You do know that your son's name -- Theo -- means "god" in Greek? And that yours (Daniel) and your other son's name (Elijah) both contain the Hebrew elements for "G-d" as well?

Just seems a bit late to start demanding a religion-free zone. I wonder if your sons would be better served with some middle ground rather than two endlessly circling, competing parental narratives?

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While my husband and I don't practice any of the
religions we were raised with, my in-laws are fervent.
So sometimes my son will attend a family trip to
church.

I am glad this is rare. I don't think you can do
anything but get into very difficult discussions about
what a child learns there, if you don't believe it
yourself. All churches are extremely good at packaging
their message to be entertaining and interesting to kids,
who are real sponges for didactic information.

I left a music group near Christmastime when a boy
a bit older than my son started shouting out the lyrics
to the ever more common religious songs being played -
I knew I didn't want my son yelling out "Thank you God!"
like this other boy was. (Churches do have some of
the nicest songs, I admit :-) Along with the military, I must add.

I think the only way to keep their minds open is to
keep them from the indoctrination - when they're older
they can learn about religion with their brains
instead of their emotions. Not sure how you can
handle the "mixed marriage" issue. When a child
does something with a parent, a strong bond is formed.

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"Panicked by the consequences, an agnostic is re-thinking this business of mating with an idiot."

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Please send me two of everything you have. So nice to be able to shop and read alternet at the same time. I wish you would include more pictures of your products, and testimonials. And do you have any discount coupons?

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your kid should be reading histories of the Jews(age appropriate are available) and histories of what religion did to people for thousands of years-torture, etc. Brutal? Yeah. But religion is the dictatorship with the longest history of all. Also don't hesitate to tell your kid, 'people get sad, crazy, scared. they need to make up fairy tales to get over the fact life sucks and we're all gonna die". Play Hardball, my friend. The Church doesn't compromise, why should you?

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Basically I would suggest seeing if they are interested in anything fantastical, science fiction, child horror or the like. Well anything that is quite obviously a work of fiction.

Really its not up to you or your wife to demand / select any religion or anti religious views for your children, its upto them to make their own minds up. So just give them a wide range of religions and obvious fictions and then trust them to try and seperate the truth from the fiction.

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I actually quite like the idea of introducing your children to many different religious traditions.
Religion has one major advantage over secular traditions: they have great stories.
Rather than reading some intellect-heaving philosophy, read them some of the myths from other traditions. If they think God made the world, read them a story that explains things differently.

There are plenty of good myths around. Personally, I like the norse mythology, and the hindu have some great stuff too. Beyond that, there are a great number of smaller tales from various cultures, not really incorporated into a larger myth-structure.

Instead of beating them over the head with some particular point, just tell them a story. They'll listen.

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I wonder about an agnostic parent agreeing to such an extremely Old Testament name as Elijah.

And if you want to get technical, Theo means GOD in ancient Greek. The name was originally short for Theodore ("lover of God") but I wouldn't suppose many people after "Alvin and the Chipmunks" named their kid Theodore rather than Theo.

Heh heh - wait til someone informs little Theo of this.

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What the fuck is it about the Bible that has everyone so snowed? Is there anyone who claims to believe in God and Jesus who doesn't pretty much pick and choose which parts to "follow" and which to conveniently ignore? (Yeah, ok there are a few, they are fucking freaks like Fred Phelps and that crazy ass Bachman woman from Minnesota.)

So what's the point of having a text that is so revered and respected, but when it doesn't fit our lifestyle in the moment it apparently isn't the word of god enough?

Please, let's just get over this Bible idiocy already. It's 2000 years old and so are its morals. Let's leave it in the museum where it belongs.

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I've been reading alternet posts for a while now but I've never really been compelled to register and comment until now, with this post. I too am in a mixed marriage and have come across this situation more than I would have liked. My daughter is just 3 years old, but her indoctrination is well under way. Her mother, my beloved wife, has taught her faith songs, a couple of prayers and has gone over the basic cast of characters in catholic mithology. My wife is not even that devoted to church, but you know how it goes, she'd rather teach our kid to believe and fear and be thankful than to have her grow up "uninsured". I have taken my time with the issue and have even talked about it a bit with her, but no matter what otherwise doubt inducing literature, documentary or what-have-you I present to my wife, she will think about it and discuss and just when I think she's one step closer to secularism and a religion free zone, I'll catch her singing gospel with my little girl.
Well, I guess I still have some time.
And I would like to add a book series to the suggestion below about the Potter books: His Dark Materials, by Phillip Pullman. They are essentially literature for kids (in europe) and are not half bad. I thought they were pretty cool reading at the time, though I didn't care much for the final volume. Still, there are some very nice ideas in the trilogy and as far as fantasy goes, it is a very good mainstream option.

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Thanks for posting this article, Alternet!

My husband and I do not have children nor plan to have any, but one reason (of many) that I am happy with this arrangement is the kids and religion question. Both of us were raised in conservative christian homes, and our mothers would be itching to indoctrinate any offspring. My worst fear is that if I equipped them with the freedom to choose a fiction, they might end up still being devout in the sect that I completely reject, or might want to join any conservative group that is intent on separating the saved from the lost so that I'd end up losing my children because I didn't share their faith. I mean, the religion I was raised in told me that my grandmother was going to hell because she was the "wrong kind" of christian. I guess this is like drugs and sex or even sports really. You can do what you can to turn a kid toward something or away from something else, but there are no guarantees. I agree with some other posters though that the writer of this article is probably starting too late to counterbalance a Catholic upbringing. But the kids might even go through biblical phases and then outgrow them. However, given the mother's views, this father is also going to have to review the likeliness that these kids really will be Catholic.

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I can remember at some point in my childhood when I did not make the distinction between the stories that were read from the bible and Jack and the Beanstalk kind of stories. I literally believed that Jack could climb that beanstalk, just like Jesus could walk on water. Needless to say I am now an Atheist.
Children do need strict guidance regarding basic morality but it can be done with basic philosophy and by example from their parents.

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You can read a lot of it online. Wright wonders why God/Allah changes his mood, advising his followers to smite unbelievers in one instance and to be tolerant in another.

The more grounded and knowledgeable the author is, the more he can help his sons to apply critical thinking whether or not they choose to be religious.

Darwin did not become an atheist, perhaps because his wife was a believer but perhaps he just decided that the question of whether or not God existed was one he was not required to answer.

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How Do You Know It's True is another great book.

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To follow up on my previous comment: I became an Atheist starting at the age of 16 after a momentous event at the Church my family went to. Although I've forgiven the participants, it lead me to analyze what I believed thereafter and it was like peeling layers of clothing of bondage for me, and a need to accept only logic and freedom from falsehoods in all areas of life. Only from lack of knowledge of a subject can one be fooled into believing lies and misinformation such as in politics.
Some in my family, often try to talk me into re-entering the Church, especially since they believe that it was only that one event that made me leave it. What they don't understand is that there is no turning back for me because once you see the absurdity of the dogma, one doesn't need it or want it. I can't convince my family that I'm not angry at anyone over it. I'm happy to have seen the light so early on in my life.

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Don't ask how you can help your child become a freethinker. Ask how you can help your child learn to think for himself, period. If the result of that thought process leads him to a faith in God, that's something you'll have to accept. Parents don't get to force their children into the molds they choose.

I know something about this - I was raised by an atheist father, yet I'm a Christian. Both of my adult children are non-believers. We raised them in church, yet always encouraged them to come to their own reasoned conclusions, and they have. I'm very proud of them for that, even though I have a different perspective on the issue.

Mr. Postel, you express concern that your six year old son approaches matters of faith literally. Well, six year olds are literal creatures - he'll move past that. But I strongly caution you that if you keep an attitude like this one:

I don't want to tell my children what to believe or not to believe, but I would be displeased and disappointed if they were to embrace conventional religious views.

You will be disappointed, because what it says to me is that you have a vision for how your children should think, and if they depart from it, they risk your displeasure. They'll pick up on that, and believe me, smart kids know how to tell their parents what they want to hear. You don't want that. You want your kids to feel safe showing you who they really are.

Don't prescribe a reading list, just prescribe reading. Let them follow their interests wherever they go - even if that means religious reading. Engage your children in dialogue, not interrogation sessions - if you attack their faith, they'll likely just get stubborn and cling to it harder.

