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My Womb for God's Purposes: The Perils of Unassisted Childbirth in the Quiverfull Movement

Distrustful of experts, many Quiverfull followers are leaving childbirth to God. The recent death of a newborn, however, exposes a growing rift.
July 23, 2009  |  
 
 
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In the last week of June, two different circles of blogs invested in the Quiverfull movement—both as critics and supporters of the pro-natalist, patriarchal, conservative Christian lifestyle—focused on the sad news of the death of one Quiverfull mother’s child shortly after birth. The woman was Carri Chmielewski, author of the now-private blog “Carri Me Away,” where she described her Quiverfull lifestyle, eschewing contraception, having as many children as God gave her, submitting to her husband’s leadership, and, in a related conviction common among Quiverfull adherents, her plans to deliver her children through unassisted childbirth—a home birth with no doctors, nurses, or midwives to help her and her husband through labor and aftercare.

For weeks, Chmielewski’s plans drew the scrutiny and concern of Quiverfull critics, such as the commenters on the wryly-named ”Free Jinger” forum, a discussion board dedicated to “freeing” Jinger Duggar, one of the daughters of the Quiverfull Duggar family featured on reality TV show 18 Kids and Counting. Commenters there and elsewhere followed news of Chmielewski’s pregnancy, at first with light snark directed at this exemplar of Quiverfull conviction, and then growing concern as Chmielewski described mounting complications: she reportedly measured much larger than expected for a normal pregnancy and discussed her own doubts and misgivings about going through with the unassisted birth.

Because of these worries, Chmielewski sought the opinion of a certified professional midwife (a class of midwife distinct from certified nurse midwives, who have extensive medical training) from Central Indiana Home Birth Midwives. According to retired OB-GYN blogger Amy Tuteur, the midwife told Chmielewski that she was carrying twins, and maintained her diagnosis despite an ultrasound that only revealed one fetus, claiming that one twin was “hiding” behind the other. As Chmielewski was nearly three weeks past her due date, the midwife advised her to wait; when the baby was born, Chmielewski suffered amniotic fluid embolus (a rare condition that can occur in hospital births as well), causing the child, Benaiah, to die, and the mother to survive in critical condition.

At Salon’s Broadsheet blog and the Free Jinger forums, commenters weighed on whether the death constituted actionable child neglect, in the model of Christian Scientists—or the recent case involving the Nemenhah Band—refusing medical care for their children. Chmielewski’s husband, who critics charge has erased or hidden much of his wife’s past writing, described her survival as a miracle of God, who spared her even as He took their son.

Where Quiverfull Meets New Age

The tragedy in the Chmielewski family also prompted other discussion of the role that unassisted childbirth has within the Quiverfull movement. Vyckie Garrison, a former Quiverfull follower who writes about leaving the movement at the blog “No Longer Quivering,” described her own experiences with unattended home births, including one that ended in the emergency room after Garrison suffered a partial uterine rupture.

“Like you,” Garrison wrote in an open letter to Chmielewski, “I held to a firm conviction that children are a blessing from the Lord and I strongly desired to have as many blessings as He chose to send my way. Faced with the very real possibility of half a dozen or more pregnancies in my future, I was highly motivated to diligently seek out the very safest—least expensive, traumatic, painful, and unpleasant birthing options available.”

Garrison described a path taken by many other Quiverfull women, who progress further into the movement, first forswearing contraception and then hospitals, picking up additional, related convictions as part of an all-encompassing “home lifestyle” independent of what they consider the tyranny of outside “experts,” whether in medicine, the education system, or denominational leadership. Chmielewski’s description of herself in signing her online writing, “Homeschooler, Homebirther, Homechurcher,” is an apt summary of the lifestyle: one of deeply interwoven home industries, where a family is reliant on itself to as great an extent as possible, but ultimately always reliant on God.


Kathryn Joyce is the author of Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement (Beacon, 2009).
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The Duggar Family...
Posted by: Lily H. on Jul 23, 2009 2:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pictured above, DO NOT ascribe to the abovementioned lifestyle. As shown on TLC, Mrs. Duggar has given birth to her children in hospital settings.

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» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: Jaipurr
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: Cynic13
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: LindaB
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: illit
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: cberkland
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: illit
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: TennMom
» Large Families Posted by: Arlene
» RE: Large Families Posted by: illit
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: illit

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Subject to Social Services investigations?
Posted by: LeonBNJ on Jul 23, 2009 3:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any woman, and their husbands, who produces a stillbirth from such an extreme childbirth process should be investigated by the State social services and local proscutitutors as they have and are endangering the life of their children.

