world has a very schizophrenic way of looking at us and you think you know more about living as a Christian than we do. Yet everything you say about how Christians are "supposed to" think or live is inaccurate. You think you understand the Bible more than we do, but you prove again and again that you don't. For example, we don't think we're better than you. We know that Christ is the only difference between us and you.

When we disagree with your "morality", we're ignorant, backwards hatemongers, but when we don't speak up loud enough for you in agreement with you, we are subservient, republican, Bush administration worshipers.

Right now, Christians are being tortured and murdered for our beliefs. For you to state that we find the torture of ANYONE to be ok in any way is utterly ridiculous. The Christian viewpoint is (for the record) whatever you do to your brother, you do to God. (Matt 25:40)

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You ask why Christians are mum on torture. Could it be that, discretion being the better part of valor, they are afraid they will be viewed as hypocrites? I mean, after all, there were the Crusades (slaughter of untold numbers of both Muslims and Jews); the mass extermination of Manicheans, Albigensians, and all manner of other "heretics"; the witch pogroms that saw many thousands of wise women burned at the stake, lit up by "fagots" (guess who they were?). All told, the number of non-Christians slaughtered wholesale by those calling themselves "Christians" runs well into the millions. No wonder they won't just say no to torture. They've done it themselves. What do you think the Spanish Inquisition was all about? If you didn't admit to being a heretic, you were tortured until you did. Sound familiar?

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People literally go willingly to be tortured every week (sometimes more), so is it any surprise that they feel that torture is not good for others?

And do you think for one minute that the people doing the torturing in these Houses of Superstition and Mythology would speak out against their own methodology?

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At the risk of "blowing my own horn", I must point out that at least one Christian denomination- the Roman Catholic Church( or the Holy See at the very least) is certainly NOT silent on the issue of US torture in Abu Ghraib or "Gitmo"- L'Osservatore Romano( The Vatican newspaper) has explicitly and repeatedly condemned the Bush Administration over its (mal?) treatment of "enemy combatants"- more puzzling is the relative silence of not just the "evangelical" churches but the US Catholic bishops and prelates- are they arguing in effect that their American citizenship trumps their Christian discipleship( sounds like idolatry to me!)

Terry

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And where exactly do Episcopalians stand on torture? Just curious.

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Well take a look at cristians history,crusades,acusisiuans ect ect.

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Our churches need to get on board with the movement to prosecute those who violated our Federal Torture Laws.

Make an example of the Bush criminals or it will happen again. Prosecute them for Torture and other equally serious crimes.

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