And one final thought - if raising kids to hold a certain world view, whether religious or atheist or whatever, is important to someone, it's probably a good idea to choose a partner of the same world view.

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Interesting article. By being so intent on turning your children against Christianity(or any religion), aren't you really making your agnosticism a "religion" in itself? Your efforts certainly resemble a "crusade". I too sometimes still question, but by looking around...I have been led back to the church. Better to err on the "safe side" maybe? If there is a God and an afterlife...what are you taking away from your children. They will be forgiven....will you?

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Kids below the age of ten or eleven are still very concrete figures. They can't easily grasp concepts of the cosmos - which is why a six-year-old would ask about God creating something small and familiar like a butterfly. They aren't ready for the really big questions yet, and pushing them to think about those questions right now is somewhat doomed.

However, kids who read and think and discuss as they grow up are likely to end up learning how to think critically. Give them time, and give them access to the ideas of critical literacy: Whose point of view is expressed here, and whose is missing? What does this author want me to think or feel or believe? What proof do I have that what is said here is true?

I'd steer clear of religious texts when asking these questions, for the moment, and let them come around to this way of thinking over time.

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How can you influence religious people who continue to believe their traditional ideas even when they are proven either false or highly unlikely? The Genesis story of an immediate creation in seven days is disproved by evolutionary biology. Biblical stories like the flood or the Passover from Egypt have no physical evidence to back them up. There is no historical evidence for Abraham, the purported father for the religions of the Mideast. There no evidence for a creating being, a moral creating being, a heaven or a hell. And one of the greatest evidences for a real lack of belief is the murdering, the adultering, the homosexuality,the bearing of false witness, the taking of the Lord’s name in vain, the stealing, and the lack of charity among the masses who say they believe in the holy books of the religions of Abraham. How can we change the non-verifiable opinions with political techniques
Religion is a simple way to gain identity and to separate, and feel superior, to others. It may well be that this need for esteem from others or the feeling of power one gets from "knowing the truth."
It is difficult for people to try to educate in a "dumbed down" society but the books mentioned are a good start toward developing a thinking mind--and the questions raised as they experience life should make them question the god of the Mideast.
As they grow older they may profit from reading and discussing the sources of morality, both religious and non-religious, in Book 4 of the popular free ebook series titled "And Gulliver Returns" at http://andgulliverreturns.info

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Tell your son to explain the differences between the Bible. Note that the oldest, and if it could be called authentic book of the Bible, Mark, makes no mention of divinity. That was itnerpreted later.

Explain that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet who thought the end of the world was coming. After that didn't happen, it was his followers that reinterpreted his message.

Explain that the Hebrews received the concept of monotheism from the Persians and Zoroastrianism.

Ask him why would he want to follow a deity that would kill innocent children like himself?

Then you can logically tell him that the Bible is a collection of fables and myths from superstitious peoples, and in totality, is nothing more than a myth.

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I happen to agree with Richard Dawkins about religious indoctrination of children as a form of child abuse. But I also understand how kids, with their naturally imaginative, playful minds are very easily taken in by the parables and fairy tales contained in the Bible and other religious texts. It's no wonder that they would rather read stories of magic and miracles rather than any down-to-earth prosaic portrayals of truth and reality. The exception is the especially "gifted" child who has a natural inclination to question authority at an early age. Most of us, as developing kids, do arrive at a stage of question if not outright rebellion in our teenage years which is the best opportunity we have to break away from that sort of indoctrination once and for all. Unfortunately, the prospect of abandoning beliefs that had been hard wired into our brains during our impressionable, formative years is overwhelmingly frightening for most of us. Religion never properly prepares us for the truth of our mortality. And so most adults, after living through a phase of questioning and rebellion, seem to return to the comfort of childish fantasies rather than delving any deeper into rationalist thinking. Sartre acknowledged the deep terror involved in accepting the reality of the nonexistence of a God, but insisted that a true existentialist does not use it as an excuse to invent comforting, irrational alternatives to the truth. Once kids are indoctrinated, it seems the best we can do is be there when they come to the point where they naturally question it and try to help them get past the initial angst of enlightenment and to resist the temptation to regress back into the comfort of the childish delusions that religion provides.

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Because that's all this is about. If the man cared about the well-being of his children, he would be more open, and less adversarial.

The author states that he doesn't want to tell his children what to believe, and then goes on to say how disturbed he would be if they had conventional religious views, and acts on his displeasure by giving unnecessarily cold and ambiguous answers to his child's innocent questions. Nothing like destroying a lovely moment by interjecting a little east coast angst, not to mention creating family pathology by pitting himself against Mom in a little boy's struggle to understand the nature of his world. Who's the doctrinaire parent, really?


I'm also disturbed by the joyless, negative nature of the responses that this man is giving his son. He says, uh-uh, no God, and offers....nothing. He could manage, even now, to give his son an alternative way to think ("But butterflies have a job in nature, and they evolved that way for a reason,"...."We don't need to be told by God to be good to other people. It comes naturally because we love others and they love us,") without pulling the rug out from under his wife and other main authority figures his child has no choice but to believe and is too young to challenge.

His children have natures, thoughts and needs of their own. Their ultimate beliefs will be formed in their own hearts and minds. In my experience, example attracts, unfeeling indoctrination repels.

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He has a lot of time to think it all over and decide for himself. I suggest that you provide a wide variety of books and magazines, especially science and science-fiction. There are some good kid-level science magazines out there, as well as books in the children's section of your local bookstore.

I was raised Catholic, was "drafted" into the Baptists and decided it was all BS in my 30's. So I came to freethinking and my stand on religion honestly - by sorting it out and thinking about it. Your son can, too. Don't expect immediate results and expect Mom to "fight back" with all kinds of enticing "kiddie Christer" scare porn like Chick leaflets and VeggieTales.
Just make sure he has access to lots of different viewpoints on the subject.

Ultimately, this is a decision he'll have to come to on his own. If you try too hard, he will eventually rebel (as his Mom may find out the hard way).

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My ex-husband and his mother tried to do a number on my children, taking them to evangelical, pentacostal, holy rolling, tongue-speaking Assembly of God every Sunday. But my children were intelligent, thoughtful individuals. I was not shy in my opinion of religion, and I, on many occasions, told my children flat out that religion is for fearful sheeple who want to remain ignorant. My kids saw me as a smart, independent woman who loved education, and they saw their father and grandmother as silly, racist nitwits who would say things like "Satan planted fossils in the earth to mislead God's followers." It really wasn't difficult to lead by example in that situation.

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I was raised in a small, liberal protestant church with my 6 siblings. Two of us ended up born-again Christians. One of them still is, one fizzled. Three ended up semi-pagan. Only one attends a church anything like our childhood church. My husband and several friends were raised strict Catholics, school and everything. None attend Catholic church now.

When my son was four, he asked a series of interesting questions, beginning with, "Why do the Cheerios run away from the spoon?" and ending with "Do I decide what I do, or does God decide what I do?" He's now an atheist. It affects my happiness in no way at all, although I have to admit I'd be bothered if he had ended up a rightwing, born-again Christian, and I didn't like it when he had a girlfriend who pushed Catholicism on him. But becoming Catholic would have been his choice, not mine.

There are so many things to be bothered about regarding this article and some of the comments. Not understanding anything about young kids and the questions they ask (you know, the curiosity is the important thing; they don't stick with the answers you give them for life),or thinking the child needs intellectual ANSWERS, a fact-filled, parent-led lecture, instead of an interesting discussion that takes its own course. Not acknowledging the path that belief or disbelief takes, but thinking it ends up being what you're told by one or two significant people. Trying to properly program your kids to your satisfaction. As someone else already mentioned, the child is picking up on all of this. He is seeing from both parents that what he believes affects their emotions a great deal.

No one has any answers regarding all this. No one attempting to impose either a believer or non- view on their child seems willing to dive into WHY humans, after thousands of years of existence, had the idea of something bigger even occur to them, let alone start ritualizing life and making images of that bigger idea. To many of the atheists here, you'd think religion began with the Hebrew Bible, not that the Hebrew Bible was a response to something already long in existence. It's easy to argue against religion when you begin late in its history, which is where the Bible falls. How did any human ever think big thoughts to begin with? How did it start? Progress? How did OTHER small tribes pick up on it? How did it become artful? Why did the Bible forbid graven images? The wrong questions get asked, the wrong judgements made.