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» Never Was Posted by: Arlene

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Difference
Posted by: meadowsage on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please don't confuse this risky "Zion Home birth" with the movement in unassisted childbirth by women (often feminist, progressive, nonbelievers) who are sick of the sad unscientific state of obstetrics in this country. The utmost concern is the health and safety of mother and child and transfer to hospital would be done if problems arise that require hospital services.

Also be careful of the slippery slope one can go down if we start making people surrender to medical procedures against their will. There is so much greed and corruption in the medical establishment that there are often good reasons to refuse what they're offering.

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» RE: Difference Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Difference Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: Difference Posted by: kjoyce

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So Extreme!
Posted by: Janet Kay on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had my one daughter in Canada at a hospital and it was great, my (female) doctor was fantastic. The staff and she listened to my direction every step of the way. I had my second daughter in NJ using a midwife (female), doctor (male) back up. She was born on Thanksgiving and my pediatrician (male) came to my house that day and checked her out then sat down and had some food.
Child birth is not a disease but we should also use all available knowledge so this miracle can happen as safely as possible. Best in my opinion is having a baby home with the medical bus sitting outside waiting just in case it is needed. I believe they have something like that in England? But most Americans have so little regard for women and children I can't see that happening. For the most part it is a very macho existence here in the good ole boy USA. Football is treated with more respect than procreation.

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» RE: So Extreme! Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: So Extreme! Posted by: Janet Kay
» health care access Posted by: Kati

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Right to privacy
Posted by: Erik1968 on Jul 23, 2009 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Roe v Wade is based on the notion that people are allowed to make their own medical choices.

My friends were featured in NYT for unassisted birth. It works just fine.

http://is.gd/1INvN

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» Sorry about the shortened URL Posted by: Erik1968
» RE: ight to privacy Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: ight to privacy Posted by: babs
» It works just fine Posted by: TruthBeTold
» RE: ight to privacy Posted by: Kati

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Charge them? No.
Posted by: Annarisse on Jul 23, 2009 4:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's an irony here. The Quiverfull movement would love to see an end to abortion - and yet the arguments that would keep cases like this one out of jail are the same arguments that protect abortion. Giving rights to a fetus, even one that is about to be born, is opening up a pandora's box of problems.

I think home birth is an admirable thing and midwives are a fine option to have. I wish every state would start licensing midwives for home or hospital/birth centre births. But unassisted childbirth is ridiculous. Nobody has ever lived this way if they could help it - women have always had attendants for childbirth. While going it alone might work some of the time, on the whole, it's far riskier than a medically assisted home birth.

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» RE: Charge them? Yes! Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Charge them? No. Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: Charge them? No. Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Charge them? No. Posted by: Kati

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Stupid
Posted by: cberkland on Jul 23, 2009 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As much as I try to be tolerant of others, I can't help but see this as further proof of how religion makes people stupid. I'm so glad my wife and I are kind, giving, sharing, generous people completly free of any religious dogma and ridiculous beliefs.

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» RE: Stupid Posted by: terradea42
» RE: Stupid Posted by: dmaciewski

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God is a psychopath
Posted by: GPFrank on Jul 23, 2009 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wants you to put your complete trust and obedience in him and he will take care of you so that he can do whatever he wants such as

investing objects of his creation with horrible diseases such as Tourette's syndrome, Alzheimer and multiple myoma

creating holocausts from time to time such as
starting with the rampages such as by the Gideonites

and yet tries to terrify you with that fiction of his, Satan if you don't comply and give your soul to him.

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» RE: God is a psychopath Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: God is a psychopath Posted by: mhhd
» RE: God is a psychopath Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin

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Another Christian scam
Posted by: littlepitcher on Jul 23, 2009 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Leadership scams women with dubious groupthink, while utilizing Quiverfulls to acquire new social security numbers for fake ID on children which may or may not have been born and killed; selling babies in black-market adoptions, whether to child-hungry middleclass or to pedophiles; and killing the less-than-perfect.

In certain rural sections of the South, illegitimate and/or unwanted children are butchered and fed to the family in stews. Not every nutcase is as Christian as s/he appears.

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» baby stew? Posted by: aislinnluv

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These people are
Posted by: cdlepthien on Jul 23, 2009 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
blogging on computers - but they think basic medical technology for birthing mothers is ungodly? Wow.

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» RE: These people are Posted by: babs

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The lord giveth & the lord taketh away
Posted by: kww355 on Jul 23, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This may sound harsh, but did these people ever think that it was their "god's" will that the baby die? Perhaps he's telling them to stop having so many children.

The followers of this cult may have a quiverfull but their heads are empty.

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I don't get it
Posted by: katusha on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortion is murder? And neglect is not?

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» RE:You do have it Posted by: Changling
» RE: I don't get it Yes you do Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: I don't get it Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin

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What is odd about the movement
Posted by: Beck on Jul 23, 2009 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, this is Odd Thing #57, at least. But the actual Psalm that the word "quiverfull" comes from doesn't sound as if it has much to do with this way of life.