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Oddly enough much in the article from the father's side sounded like he really needed to go to the Unitarian Universalist church. As a teacher of religious education in this church our children are free thinkers but they are taught about every religion including thinking about atheism and these children/youth are the most well adjusted children I have had the privilege to teach. They actually think for themselves. Many of the forefathers were Unitarian, they believed in religious freedom. Maybe dad should check out www.uua.org

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My heart goes out to your kids, because you don't seem to be speaking to the other adult in this relationship, your wife. I assume when you married her you promised to bring up the kids Catholic. This is no small matter, but it's the deal YOU made. She speaks to them in Spanish, you in English. In what language do you speak to her? Keep in mind that if she takes them to church, and you undermine that, you are also undermining her. That's not a very humane thing to do to your kids.

Maybe you should be having conversations with your wife about religion. Trouble is, for all your non-belief, you do not seem well informed. Not all religions are based on the same dogma, and the Catholic church is not the Pentecostals or the Presbyterians, etc. Not all religions have dogma.

I was raised Baptist and married a Jew, and neither of us felt comfortable raising our child in our religion. I wish we'd found a Unitarian Universalist congregation sooner, because they have lots of mixed faith couples, and they're into an exploration of many paths and not pushing any supernatural beliefs.

Whatever you do, I hope you do it with love. Try focusing on the butterfly and not who made it. It's an excellent entrance into the topic of lifespans and mortality, which is what I think your kid was getting at.

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Give the children a break. Simply do your best to raise thinking, literate individuals rather than lemmings.

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I agree with the comments encouraging the author to teach the children how to think. Not necessarily think about religion or philosophy, just think. Encourage them to read. I assume the children do not attend parochial school. A secular education, free of the daily indoctrination and limited scope often found in parochial schools, will promote a more open mind, and the diversity of students will better promote tolerance.
I also agree with the comment on not showing displeasure or disappointment in their curiosity about religion. They will be as curious, in time, about their father's beliefs as they are about religion. (Which means Dad better have his act together when the questioning begins.) It is important they recognize his unconditional love and tolerance of faith based philosophy.
I also firmly believe the author needs to educate himself on issues currently facing Catholics, and Christians as a whole, in our society. He needs to know who is indoctrinating his children. There are many kinds of Catholics, many types of Christians, about in the world. Some are good, some are not so good. Some are downright evil. Dad needs to now exactly who is speaking for God to his children.
He needs to know the order, the philosophy, and the activism, if any, attributed to the particular religious identity to which his children are being exposed. In that way he can better gauge his response and feel more secure about their safety. Faith is not necessarily a bad thing. Organized religion, like any social institution, needs to be examined closely to reveal purpose and intent, and not merely accepted on face value.

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This is a ticklish situation... however, it's a good opportunity to explain and explore with your child(ren).

There are some very good posts here, and I like the books by Campbell, etc that are suggested.
Your son is old enough to also read with you Black Elk Speaks.

When you child askes if Jesus really made the butterflies, say, no. Tell your child that God creating the earth's creatures is one myth people came up with to explain life, before we had the scientific knowledge otherwise.
Go into Aborigina, tribal, eastern and other creation myths for their charm and beauty. But be certain to include the wonders of evolution in those readings. Explain the beauty of life all around us, how it's not to be limited by bronze age understandings. Carl Sagan was extremely adept at bringing the glory of the cosmos to human understanding.
I recommend reading or watching Cosmos together.

Also, once you begin pointing out the Bible's contradictions and errancies, this will stick with your offspring even when in church. Let your explanations be the honest ones.

As far as your children becoming religious, let them explore, but continue educating them at the same time. They will be critical thinkers.

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but try to do it in a way that doesn't make you come off as a ranting pedagogue. my family dragged me and my siblings to the episcopal church, but by age 9 i had decided that i couldn't believe in god. i had 4 intelligent children, in 2 sets, and each time i pondered the problem of what to teach them, how to convey what i believed without bludgeoning them with it. the solution to me seemed to be, when there is an opportunity, say, "this is what some people believe; this is what i believe." that works for a lot of things besides religion, by the way - politics, as well. my firstborn was baptised in an alabama church by her paternal grandparents (i was not in attendance); her sister never got that "privilege". the third and fourth were taken by their dad (different husband) to one of those baptist churches where people stand up, wave their arms about, and sing new age religious songs (the kind that tv adverts hawk). i tried very hard not to let my emotions creep into discussions about what they were being taught. the older two (both graduates with honors from university) have come to their own beliefs and neither attends church. the younger two eventually saw through the absurdity of the minister (reverend "sal"), who likes to take secular pop songs like those by evanescence and convert them to religious purpose. all have their own ideas about the universe. just tell them what you believe. it doesn't have to be strident.

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People forget that Jesus was a free-thinker, that Jesus was a political radical who was crucified for his political and social views, like trying to heal the lame and feed the poor.

There's a lot more to Christianity than evangelical literalism.

If Christians were more like Jesus -- more loving, more caring -- we'd have a lot better world.

After all, how many of us are willing to die for what we believe is true and right and righteous?

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how about exposing your child to the creation stories from other cultures?
perhaps rather than try to convince a child that there is no god it would be easier to introduce him to the idea that all cultures have different ideas about god.

long ago there was a collection of creation stories published called
"Alpha" by Charles Long and Joseph Henderson.
He also published "The Two Hands of God" (stories of polarity, good and evil)
and "The Wisdom of the Serpent." (stories of death and rebirth)
possibly now out of print, but I think you can find myths and stories from other cultures almost anywhere; any decent book of folklore and legend.

or read the Illiad and the Odyssey, and read Beowulf and Gilgamesh.
If your child can read the Bible, he can certainly read any of these, or you can read with him or to him.

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As someone who was raised as a Catholic including Catholic grammar school I think it helped form my morals and values that I operate under today, even though I do not go to church and actually quit going to church when I was 16. I am now 52. Have been a union organizer for 30 years. The church taught me that we are responsible for each other. I operate under that philosophy today..to me "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me" and "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" are saying the same thing. I woudl suggest that if your children are going to church with their mom...you should see if it's a "liberal" Catholic church or a conservative one...that could make a difference

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You can't control how your kid will turn out beliefwise. Madeline Murray O'Hare gets the Supreme Court to ban school prayer; next thing she knows, her kid gets Born Again. Lots of Jewish kids wound up as Hare Krishnas. My own mom did her best to raise me Catholic; the middle of my one year in a Jesuit college was when I voted with my feet from Holy Mother Church.

If you and your wife have a good marriage, the enduring lesson your son will learn from that -- with a little luck -- is that people who think differently can live together okay.

Just keep your fingers crossed he doesn't go off the deep end in Scientology. :-(

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GOD WILL PUNISH YOU ! Oh wait, GOD IS ALREADY PUNISHING AMERICA TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!!! RRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR !!! Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta getta fucking beer or two !! GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR !!!!

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That is the greatest hindsight advice ever heard.
But nowadays most Catholics stay with it more for the drama, spectacle and architecture. A mature person growing up in a modern society would hear that other voice that says, "question authority". Some history might help such as of the Popes and antipopes and that the doctrine of 'Infallibility' of the Pope is less than 200 years old. Likewise of the 'assumption ' .

Then the child should hear about "real" and "make believe" . (The child will, anyhow for some time conflate "believe" and "make believe") and stump both parents.
For example, the transubstantiation is good "make believe". Ninety-nine and nine tenths of people in mass celebration don't actually "see" the wine becoming blood.
( Coming from a Jewish background I perceive that as barbaric.)

I think the ideas of philosophy are too abstract for a child. Some may say they are too abstract for anybody. Interestingly, the Greeks were the first to have concepts of nature without any god or gods present. When it came to Aristotle it was a matter that needed proof.

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By a certain age, children understand advertising and its implications. Tell them that churches are a business, marketing self-help through salvation and a leader, and that they, like many big businesses, run some underhanded political scams.

Then tell him that, like businesses who market to teens and sell certain products as groupthink fascism, under the title of "cool", Christianity markets their product that way. In certain groups, and with certain employers, he will have to sport that brand name and its philosophical accoutrements in conversation or he will be fired or ostracized.

Keep it practical, tell him that Mama will not understand this and to keep it under his hat, and everything should be OK.

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As part of my divorce settlement, I had to take my children to CCD and other catholic events when I had them. This disturbed me a great deal at the time. I was with them with my relaxation and meditation music, candles and incense, exploring the free beauty in the word wit them-I was not a rich single mom. We practiced meditation, giggled and laughed a lot, and I explained my belief system when they asked. They, however, couldn't reconcile their mandate to attend the church events when their father et. al. didn't even attend church regularly. The years rolled by, they finally finished the sacraments, and life moved on. Flash forward to today, both in their early 20's.

They both view organized religion with a healthy dose of skepticism. While they do believe in "a God," it's not necessarily that which has been produced by a man made, edited, and cherry-picked book that they now see has been interpreted by man to further political agendas. Yes, they now realize there has been more harm done in the world in the name of God than in the furtherance of any other belief system. God, we agree now, needs no house because he is omnipresent and is with us at all times. We don't need to wear our belief as a shield or status symbol, our good deeds and work on this earth do that for us. I am so proud of them!

So teach your children love and peace, to appreciate the world, and to have compassion for their fellow humans. While my experience may not help your agnostic belief system, I believe there is something here that may help you enjoy your children more in your own place instead of trying to teach them what your place is.

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I was raised a Catholic and then ' fell away from the church". years later I was a single father of two young children. My Catholicism raised its guilty head and i tried to get my kids interested in the Church. I' m here to tell you it didn't take. I sent them to the Catholics , the baptists and some fundamentalist church. I did not accompany them. Today both are young adults and totally not interested in " Christian fairy tales".I have always been thankful for my catholic upbringing, I kept the best part of Christ's message and discarded the mythology. You know what, so did my kids. They have my catholic moral background, less the guilt and a humanistic view of life. I am satisfied I did the right thing. You children are lucky, they get to learn how to act like a good christans ( small letter on purpose ) and still not be caught up in the BS. Your children are lucky they have the two poles to learn from. Don't worry . teach them science and morality. Everything will be fine.

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Let's see...your ex-wife thinks that her son's soul depends on his believing in Jesus, and you want to teach him atheism. I'd say you're in a lose-lose bind here. If you try to overtly disparage her religion, she'll take steps to keep the kids away from you, and the vast majority of people will think that YOU'RE the jerk.

If you tell your son that you simply don't believe in God and want your time with him to be free of God-talk, then your son will worry for your soul.

I'd say that you simply let your son's comments pass and redirect the conversation to the matters at hand (how to hit a fast-ball, etc.). In your adventures with your son, you can simply pass by places like Buddhist temples or mosques, and when your son asks the obvious "what's that?" questions, simply say that they're a different religion with different ideas about God. This will let him know that other ideas exist.

Trying to tackle this head-on and overtly trying to teach your son to be an unbeliever will just set up a tug of war between you and the kid's mother, and 99.9% of the time, Mom wins. You might pat yourself on the back for being an ideologically-pure humanist, but your life will be shambles. It ain't worth it.

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... teaching him the truths of the religions rather than the lies.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all based on spiritual truths and teachings that seem pretty good actually, if any of their followers actually followed them.

Also, people try so hard to dismiss the concrete spiritual aspects of religious discipline that I wonder if their vehement atheism isn't it's own religion. Many of the arguments are as half baked stretches as any I've heard, and seem more like a hostile reaction to some religious people's hostile beliefs and hypocrisies.

I think as far as Christianity is concerned, rather than trying to prove Jesus doesn't exist, or isn't the messiah, which you really can't do unless you want to stretch your proofs and logic, it'd be better to educate your kids on the political underpinnings of current christianity, how we don't know the full story because the church suppressed many of his teachings and decided themselves what was "God breathed". Let them know how Mary's gospel and others were considered heresy much the same as Jesus himself was at one time.

Trying to hard to make someone atheist can make them as unreasoning as trying to force a religion on them.

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There are many different ways to be "religious" or "free-thinking." What you want is for your child not to be an idiot.

I was raised without religion, until my mother went to an Episcopal Church. I wasn't required to go, but worked in the soup kitchen and got to know some of the clergy. They were all thoughtful, inspired, humane. I never thought I had to read scripture literally. It was our common text. And the members were from all over the globe, and many of them were professors.

My own father, an atheist, read from the bible on the cultural holidays of Easter and Christmas. He told me the story, explained it as a myth, and then tried to explain its meaning. This inoculated me from sorts of religion that were fundamentalist. Yet, that sort of respect for religion - as a human activity with the potential for meaning - is rare among atheists. By giving me a dose, I feel much more able to discern between types of religion that aid the human condition, and those that harm.

For me, what we say about "God" says more about what we need as human beings than a scientific explanation that requires evidence or counter evidence. I'm glad I was exposed to a variety of religions before finding a home that combines ritual activity, while making enough sense to me that I can make my way in the world.

My suggestion: find a humanist Episcopal priest in the neighborhood.

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Judging from the relationship I have with my adult daughter... yeah, I was at times kinda going on like "hell is something they tell you because they want to scare you into believing in their god!" and later I'd think it must've been all " ---hell--- bla bla bla --- jesus --bla bla bla--- church-- bla bla bla"
Most likely it was at the time.

But she does remember our walks and the fun we had because its mainly the relationship you have with them that counts.

I did also explain the different beliefs including pagan beliefs and atheism and just told her that she could believe what she wanted.
Eventually they do. They all do.
And I think they appreciate it when you give them the choice and live some kind of example.

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It might help if you asked your child if it was possible to turn a stick into a snake. Remember, in the Bible Aaron cast a stick onto the ground, and it magically turned into a snake; then, the pharaoh ordered his sorcerers to do the same and two more snakes were created from sticks by magic. The one snake, according to the story, consumed the other two, and Aaron took the snake by the tail and it magically turned back into a stick -- with no reported gain in mass.

The Bible starts with language witchcraft and ends the same way -- and is "literally" filled with such stories which would make Harry Potter blush in incompetence.

Just think, even here in N.M., when the Harry Potter books first came out, books of fiction and fantasy, they had a book burning. They actually burned the Potter books because the books contained stories of witchcraft and sorcery fantasy. I guess sorcerers don't like competition. And further, the Harry Potter books are not tax exempt from profit.

So, teach your children that it is adults who really believe in witchcraft and sorcery, and it is small children trying to learn how to live in the real, natural world, who are only to be perverted later by nutty adults.

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Your son will be more influenced by your actions, rather than anything you can say.

Simply living in congruence with your own beliefs will go a long way with him.

The time to talk will be when he has questions for you at various points in his life while growing up.

I'm an agnostic single parent who had custody of my son. He spent a good bit of time with his grandparents as a child and I allowed them to take him to church. I did not try to tell him what to believe or not to believe, but told him it was his choice to decide for himself.

He's an adult now and despite years of indoctrination in Southern Baptist beliefs, he ended up as an agnostic, just like me. Imagine that.

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Were you aware that you were an Agnostic Humanist'? Or did you grow into it over time? As for the butterflies: True most don't live very long, nor do many other insects. But we haven't run out of butterflies along with lots of other things. You have isloated one thing and blown it out of proportion and way out of context. Why not take the boy the your local library and take out some books on butterflies? There won't be any religious opinions but there will be explanations that don't further confuse the child. Maybe he'll grow up top be an entymologist? Instead of the screwed up child you are attempting to influence. This is not about a little boy and butterflies and Jesus. It's about who gets to mess with the kid's head and then blame the other parent when he grows up and has major problems. By the way, he will NOT be a free thinker. ANNA

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Allow them to see movies like Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc. Tell them your own little stories. Allow them to see that they are surrounded by fiction for entertainment, for good, and for bad. Allow them to think critically about the motives of those telling the stories, not just what the stories are about.

My wife and I have a similar situation with her ex-husband who is a regular church goer, while we are anything but. We however have basically allowed our children to decide for themselves, voicing our views here and there as the question comes up, but allowing the kids the freedom to explore the other side. What they have seen of Christianity however has been anything but convincing when put into practice, as my wife's ex has a real issue with walking the talk. And while we know that our youngest still has some questions about what's real there at the age of 10, we know that she is a bright and critical thinker, and because we respect that in her so much, we know that whatever conclusions she arrives at will not be without sincere consideration. Likewise, we believe this freedom to decide will come with a tolerance for others to do the same.