Ps.127
[0] A Song of Ascents. Of Solomon.
[1] Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city,
the watchman stays awake in vain.
[2] It is in vain that you rise up early
and go late to rest,
eating the bread of anxious toil;
for he gives to his beloved sleep.
[3] Lo, sons are a heritage from the LORD,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
[4] Like arrows in the hand of a warrior
are the sons of one's youth.
[5] Happy is the man who has
his quiver full of them!
He shall not be put to shame
when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.


In the first place, it mentions only sons, and "the sons of one's youth." Not children conceived as long as possible, as many times as possible, just "the sons of one's youth." And this part intrigues me: "[2] It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil; for he gives to his beloved sleep." I wonder how much the mother of more than, say, 4 kids gets to obey THAT part of the Psalm! Maybe these women should actually look up the verses that are imposed upon them. But it does seem as if Bible study is more meant to control what a person sees and doesn't see rather than to educate.

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» Easy explanation Posted by: kww355

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Give credit where it's due
Posted by: zipper696 on Jul 23, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They say:
"...a firm conviction that children are a blessing from the Lord and I strongly desired to have as many blessings as He chose to send my way.."
-------------------------
Um...based on this premise, shouldn't the woman simply sit and wait for the Spirit of the Lord to inseminate her?
Instead her Master, sorry I mean. husband jumps her bones every nine months or so for his carnal pleasure - or is he claiming to get a go ahead from God to act on his behalf?

Sounds like a rapist's excuse...

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If these cultists believe in God, they should realize God also gave us brains & common sense, yet...
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Jul 23, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they fail to use these gifts!

Why the hell would God want women to avoid heath care & take unnecessary risks in childbirth???

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NOBODY'S BUYING, WONDER WHY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 23, 2009 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This move back to primitive behavior has never caught on. It's a hard sell and for very good reason. If woman wants to take the risk that's one thing, but a newborn can run into all sorts of problems the most serious of which is usually a respiratory problem. While the comfort of being home is a nice thought, it's high risk for the child. And who keeps their records? How many newborn babies die and how is it recorded. Hospitals are required to report everything. But we're talking about crazy people here and those things don't matter to them. ANNA

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No Tax Breaks for More Than Two Children
Posted by: WomanRebel on Jul 23, 2009 8:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should not only limit tax deductions for children to two but should tax people for the goods and services they greedily suck up by having more than four children.

Further we should encourage remaining child free by giving a large payment to anyone willing to be sterilized as well as an annual tax break.

The women engaged in this movement are mentally ill. There needs to be a DSM entry for this form of masochistic slave like behavior.

Raising children in this Christ-Fascist cult lifestyle is perverted and sick.

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Natural selection, the fit survive.
Posted by: grindermonkey on Jul 23, 2009 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too bad intellect is out of the equation. Opposing thumb is all that remains. Breed slaves for the bankers.

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Is pregnancy a crime?
Posted by: abrunvand on Jul 23, 2009 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you think one dead baby is a tragedy, consider the level of tragedy that would result from criminalizing pregnancy!

If a fetus were legally defined as a "person" then abortions, miscarriage or still birth could all be prosecuted as a "crime", and any birth that goes wrong, even in a hospital, could wind up with someone accused of murder. So the choice to birth unassisted at home and the choice to end a pregnancy by abortion are just different aspects of a woman's right to chose.

In any case, the neonatal death rate in the U.s. was 6.7 per 1000 live births in 2006, and here's what the U.S. Centers for Disease Control has to say about that statistic: The U.S. infant mortality rate is higher than those in most other developed countries, and the gap between the U.S. infant mortality rate and the rates for the countries with the lowest infant mortality appears to be widening.

In other words, the "Quverfull" women are not just being paranoid-- U.S. Hospitals really are not doing such a stellar job of care for childbirth.

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» One Disagreement Posted by: dudelette
» RE: One Disagreement Posted by: Kati

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Primitive?
Posted by: juniorantique on Jul 23, 2009 10:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And we say the Taliban and Afghanis are primitive because ...? This group is nothing but another Taliban, in biblical disguise. Where in the original bible does it say people should live like this? No one can tell me, because an original bible does not exist anywhere ... except for the first five books, psalms, and proverbs! The bible has been translated, reinterpreted, expurgated, and retranslated so many times that no one knows what is original and what part came from WHOM! These people are scarier than the Taliban.

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But god Says.....
Posted by: marj on Jul 23, 2009 10:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it amazing how many people know what god thinks and says! Since they know, that must mean they consider themselves equal to god. And which god are we talking about anyway? The Lutheran god? The Catholic god? The Mormon god? Or the Hindu god? Maybe, Jim Jones's god?

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I'm a Darwinist on this one
Posted by: bkochandco on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a Darwinist on this one-let only the strongest survive. If these cult members want to kill their women and babies, let them. Soon there won't be any of them left.

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» Unfortunately, It Won't Work Posted by: dudelette

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VERY misleading article...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jul 23, 2009 12:20 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i am no lunatic home birther - i worked for ob/gyns in the "back office" for nearly 15 years and as a labor & delivery tech in a hospital for 3. this particular woman and her child most likely would have had a negative outcome even IF they had been in the hospital...it is VERY unfair to denounce home births citing a condition as rare and deadly as AFE.

what would the author's and alternet's reaction have been had this woman been a feminist opposed to the "medicalizing" and "masculinizing" of child birth - that is the wresting of midwifery from women at home and putting it in the hands of male doctors in the hosptial - rather than a "religious fanatic"? (i've known feminist "natural birthers" who have gone weeks past their due dates, too.)
what would the response have been had this woman simply had no insurance and therefore failed to obtain prenatal care and subsequently delivered at home? What of a woman's alleged reproductive choice?? Doesn't this woman have the right to choose, too??

truth of the matter is MOST births (at home or in a medical setting) go just fine...the reason women go to hospitals in this day and age is the "what if" factor...and yes, in labor & delivery when things go south they go south FAST...so, IF things go badly, you do want to be in the hospital or other medical setting...but that doesn't change the fact that MOST births go just fine...

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» most excellent comment Posted by: BlueBerry PickN

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In these cases, it is the successful acts of procreation...
Posted by: leafsong1 on Jul 23, 2009 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that cause the real harm, not the unsuccessful ones. When these willfully ignorant fanatics successfully reproduce, they spew babies into a world already severely overpopulated; when they die in childbirth, that harm is mitigated. Yes, I realize that these young women are being exploited, exploded, and discarded for fresh ones by their menfolk, and that is an injustice. But the fate of the children is of paramount importance, and their fate depends largely on how successful we are in limiting their numbers.

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Whatever happend to choice?
Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever happend to supporting the womans choice no matter what he choice is? Hypocrites are denouncing her home birth yet had the woman chosen a late term abortion they would support that choice.

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» RE: Whatever happend to choice? Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Whatever happend to choice? Posted by: MotherLodeBeth
» Off on a tangent Posted by: BlueTigress
» What Choice? Posted by: dudelette

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QUIVVER
Posted by: johnmont on Jul 23, 2009 4:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tHE BIG THREE RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED SO THAT MEN COULD GET ALL THE SEX THEY WANTED!!

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If they think god will provide for all the children they produce,
Posted by: SalB on Jul 23, 2009 11:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They should NOT be using hospitals, they should NOT be using anything modern science has provided to increase infant or maternal mortality rate. I disagree with the Quiverful movement wholeheartedly, and only when it is taken to the most extreme extent can it's full idiocy be exposed. They chose to get pregnant over and over again, and when that happens, babies are sometimes born dead. In the modern world, we forgot this, and quiverfuls refuse to live in said modern world.

They made their bed....

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All I Can Say Is....
Posted by: mushipeas on Jul 24, 2009 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. What is wrong with people? I thought humans were given minds to think rationally?! I am amazed at how absolutely insane people can be, but then I guess I'm tainted...

And TLC has multiple shows glorifying large families... If we were still a farming population it might not be so strange but when you're having kids (four average families worth) just because 'god' said so, when there are literally children without homes starving...it just amazes me. I struggle with whether I ought to have two kids solely because I consider it part of my responsibility to take care of my fellow man/woman... Yes, I'm referring here to that little problem called overpopulation, maybe not today...but it's only our species growing not the existing landmass which supports us.

And then I think should I just have a brood of rational children to procreate and out-compete the crazies, or is that irrational?

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who births?
Posted by: illit on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patriarchal religions relish female pain, subjugation, death, and degradation.

must make them feel big.

Seems a tad odd or Oedipal --


What I don't understand is why women of even the least bit of 'mind' put up with this?????

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Let me guess
Posted by: Ahimsa on Jul 24, 2009 4:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They oppose any kind of abortion under any circumstance, right?
Under the premise of the death of a "child", right?
How about if they let a real chIld die out of negligence and ignorance?
How is this treated by the law?

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» I'm sorry Posted by: Ahimsa

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Finally! A local media outlet picked this up!
Posted by: LT on Jul 24, 2009 6:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
linked text

Its not a 60 minutes piece (although there certainly is enough info to investigate for a good sized segment) but I'm glad that the issue is gaining local attention!

Bottom line - while not all CPM are morons, the ones in this case are - and they belong in jail!