In a nutshell, religion rebuffs the critical mind. Fostering inquisition, analysis, and doubt in a child is the strongest defense against indoctrination, but never absolute protection against it.

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"Counter-indoctrination?" Really?

Teaching kids (or any other people) to apply critical thinking skills is not a form of indoctrination. That's like saying using logic is a form of terrorism.

Psh.

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All it will take is to read the actual Bible. Right now your kids are reading watered down versions without all god-directed murder and mayhem. Once they are old enough to read the "real deal" where god directs his followers to go kill everyone and all of the animals, if you've taught your children compassion, empathy, and humanity, god will fall away.

I was about ten when I decided to believe and 13 when I decided it was all bullshit. I'm convinced that some people have the "faith gene" and some people don't -- which happens to be in concert with "in those days there were giants on earth as well, and the Sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and married them freely."

Face it, there are the God people and there are the no-god people. And by the way, I call myself an atheist in the George Smith sense of the word -- to live without belief in gods/god. It has nothing to do with having a belief, it is a lack of belief.

And to believers I always ask, "Why are you so freaked out about it? There are hundreds of gods you reject -- Zeus, Apollo, Mithra, Athena, Shiva, Gaia [when I feel particularly annoyed I'll list twenty of them] I believe in one less god than you do. From what logic do you reject the others?"

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Okay, I am a Christian myself. I have NOT brow beaten my children to be Christians. I just set them an example. Two are, one isn't. Just because a parent belongs to a church does not guarantee that their children will make the same decision. If you really want to drive your children away from your belief, push it down their throats and pretty soon they will rebel.
It is better to be your children's friend than to be their overbearing master who tries to scare them either into or out of religion. Just a point, religion has been the cause of hundreds of millions of deaths by persecution and murder. Over 120 million by the so called christian church and they will use their dogma to justify having done so.

If you really want to upset the apple cart, Jesus was not crucified at Easter time but at Passover. These were two different festivals and not connected in any way. The Easter tradition was pagan, so if your children are believing in the Easter story, they are already heading down the pagan pathway. Santa Claus and Christmas are other myths that have nothing to do with true Christianity.

The worship of idols is also another pagan doctrine. What are you worrying about? If they are believing these things now and you make good friends of them, sooner or later you will find that they will eventually see the mixed up falsehoods and "BINGO" they will be on their way out the church door.

Another way to possibly get through to them is to study the Bible yourself and you will have an innumerable amount of evidence that "church" doesn't even follow what the Bible says anyway. I can't guarantee that you will not come to the conclusion that there is a God but at least you will be better informed to advise your children and you will be able to point out the falsehoods being taught that are supposedly Christianity but are not.

For those who so definitely say there is NO evidence about Creation, the Noah's Flood and the supposed crossing of the Red Sea or even the crucifiction. I would suggest you get your heads out of the sand and do some real investigation instead of being armchair critics and listening to others who will go to great lengths to falsify evidence to "prove" that evolution is true. There are as many liars promulgating evolution as there are liars promulgating the christian religion.

It is Your responsibility to find what is truth, not your teachers or anyone else's responsibility. Yours and Yours alone. The same goes for me, I too am just as accountable for honesty as anyone else. Unfortunately, some religious believers think they aren't and it seems that there are non believers who think they aren't accountable either.

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You just don't like what he is thinking...

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Obviously, you seem to care more about your sons future than your x-wife does. Their mental future, that is! What the world does NOT need are more brain-washed religious drones for the coming years. History is replete with their examples! Hate, greed, genocide, etc. I assume that discussing this with your x-wife is either not possible, or just pointless. I suspect the latter. Apparently, you don't wish to be brutal with the reverse arguments. I suggest that you leave literature about that they could see, or watch, say, Bill Maher's 'Religious' while they're there.

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First, the fact that your children have been given theophoric names ought to have been a clue to your wife's religiosity long ago.

Second, you need to consider that your child has become a battleground for some other underlying conflict between yourself and your wife.

Third, children of that age are normally very dogmatic about everything they believe. Their brains are not yet developed fully. They are as dogmatic about Jesus as they are about the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Fourth, because even the Catholic church has a sense of child development (that's why his church books have pictures in them), First Communion does not occur till your son's 7th birthday. He will love the ceremony and the treats, and you should attend with happiness for him and not furrow your brow in misplaced consternation.

Fifth, your son senses your obvious desperation and is probably being scarred by your endless insistence on "humanist" lit.

Sixth, there are many more appropriate books to read to a child of that age - Dr. Seuss, Maurice Sendak, Robert Munsch, Mark Twain, Alexandre Dumas (scaled down), Beatrix Potter, Treasure Island, etc., which contain the humanist message without being obsessively didactic about it. Every good tale contains a message about courage, honesty, justice, compassion. Give your kid a little credit - he will get it.

It might occur to you that the church books he enjoys so much have lots of colorful pictures in them of, if not happy, then at least serene, characters who are doing good things (acc. to the authors). If those books are touching him, they are doing a better job of it than you. I am an older adult, and even I would be bored and irritated by your unceasing infliction of humanist philosophy. Tell me a good story instead. Show me a wonder.

Read some Joseph Campbell for yourself. Get him some books with colorful pictures and heroes derring-doing. I highly recommend books on mythology and legends (Classical, Middle-Eastern, Far Eastern, and Norse) tailored to children. He'll eventually pick up a common thread that runs through them; besides,they're the origins of our humanist values, and the benefit is you can just enjoy the hero tales, or tales of magic and adventure - King Arthur, H.C. Andersen, Puss-in-Boots, the long version of Grimm's. Rudyard Kipling's Jungle books, the Odyssey, Lord of the Rings, Aesop, The Little Prince - there's so much terrific, colorful stuff out there: why are you irritating your boy with *crikey!* philosophy books?? Those are the best counterbalance to religious fanaticism, and much more fun for both of you. Also, he'll learn about the basic symbolism that undergirds Western culture.

Sixth, you really can relax. When your son becomes a teenager, he will challenge/question/doubt everything he's learned from you. He will temporarily even become an atheist. It's all part of the growth process.

What you're doing, your didactic approach to this "Problem", is doing more harm than good. Have the necessary discussions with your wife and don't make your boy a Bone of Contention.
You found your way - trust him to find his.

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with mummy and daddy fighting some battle and using him as a pawn.

One sure way to confuse the child is to tell him that everything mummy has taught him is wrong. After all--we don't know what is really right.

If dad wants to enlarge the boy's mind, there are better ways of doing it than trying to destroy what the kid's been taught for 6 years. I'd wait till he's older and then give him some books to read.

Poor child.

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Christians argue they are no longer under Mosaic Law, because Paul referred to his background as a former Pharisee and previous adherence to Mosaic Law as "so much garbage."

Nothing in the synoptic gospels suggests a break with Judaism. Jesus was called "Rabbi," meaning "Master" or "Teacher," 42 times in the gospels. Jesus' ministry was a rabbinic one. He went to the synagogue (Matthew 12:9), taught in the synagogues (Matthew 4:23, 13:54; Mark 1:39), expressed concern for Jairus, "one of the rulers of the synagogue" (Mark 5:36) and it "was his custom" to go to the synagogue (Luke 4:16).

Jesus himself said: "Do not suppose I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill...till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven...unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)

Jesus also upheld the Torah in Luke 16:17: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the smallest portion of the Law to become invalid."

Nor do these words refer merely to the Ten Commandments. Jesus meant the entire Torah: 613 commandments. When a man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus replied, "You know the commandments." He quoted not just the Ten Commandments, but a commandment from Leviticus 19:13 as well: "Do not defraud." (Mark 10:17-22)

Jesus' disciples were once accused by the scribes and Pharisees of violating rabbinical tradition (Matthew 15:1-2; Mark 7:5), but not biblical law. Jesus never says anywhere in the entire New Testament that the Law is abolished; this was Paul's theology.

Sometimes Christians cite Matthew 7:12, where Jesus says "Do unto others..." and this "covers" the Law and the prophets. But Jesus was merely repeating in the positive what Rabbi Hillel taught a generation earlier. No one took Hillel's words to mean the Law had been abolished--why should we assume this of Jesus?

If Jesus really came to abolish the Law and the prophets, Peter would not have resisted a divine command to kill and eat both "clean" and "unclean" animals (Acts 10), nor would there have been a debate in the early church as to what extent the gentiles were to observe Mosaic Law (Acts 15). When Paul visited the church at Jerusalem, James and the elders told him all its members were "zealous for the Law," and they were worried because they heard rumors Paul was preaching against Mosaic Law (Acts 21).

None of these events would have happened had Jesus really come to abolish the Law and the prophets.

Paul says if anyone has confidence in the Law, "I am ahead of him."

Would that mean Paul places himself ahead of Jesus, who said he did not come to abolish the Law and the prophets? Would that mean Paul places himself ahead of Jesus, who said whoever sets aside even the least of the Law's demands shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-19)?

Would that mean Paul places himself ahead of Jesus, who taught that following the commandments of God is the only way to eternal life (Mark 10:17-22)? Would that mean Paul places himself ahead of Jesus who said that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the smallest portion of the Law to become invalid (Luke 16:17)?

Paul may have regarded the Law as "so much garbage," but it should be obvious JESUS DIDN'T THINK THE LAW WAS "GARBAGE"!

Christians believe in Paul, not Jesus. Bertrand Russell called Paul the "inventor" of Christianity.

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how about providing a cancel button so we can wipe out a comment we decide not to post.

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being spiritual & believing a supreme being.

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corporate America, etc ... Who cares if he studies Jesus?

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explain the old testament to him...read it with him. point out the needless war and violence. also point out in whos name this violence was carried out in. explain the modern day similarities. then you should have no problems:)

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It's very simple really,My folks both very intelligent,well educated people,not overly religious,started me out in the basics,as they did each of my two younger sisters as they came along...started out w/communion,basic catholic school teachings,...didn't go every year as we traveled to different countries...all in all out of my first 8 years I'd spent maybe 4 in a catholic school..and that really helped me open my mind,and ask many a forbidden question,of the nuns...when the nun confronted my Prof. of Archeology mom w/the so called problem...the nun just realized what a futile attempt this was...curiosity is built in ,it's part of what we are...I more or less became agnostic by 7th grade,not believing in organized religion but still basically believing in a god...by 18 years of age,I was a full blown Athiest....my youngest sister same,my middle sister who actually spent more years in a catholic school,is basically agnostic/spiritual...they're in their mid to later 50's I'm 64....if your son is going to make a change it's going to be on his own...I've told this to friends w/similar situations and in more cases than not it works...you simply can neither beat religion into someone or being a non-believer..he can also change years later in adulthood...my wife did,and I had nothing to do with it...

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I have the exact same problem as the author. My sons mother is devote catholic and I am atheist. My son is in catholic school and sometimes asks me questions regarding god, jesus, and the bible. I answer every question exactly the way the catholic church would...why? Because no one convinced me that there was no god. No one persuaded me to question my faith as a teenager. I came to conclusions about faith and god all by myself. And just as democracy can not be forced upon a society, evolving past your need for religion is personal journey. If my son every asks me about my beliefs I will tell him. If he decides on his own to seek out alternatives to the belief structure his currently learning I will whole heartedly help him. But for now, the fundamental message learned in all organized religion is a good one. It's the details where people get scared killed or worse.

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& how to take people as you find them...

& how to play with ideas & express them to a diversity of people...




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perspective, people.


Perspective.

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"... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice..." ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.