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hr
Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 28, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

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Amazing!
Posted by: bobtr900 on Jul 30, 2009 1:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To me, it's just so amazing that all of these weird groups belong to the Repub party. The political party that totally worships money and power, above all else.

As a lib and libertarian I just think they should all do whatever they want, as long as I don't have to pay for it. EG, I don't like paying for their killing in Iraq for nothing other than corporate/oil profits. And yet they take my tax dollars away from me for their corporate wars of profit.

Next they will want to take my tax dollars from me for their theological wars.

As a lib and libertarian if they want to put their lives or their fetuses lives on the line that is their "right of privacy" to do that. But when my nieces and nephews have babies they wil go to a hospital and I'll support/ encourage that.

My grandmother was a midwife back in Italy but that was from a different time, more than 100yrs ago.

All I ask of these strange Repub groups(Quiverfull, neo-nazis, neo-confederates, etc) is that they just leave me and our nation alone.

But when strange religion is hooked up with strange economic principles that has become and is still a very dangerous mixture for our nation. Less than a hundred years ago this same conflation allowed the nazis and the fascists to receive a religious blessing, an imprimatur. As a result some 60 million people died, including the near genocide of some 6 million Jews. Never again!!! NEVER AGAIN!!! Once was far to many. Too many people looked the other way and it happened. But, never again.

The Repub party are the nazis of today. If we let our guard down WWII will happen again. WE'll have yet another war for economics and religion. And Satan will rise again. It will be called WWIII(in the ME) or WWIV(with Europe) or WWV(with Russia).

If we let our guard down the GOP, war mongers, haters, the Religious Right and the endlessly greedy will convince us that it is another "just war".

They did it before, and guaranteed, they'll do it again.

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thank you very much
Posted by: bluraysoft on Aug 4, 2009 8:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

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MKV to AVI Converter
Posted by: kagyhelen on Aug 11, 2009 7:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MKV to AVI Converter

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Zune Video Converter
Posted by: boay on Aug 17, 2009 6:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Zune Video Converter is really a fantastic Zune helper, which can convert video files to Zune supported formats without bothering you.

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Alternet Comments:

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The Duggar Family...
Posted by: Lily H. on Jul 23, 2009 2:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pictured above, DO NOT ascribe to the abovementioned lifestyle. As shown on TLC, Mrs. Duggar has given birth to her children in hospital settings.

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» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: Jaipurr
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: Cynic13
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: LindaB
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: illit
» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: cberkland
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» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: TennMom
» Large Families Posted by: Arlene
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» RE: The Duggar Family... Posted by: illit

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Subject to Social Services investigations?
Posted by: LeonBNJ on Jul 23, 2009 3:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any woman, and their husbands, who produces a stillbirth from such an extreme childbirth process should be investigated by the State social services and local proscutitutors as they have and are endangering the life of their children.

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» Never Was Posted by: Arlene

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Difference
Posted by: meadowsage on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please don't confuse this risky "Zion Home birth" with the movement in unassisted childbirth by women (often feminist, progressive, nonbelievers) who are sick of the sad unscientific state of obstetrics in this country. The utmost concern is the health and safety of mother and child and transfer to hospital would be done if problems arise that require hospital services.

Also be careful of the slippery slope one can go down if we start making people surrender to medical procedures against their will. There is so much greed and corruption in the medical establishment that there are often good reasons to refuse what they're offering.

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» RE: Difference Posted by: aislinnluv
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» RE: Difference Posted by: kjoyce

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So Extreme!
Posted by: Janet Kay on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had my one daughter in Canada at a hospital and it was great, my (female) doctor was fantastic. The staff and she listened to my direction every step of the way. I had my second daughter in NJ using a midwife (female), doctor (male) back up. She was born on Thanksgiving and my pediatrician (male) came to my house that day and checked her out then sat down and had some food.
Child birth is not a disease but we should also use all available knowledge so this miracle can happen as safely as possible. Best in my opinion is having a baby home with the medical bus sitting outside waiting just in case it is needed. I believe they have something like that in England? But most Americans have so little regard for women and children I can't see that happening. For the most part it is a very macho existence here in the good ole boy USA. Football is treated with more respect than procreation.

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» RE: So Extreme! Posted by: Annarisse
» RE: So Extreme! Posted by: Janet Kay
» health care access Posted by: Kati

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Right to privacy
Posted by: Erik1968 on Jul 23, 2009 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Roe v Wade is based on the notion that people are allowed to make their own medical choices.

My friends were featured in NYT for unassisted birth. It works just fine.

http://is.gd/1INvN

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» Sorry about the shortened URL Posted by: Erik1968
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» RE: ight to privacy Posted by: babs
» It works just fine Posted by: TruthBeTold
» RE: ight to privacy Posted by: Kati

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Charge them? No.
Posted by: Annarisse on Jul 23, 2009 4:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's an irony here. The Quiverfull movement would love to see an end to abortion - and yet the arguments that would keep cases like this one out of jail are the same arguments that protect abortion. Giving rights to a fetus, even one that is about to be born, is opening up a pandora's box of problems.