"Violence can only be concealed by a Lie, & the Lie can only be maintained by Violence." ... "Any man, who has once proclaimed Violence as his Method, is inevitably forced to take the Lie as his Principle" – Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire.
~~~
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"

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You want your sons to be able to make their own choices and be freethinkers. Fair enough.

So you are reading all kinds of books that you have chosen with them. Cool. But if it's all about free choice, why are you getting all upset when they are reading the bible?

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Some religions are more harmful than others: For example, if your child becomes a JW or a moonie, you will lose them forever. They will try to convert you and when they fail, the will cast you out of their lives. These cult religions excel at tearing apart families. No one wants to see their children "brainwashed" into one of these sects.

There are also "mainstream" religious sects which seek to take the minds of our children: Islam, Mormon, and smaller non-denom christian sects. Southern Baptists and Church of Christ prohibit dancing and drinking of alcohol so out go the family celebrations.

Anyway, the point is no parent wants to lose the their child to religious fanaticism. Watching your loved one descend into religious fanaticism is like watching him or her die of cancer. No parent wants this.

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You've lost. You should have had a long talk with your wife before you married about how to raise the children.

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If I were you, I would stop thinking so much about which world view my kid embraces, and be more concerned about his general health overall. If you and your wife make your children the center piece of a religious tug of war, your children will be the losers. You knew what your wife believed when you married her. You honestly didn't think she would work to impart her values and beliefs onto her children? Do you have any idea how harmful it will be to your family for you to come in everytime your child expresses a religious idea, and you come in and contradict it? You're telling him he is wrong, his mother is wrong, and you are right. This is the relationship you want with your wife and kids? Your humanist friend was correct; set the example; provide a wide variety of literature; be loving, kind and tolerant yourself, if that is what you want your child to be. You expressing intolerance for the beliefs of him and his mother will only eventually place a strong wedge between you both. I was a Christian for 25 years, and raised my kids in the church. When I did an about face, they took it as a welcome sign that they were also free to question the beliefs with which they had been raised. I am no longer a member of any religious organization, and do not share any beliefs of any of the world's major organized religions. However, one thing that has remained with me is a disgust for those who claim to be all about tolerance and open mindedness--as long as you agree with them. You sir, are exhibiting a close-mindedness and lack of tolerance that is no different from that seen in Christianity. At least Christians are honest about being narrow-minded and intolerant. You, however, are in complete denial about that, and on the verge of fighting a religious war in your houselhold over the minds of your children. It isn't worth it. No matter how they are raised, your kids will eventually believe what they want to believe. And if it isn't what you believe, you will have to just learn to live with it if you want a good relationship with your family.

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Your friend gave the best advice who said, teach them science. Then you asked, "what do I do with my boys?" Well, take them to the natural history museum! See movies with dinosaurs in them! Watch any of a number of intelligent science fiction movies that ask questions and open imaginations, like Forbidden Planet or Planet of the Apes. The way to engage children is with their imaginations! Stop being so scholarly and start being involved. Reading philosophy to a child? Please! Make a baking soda volcano with him instead!

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Go to the beach, the lake, the woods, the desert , the mountains and show them the cornucopia of life in all of it's variety and complexity- it's interdependence and interconnectedness. Tell them the narrative of evolution a little at a time as they see the wonder of nature for themselves.

Then look up. Show them the stars and the diverse universe that our earth is but a tiny part of. Explain the vastness of the known universe and it's simplicity and it's complexity. Most importantly- don't kill the wonder and beauty of it.

Then look in. Invest in a microscope and show them the life inside a drop of water from a pond or a tiny drop of blood. Again, don't make it a science class- make it a fun eye-opening experience of the wonder of it all.

Darwin found the seeds of evolution and natural selection watching pepper moths in his homeland and later on the Beagle out in nature. Mendel found genetics planting peas in a garden.

I'm not anti-book, but the lessons learned first-hand by observation of the wonder that surrounds us will refute the narrow-minded myths of the priesthood in a way no book ever can. What a child sees, touches and hears in the flesh leaves an indelible mark that will serve as a filter through which all argument about the natural world must pass. At the same time a deep appreciation for stewardship, community and ecology will take root.

The rest will take time, thought, discussion and consideration.

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Talk to your wife and agree on what you're going to teach your children if you haven't already and stop undermining the religious training she is giving the boys. She's Catholic. You knew when you married her that she is Catholic. It sounds like she is raising her children as Catholics. What you are doing is telling your kids that you disrespect your wife and her deepest beliefs and that is going to undermine your marriage and probably your relationship with your sons. If they ask what you think, there's no reason you can't tell them honestly, but there's also no real reason for you to say "Mommy is wrong. Jesus isn't God." If I were your wife I'd resent the hell out of you for doing that. People who believe in God are NOT idiots. Belief in Christianity also doesn't prevent someone from being quite a good scientist. Doctors, lawyers, chemists, biologists all include among their ranks practicing Christians as well as agnostics and atheists.

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Jesus would create beautiful creatures like butterflies if they only live two weeks, he's already questioning religious dogma. Encourage such thought....and give him a lot of age-appropriate science books to read. As for your wife's influence, you've got big problems.

When I was a kid, I was literally FORCED to go to church. I HATED it (other than the music) from the getgo. Even when I still believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, I thought church was boring and bullshit. Right then and there I decided that when I was old enough to marry, I was NOT going to marry anyone tied to a particular religion.

It looks like you and your wife may be headed for a serious argument about your son's religious (or not) upbringing. Should have thought about that before you got married. I know I'm glad I did.

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My parents raised me Southern Baptist. I'm now Pagan.
My daughter's dad is Buddhist.
I belong to a UU church, which she attended with me when she was growing up.
My daughter considers herself an earth-centered agnostic - she believes that IF there is a god, it's Nature.
I don't care if she's Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan, Muslim, or atheist. I care that she is a decent, caring person, and that is indeed the case. What myth, if any, she chooses to follow (and yes, I consider my own gods mythical as well - myth is not a dirty word to Pagans) is entirely up to her.

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The exchange described in the opening of the article shows why the boys' mother is successful: She actually holds her own beliefs with conviction. How about setting a (tolerant) example: "Some people like your mother believe in God, but *I* don't."

Aside from making it personal, I would suggest rather than humanist books, you read fiction books that happen to have a humanist message.

I was raised completely Catholic and as an adult took on Mahayana Buddhism-- about as close to secular humanism as you can get without calling it that. I appreciate Jesus and what he said so much more now that I see him as a common mortal.

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The agnostic Dad sees his 6 year old son identify a picture as Jesus. I have a problem right off with a Christian Denomination allowing that to happen. No one knows what Jesus looked like. You can bet he did not look like the pictures we all can identify.

What is true is that Jesus DID live in this world and that is not a myth. A good well rounded education involves knowing about ALL the religions of the world and it does not happen overnight, maybe it takes a lifetime to make the decision.

What is a major problem is INDOCTRINATION in a particular organized belief system. A cult belief is hard to escape from, and that is why so many people become atheists or closed minds.

Children do need to know right from wrong and that is in the hands of loving, common sense type parents.

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Just shutting the f*** up works wonders with a kid. My daughter (age 11) follows her own train of thought and draws her own conclusions. She always has.

She has chosen to accept invitations to church with friends and come to the conclusion on her own that it just doesn't make any sense.

I grew up the child of a evangelical southern baptist fundamentalist preacher and never believed what they told me was fact. As young as 6 or so, I questioned and got in loads of trouble. I went through all of the motions of indoctrination, the revivals, baptism, etc.
Even the constant pulpit pounding fire and brimstone was not enough to make any logic out of it. I wasn't taught to think for myself, wasn't even allowed to, but managed to do it anyway.

Point being, kids know a lot more than we give them credit for and the simple who believe because they are told to believe become the simple adults who will blindly follow.

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Stick one point, and one point only: What did Jesus Christ teach us about this? If you get old testament / religious dogma tripe, then the follow up is, "you can't be a Christian and ignore what Christ told us to do. If you put the teachings of somebody else before Christ's then you can't be a Christian." you can explain it this way: "you can't claim to be a fish if you can't breathe underwater."

Google, "The Gospel of St. Thomas": and try to find a red letter edition of the Bible- the one with the words of Christ in red. Study these, and you will see something: what Jesus taught is humanistic, and is very much the same thing that many other religions and philosophies teach. Learn Jesus' teachings and words, and learn to talk with your son about them in a practical framework. Explain to him that Jesus taught to take care of the sick and the unfortunate. Explain to him that Jesus told us to pray in private.


Keep this up, and don't contradict what your son says- just ask him that same question. Pretty soon, he will start thinking for himself, and it won't be long before he will start to see the problems with modern Christianity- the often do things that Jesus said not to do. And he will start to see, for himself, the conflicts of church dogma.

And one more thing: Religion is the politics of spirituality.

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You are in a difficult dilemma. Try stressing the allegorical and the mythopoeic, the real value of religious narrative. Ideas above about introducing other "religious" stories are excellent...try Mithras and Horus...and stress the profound value of the poetry. Expand the the imagination, don't limit it with denials. Get an age appropriate book on Creation stories...North American indigenous cultural legends...not intended to be literal. I hope this might debunk literalism and the put the profound and poetic in the myth...truly valuable. Whatever, avoid entrenched arguments. WWI only led to WWII. You might lose a battle but you will win the war if the child expands his mind. Good luck.

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When I was a young boy, my dad used to put me to bed every evening and recite poetry.

He also introduced me to classical music.

As I got older, he encouraged me to steer my educational efforts in the direction of maths and physics. In addition, perhaps because he trained to be a pilot with the RAF during the 2nd world war, felt it was his duty to give me a thorough grounding in the constellations and planets and galaxies.

Through various books, he also introduced me to philosophy and psychology, subjects he believed would help me to better understand the human condition.

Later on in life, I became interested in the nature of belief – why do some people believe in God and not others. I reasoned that when people speak about God, or ‘belief’ in God, what they are really referring to, inadvertently I should add, is the forgotten feelings of their own birth which is the primal relationship between mother and baby, and nothing at all to do with a supreme being.

Belief in God is certainly rooted in a real experience. How we felt when we were born was a real experience, but one that has been long forgotten. It can’t be intellectualised or converted into a thought because there is precious little we can do to connect with it.

A young child is closer, in temporal and emotional terms, to his or her own birth, and in the absence of any religious intervention, stands a better chance of uncovering the truth about itself rather than one whose ability to think has been modified with religious ideas.

I was fortunate in having parents who treated religion with the contempt it deserves. In your case Mr Postel, you will probably have to accept the fact that your son’s ability to think will remain forever tainted and compromised. You might just as well encourage him to become a priest.