I think home birth is an admirable thing and midwives are a fine option to have. I wish every state would start licensing midwives for home or hospital/birth centre births. But unassisted childbirth is ridiculous. Nobody has ever lived this way if they could help it - women have always had attendants for childbirth. While going it alone might work some of the time, on the whole, it's far riskier than a medically assisted home birth.

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» RE: Charge them? Yes! Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Charge them? No. Posted by: mandiwrite
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Stupid
Posted by: cberkland on Jul 23, 2009 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As much as I try to be tolerant of others, I can't help but see this as further proof of how religion makes people stupid. I'm so glad my wife and I are kind, giving, sharing, generous people completly free of any religious dogma and ridiculous beliefs.

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God is a psychopath
Posted by: GPFrank on Jul 23, 2009 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wants you to put your complete trust and obedience in him and he will take care of you so that he can do whatever he wants such as

investing objects of his creation with horrible diseases such as Tourette's syndrome, Alzheimer and multiple myoma

creating holocausts from time to time such as
starting with the rampages such as by the Gideonites

and yet tries to terrify you with that fiction of his, Satan if you don't comply and give your soul to him.

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» RE: God is a psychopath Posted by: aislinnluv
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Another Christian scam
Posted by: littlepitcher on Jul 23, 2009 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Leadership scams women with dubious groupthink, while utilizing Quiverfulls to acquire new social security numbers for fake ID on children which may or may not have been born and killed; selling babies in black-market adoptions, whether to child-hungry middleclass or to pedophiles; and killing the less-than-perfect.

In certain rural sections of the South, illegitimate and/or unwanted children are butchered and fed to the family in stews. Not every nutcase is as Christian as s/he appears.

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» baby stew? Posted by: aislinnluv

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These people are
Posted by: cdlepthien on Jul 23, 2009 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
blogging on computers - but they think basic medical technology for birthing mothers is ungodly? Wow.

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» RE: These people are Posted by: babs

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The lord giveth & the lord taketh away
Posted by: kww355 on Jul 23, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This may sound harsh, but did these people ever think that it was their "god's" will that the baby die? Perhaps he's telling them to stop having so many children.

The followers of this cult may have a quiverfull but their heads are empty.

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I don't get it
Posted by: katusha on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortion is murder? And neglect is not?

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» RE:You do have it Posted by: Changling
» RE: I don't get it Yes you do Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: I don't get it Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin

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What is odd about the movement
Posted by: Beck on Jul 23, 2009 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, this is Odd Thing #57, at least. But the actual Psalm that the word "quiverfull" comes from doesn't sound as if it has much to do with this way of life.

Ps.127
[0] A Song of Ascents. Of Solomon.
[1] Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city,
the watchman stays awake in vain.
[2] It is in vain that you rise up early
and go late to rest,
eating the bread of anxious toil;
for he gives to his beloved sleep.
[3] Lo, sons are a heritage from the LORD,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
[4] Like arrows in the hand of a warrior
are the sons of one's youth.
[5] Happy is the man who has
his quiver full of them!
He shall not be put to shame
when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.


In the first place, it mentions only sons, and "the sons of one's youth." Not children conceived as long as possible, as many times as possible, just "the sons of one's youth." And this part intrigues me: "[2] It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil; for he gives to his beloved sleep." I wonder how much the mother of more than, say, 4 kids gets to obey THAT part of the Psalm! Maybe these women should actually look up the verses that are imposed upon them. But it does seem as if Bible study is more meant to control what a person sees and doesn't see rather than to educate.

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» Easy explanation Posted by: kww355

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Give credit where it's due
Posted by: zipper696 on Jul 23, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They say:
"...a firm conviction that children are a blessing from the Lord and I strongly desired to have as many blessings as He chose to send my way.."
-------------------------
Um...based on this premise, shouldn't the woman simply sit and wait for the Spirit of the Lord to inseminate her?
Instead her Master, sorry I mean. husband jumps her bones every nine months or so for his carnal pleasure - or is he claiming to get a go ahead from God to act on his behalf?

Sounds like a rapist's excuse...

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If these cultists believe in God, they should realize God also gave us brains & common sense, yet...
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Jul 23, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they fail to use these gifts!

Why the hell would God want women to avoid heath care & take unnecessary risks in childbirth???

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NOBODY'S BUYING, WONDER WHY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 23, 2009 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This move back to primitive behavior has never caught on. It's a hard sell and for very good reason. If woman wants to take the risk that's one thing, but a newborn can run into all sorts of problems the most serious of which is usually a respiratory problem. While the comfort of being home is a nice thought, it's high risk for the child. And who keeps their records? How many newborn babies die and how is it recorded. Hospitals are required to report everything. But we're talking about crazy people here and those things don't matter to them. ANNA

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No Tax Breaks for More Than Two Children
Posted by: WomanRebel on Jul 23, 2009 8:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should not only limit tax deductions for children to two but should tax people for the goods and services they greedily suck up by having more than four children.

Further we should encourage remaining child free by giving a large payment to anyone willing to be sterilized as well as an annual tax break.

The women engaged in this movement are mentally ill. There needs to be a DSM entry for this form of masochistic slave like behavior.

Raising children in this Christ-Fascist cult lifestyle is perverted and sick.

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Natural selection, the fit survive.
Posted by: grindermonkey on Jul 23, 2009 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too bad intellect is out of the equation. Opposing thumb is all that remains. Breed slaves for the bankers.

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Is pregnancy a crime?
Posted by: abrunvand on Jul 23, 2009 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you think one dead baby is a tragedy, consider the level of tragedy that would result from criminalizing pregnancy!

If a fetus were legally defined as a "person" then abortions, miscarriage or still birth could all be prosecuted as a "crime", and any birth that goes wrong, even in a hospital, could wind up with someone accused of murder. So the choice to birth unassisted at home and the choice to end a pregnancy by abortion are just different aspects of a woman's right to chose.

In any case, the neonatal death rate in the U.s. was 6.7 per 1000 live births in 2006, and here's what the U.S. Centers for Disease Control has to say about that statistic: The U.S. infant mortality rate is higher than those in most other developed countries, and the gap between the U.S. infant mortality rate and the rates for the countries with the lowest infant mortality appears to be widening.

In other words, the "Quverfull" women are not just being paranoid-- U.S. Hospitals really are not doing such a stellar job of care for childbirth.

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» One Disagreement Posted by: dudelette
» RE: One Disagreement Posted by: Kati

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Primitive?
Posted by: juniorantique on Jul 23, 2009 10:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And we say the Taliban and Afghanis are primitive because ...? This group is nothing but another Taliban, in biblical disguise. Where in the original bible does it say people should live like this? No one can tell me, because an original bible does not exist anywhere ... except for the first five books, psalms, and proverbs! The bible has been translated, reinterpreted, expurgated, and retranslated so many times that no one knows what is original and what part came from WHOM! These people are scarier than the Taliban.

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But god Says.....
Posted by: marj on Jul 23, 2009 10:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it amazing how many people know what god thinks and says! Since they know, that must mean they consider themselves equal to god. And which god are we talking about anyway? The Lutheran god? The Catholic god? The Mormon god? Or the Hindu god? Maybe, Jim Jones's god?

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I'm a Darwinist on this one
Posted by: bkochandco on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a Darwinist on this one-let only the strongest survive. If these cult members want to kill their women and babies, let them. Soon there won't be any of them left.

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» Unfortunately, It Won't Work Posted by: dudelette

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VERY misleading article...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jul 23, 2009 12:20 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i am no lunatic home birther - i worked for ob/gyns in the "back office" for nearly 15 years and as a labor & delivery tech in a hospital for 3. this particular woman and her child most likely would have had a negative outcome even IF they had been in the hospital...it is VERY unfair to denounce home births citing a condition as rare and deadly as AFE.

what would the author's and alternet's reaction have been had this woman been a feminist opposed to the "medicalizing" and "masculinizing" of child birth - that is the wresting of midwifery from women at home and putting it in the hands of male doctors in the hosptial - rather than a "religious fanatic"? (i've known feminist "natural birthers" who have gone weeks past their due dates, too.)
what would the response have been had this woman simply had no insurance and therefore failed to obtain prenatal care and subsequently delivered at home? What of a woman's alleged reproductive choice?? Doesn't this woman have the right to choose, too??

truth of the matter is MOST births (at home or in a medical setting) go just fine...the reason women go to hospitals in this day and age is the "what if" factor...and yes, in labor & delivery when things go south they go south FAST...so, IF things go badly, you do want to be in the hospital or other medical setting...but that doesn't change the fact that MOST births go just fine...

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» most excellent comment Posted by: BlueBerry PickN

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In these cases, it is the successful acts of procreation...
Posted by: leafsong1 on Jul 23, 2009 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that cause the real harm, not the unsuccessful ones. When these willfully ignorant fanatics successfully reproduce, they spew babies into a world already severely overpopulated; when they die in childbirth, that harm is mitigated. Yes, I realize that these young women are being exploited, exploded, and discarded for fresh ones by their menfolk, and that is an injustice. But the fate of the children is of paramount importance, and their fate depends largely on how successful we are in limiting their numbers.

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Whatever happend to choice?
Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever happend to supporting the womans choice no matter what he choice is? Hypocrites are denouncing her home birth yet had the woman chosen a late term abortion they would support that choice.

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» RE: Whatever happend to choice? Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Whatever happend to choice? Posted by: MotherLodeBeth
» Off on a tangent Posted by: BlueTigress
» What Choice? Posted by: dudelette

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QUIVVER
Posted by: johnmont on Jul 23, 2009 4:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tHE BIG THREE RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED SO THAT MEN COULD GET ALL THE SEX THEY WANTED!!

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If they think god will provide for all the children they produce,
Posted by: SalB on Jul 23, 2009 11:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They should NOT be using hospitals, they should NOT be using anything modern science has provided to increase infant or maternal mortality rate. I disagree with the Quiverful movement wholeheartedly, and only when it is taken to the most extreme extent can it's full idiocy be exposed. They chose to get pregnant over and over again, and when that happens, babies are sometimes born dead. In the modern world, we forgot this, and quiverfuls refuse to live in said modern world.

They made their bed....

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All I Can Say Is....
Posted by: mushipeas on Jul 24, 2009 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. What is wrong with people? I thought humans were given minds to think rationally?! I am amazed at how absolutely insane people can be, but then I guess I'm tainted...

And TLC has multiple shows glorifying large families... If we were still a farming population it might not be so strange but when you're having kids (four average families worth) just because 'god' said so, when there are literally children without homes starving...it just amazes me. I struggle with whether I ought to have two kids solely because I consider it part of my responsibility to take care of my fellow man/woman... Yes, I'm referring here to that little problem called overpopulation, maybe not today...but it's only our species growing not the existing landmass which supports us.

And then I think should I just have a brood of rational children to procreate and out-compete the crazies, or is that irrational?

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who births?
Posted by: illit on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patriarchal religions relish female pain, subjugation, death, and degradation.

must make them feel big.

Seems a tad odd or Oedipal --


What I don't understand is why women of even the least bit of 'mind' put up with this?????

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Let me guess
Posted by: Ahimsa on Jul 24, 2009 4:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They oppose any kind of abortion under any circumstance, right?
Under the premise of the death of a "child", right?
How about if they let a real chIld die out of negligence and ignorance?
How is this treated by the law?

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» I'm sorry Posted by: Ahimsa

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Finally! A local media outlet picked this up!
Posted by: LT on Jul 24, 2009 6:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
linked text

Its not a 60 minutes piece (although there certainly is enough info to investigate for a good sized segment) but I'm glad that the issue is gaining local attention!

Bottom line - while not all CPM are morons, the ones in this case are - and they belong in jail!

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hr
Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 28, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

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Amazing!
Posted by: bobtr900 on Jul 30, 2009 1:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To me, it's just so amazing that all of these weird groups belong to the Repub party. The political party that totally worships money and power, above all else.

As a lib and libertarian I just think they should all do whatever they want, as long as I don't have to pay for it. EG, I don't like paying for their killing in Iraq for nothing other than corporate/oil profits. And yet they take my tax dollars away from me for their corporate wars of profit.

Next they will want to take my tax dollars from me for their theological wars.

As a lib and libertarian if they want to put their lives or their fetuses lives on the line that is their "right of privacy" to do that. But when my nieces and nephews have babies they wil go to a hospital and I'll support/ encourage that.

My grandmother was a midwife back in Italy but that was from a different time, more than 100yrs ago.

All I ask of these strange Repub groups(Quiverfull, neo-nazis, neo-confederates, etc) is that they just leave me and our nation alone.

But when strange religion is hooked up with strange economic principles that has become and is still a very dangerous mixture for our nation. Less than a hundred years ago this same conflation allowed the nazis and the fascists to receive a religious blessing, an imprimatur. As a result some 60 million people died, including the near genocide of some 6 million Jews. Never again!!! NEVER AGAIN!!! Once was far to many. Too many people looked the other way and it happened. But, never again.

The Repub party are the nazis of today. If we let our guard down WWII will happen again. WE'll have yet another war for economics and religion. And Satan will rise again. It will be called WWIII(in the ME) or WWIV(with Europe) or WWV(with Russia).

If we let our guard down the GOP, war mongers, haters, the Religious Right and the endlessly greedy will convince us that it is another "just war".

They did it before, and guaranteed, they'll do it again.

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thank you very much
Posted by: bluraysoft on Aug 4, 2009 8:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

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MKV to AVI Converter
Posted by: kagyhelen on Aug 11, 2009 7:50 PM   
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MKV to AVI Converter

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Zune Video Converter
Posted by: boay on Aug 17, 2009 6:45 PM   
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Zune Video Converter is really a fantastic Zune helper, which can convert video files to Zune supported formats without bothering you.

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