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..there's a 1000x more common sense here than was evidenced in original article. I'm also struck by the fact that this is one of the few cases where a discussion of religion was not polarized and invective. Folks on both sides of the believer aisle had much the same perspective on the right way to communicate one's belief. I have no explanation for this, but I wonder how much it has to do with the fact that the more basic problem of child rearing puts a human face on things. I wonder why we can't be more respectful of each other when religion comes up in a different context.

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I completely understand this father's panic when his children spout religious cliches. I am a recovering Catholic and have struggled for years to overcome the indoctrination that started at the age of five. I have deliberately raised my child outside of any religion to give her a chance to have an open and analytical mind. She still has brought me up short with religious ideas that I question her about and point out that they are only beliefs and cannot be substantiated. I never want her to feel she is less of a person because she is female, as I was taught in church, or that anyone else has a right to control her life.

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I am a 62 year old woman who was raised in a small mid-western town. My mother was an English war bride, hence Church of England, and my father was of Jewish descent. It was decided by my parents that their children were to be raised Jewish. We went to Hebrew school and Sunday school. We were bar/bat mitzvahed. We were even confirmed, which in the Jewish faith occurs at age 16. My parents did not practice Judaism: they just sent us. They never said that they didn't believe. We just never saw any evidence that they did. Two of the three of us are now atheists and one is an agnostic. It isn't what you tell your children or even what they read. I read all the Jewish texts put in front of me. I can't ever remember believing any of it. The day before my bat mitzvah, I told the rabbi that I didn't want to go through with the ceremony because I was fairly certain I didn't believe in god. Give your children time and space. They will figure it out for themselves.

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Daddy, you have been way too passive to complain about anything. First, you agreed that your kids should have religious oriented names as others have already pointed out. You state that you don't want to tell your kids what to believe, but obviously mommy has no such qualms about telling the kids jesus is god. What do you think happens when one parent says X and the other says nothing?

Trying to passively show them alternatives when one parent is actively emphasizing the correctness of one particular religion is a waste of your time. You obviously did not have many conversations with your wife about this before the kids arrived.

I don't think mixed relationships can work well when two people are so far apart on the religious scale. The discussions I have had with past girlfriends who were too far on the religious side have always led to a mutual agreement to part company. I guess the author was just too passive in the dating phase of his relationship as well as in the marriage.

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Check out your local Unitarian Universalist Church or Society. The UUs have a wonderful religious education program for children that may fit your needs. See www.uua.org for information.

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It appeals to their black and white perspective. He'll grow up a little and learn to be more critical. OF you, of your wife, of belief. You should be more worried about what he is learning in church and in those Sunday school classes kids go to. Some churches are pretty politicalized -- you need to go and pay attention to what they are teaching him. Values sink a lot deeper than dogma -- so you should be certain the church your son goes to has the same values you do.

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When your kid asked about those butterflies, he was already beginning to question the truth of what he'd been told. By slamming down the teachings outright, instead of giving him the room to figure it out for himself, you put him on the defense and invited the child to dig his heels in. Now you're going to have to wait another 7 years or so for your next chance.

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But it's what I'm planning to do with my daughter. Nothing makes you a free thinker faster than actually -reading- the Bible.

Sit him down and read him the REAL Bible (pick one, any one) rather than a kid's watered down version. Do it yourself, rather than relying on a church or his mother or someone else.

Give him a cookie, chocolate, a dollar or even just a hug and praise every time he picks up something that contradicts something else in the bible, tells something blatantly untrue, or contradicts what we know and can demonstrate about he observable universe. When he finds something or has a question whip out another book that corroborates your reasoning.

See if the kid picks out the continuity and other errors. If not, ask him questions so that he can figure it out on his own.

Example: God brought forth grass and herb yielding seeds and fruit trees on Day 2 in 1:11, how did those items live without the sun? How was there an 'evening' and 'morning' or even a 'day' in 1:13 when the lights in the firmament weren't created until the next day in 1:14. When God said "Let there be light" in 1:3, who was he talking to?

Just whatever you do, don't denigrate other people's beliefs otherwise it will end up being you and your wife fighting over your child's mind with your child in the middle. Instead, highlight why you -don't- believe the same as she does and why there are many many others who don't agree with her as well. Lead by example. Lead by Logic. Lead by reason. I can't guarantee this will work

Examples abound, even with a precursory reading of the bible. If you need some pointers check out: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

Once he's older and can handle the idea of more than one religion, do the same thing with Koran and the Torah and other religious texts.

Good luck.

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By merely introducing the ideas of skepticism and critique into how we view the institutions of the world, including authority and adulthood, many children will come to humanism naturally--even if there are a few detours first. (G*d didn't forbid tasting from the Tree of Knowledge for nothing.) How many of us know lapsed Catholics or secular Jews, etc? The religionists fail more than they succeed. Growing up in a home that questions even questions conventional "truths" is enough, I believe. Doubt is what cracks foundations.

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Isn't it amazing that virtually every president starting with Raygun is actually a bible thumper? A president is supposed to be like a model, a father figure if male a mother figure if female. Yet, corruption, greed, hate, and amorality have trickled down to the commons. It has come to the point that most parents, realize it or not, fall into the trap of teaching their kids to bible thump rather than follow it. Even on this site, I notice a lot of "Bill O'Reilly" clones who foam at the mouth when one brings up the hypocrisy of our leadership that's wrecking what's left of our nation. I wouldn't be surprised to see their kids grow up to be like O'Reilly if not worse.

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Free thinkers are born not created. Most come from religious homes. It is just as difficult to get a free thinker to believe in God as it is to get a Jesus freak to become a freethinker. There is a God Gene In religious zealots that is impossible to remove.

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Prejudice and bias against religion is just as non-free-thinking as the opposite!! You don't have to remove religion from someone for them to become a free-thinker. This father simply wants his son to follow him rater than the mother. Is that really free-thinking.

All these pseudo-intellectuals who continuously comment on these sort of articles are just as bad as the pseudo-loving Christians who bad mouth everyone.

My advice is to get a life, and let people have their beliefs.

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The kid has already shown the way out and Dad is too panicked to notice. Listen to the boy:

"Daddy, why did Jesus invent butterflies if they die after two weeks?"

Dad comes back with a crusher, like a badgering cross-examiner:

"First, Theo, your question presumes that Jesus was God..."

The helpful response would have been: "that's a very good question! what do you think?" It is a good question, and it would be fascinating to see what else this obviously bright kid comes up with.

If Dad can find it in his endangered sense of Dad-hood to let the kid develop some intellectual self-confidence, the problem will solve itself. Rationality is all about asking questions and evaluating (rather than parroting) answers -- not the strong point of religion. And instead of embarking on an endless theological deathmatch, Dad won't even have to directly contradict the believer in the household.

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My dad has never once to this day even so much as mentioned religon or god. My mother is a Jehovah's Witness who made me goto church 3 times a week and go door to door. Dad never said a word about it. When I was 17 I was leaving to go out with friends and my mom said I had to goto church. Dad said, "he is old enough to make his own decisions on religion." Done and Done. Never went back again.

My dad did not force his views down my throat and to this day (I'm 31) I still have no idea his view on religion.

Lucky for me Jehovah's Witnesses teach you to find fault with other religions based on what the bible actually says. Unfortunately for my mom, after learning to pick out all the reasons other religions were wrong I turned my critical thinking on my own.

I do believe that religion is a form of child abuse. Telling a 10 year old he will burn in hell for eternity for stealing is abuse. I made alot of stupid decisions in my late teens early 20's because of religous guilt.

I'm apalled that my sister is raising my nephews as Jehovah's Witnesses. But lucky for me witnesses are taught to preach the "good word" and will frequently try to get me to go to church as they get older. I will take this time to express my views because if they are old enough to preach to me I can preach back.

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"hmm, if Mom believes 'X' but Dad doesn't, I guess there are multiple perspectives to consider, and who knows which one is right? Maybe none has a monopoly on truth…"

As long as the imperial consciousness of Xtian fundie thought is present, it will captivate kids. You absolutely must counterbalance it with higher consciousness material, and be persistent as they grow up. It will be very difficult to break free of the Xtian literalist (or fundie) programming. It is indeed a cult and a cult that's stuck in Imperial Consciousness with a bunch of regressive adults who demand full compliance and a pathological mistrust of anything higher consciousness.

I feel for the author... currently I don't believe there is enough humanist or atheist philosophical lit or consciousness raising lit outside of maybe UU circles, that can counteract the Xtian dogma. The very fact that kids are in the same consciousness level as the Xtian cult makes it extremely problematic and potentially dangerous to the child who could well be held back by the programming.

I don't think humanists have a clue about how dangerous and how manipulative Xtianity really is. And therein lies the problem. There's tolerance and there's passivity, and most atheists and humanists in the U.S. are woefully passive, to everyone's peril.

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If they disagree with you, ask them how they know. The statement is meant to be fairly polemical but it is the exact counter of your wife's "There is a God" claim. The real question is asking how they know and wanting evidence to backup beliefs. "It says in the Bible..." - "The Bible isn't true."

When the circular reasoning starts, that's a hard nut to crack, but for now they tend to believe non-wishy-washy statements of any character. Just so long as you can base things on evidence and they see reality as the legitimate place for such things to be discussed then there's still plenty of time.

Don't be boring and don't be wishywashy. Teaching kids basic science, comparative religions, and skepticism would work before religion has their minds and certainly might help afterwards. It plants seeds that don't come to fruition for a while.

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Religion is ruthless mind rape that is socially accepted by humans and extremely harmful. Educate yourself about your own "I am not sure" about the God issue in your own life. It is not an easy task to be free of dogma in our current life. It takes time and deep conviction that one wants to come to the truth of one's own thought limitations. Prepare yourself not to have any friends or relatives that come near you. Can you survive the experience of social isolation?

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Something about all that stuff that you're told, and then finding out the real world isn't like that, sort of crashes in on people.
If your kids are interested in science they will eventually have a hard time comprehending how the Catholic church could possibly have been so insane, for such a long time, about Galileo. This examination of the Galileo stuff can lead them to question other things they've been told.

The Vatican is changing Galileos status from a heretic to a hero of faith and science.

A news report published in the Chicago Tribune describes the Vaticans change of heart:

The Vatican is recasting the most famous victim of its Inquisition as a man of faith, just in time for the 400th anniversary of Galileo's telescope and the U.N.-designated International Year of Astronomy next year.

Pope Benedict XVI paid tribute to the Italian astronomer and physicist Sunday, saying he and other scientists had helped the faithful better understand and "contemplate with gratitude the Lord's works."

In May, several Vatican officials will participate in an international conference to re-examine the Galileo affair, and top Vatican officials are now saying Galileo should be named the "patron" of the dialogue between faith and reason.

It's quite a reversal of fortune for Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), who made the first complete astronomical telescope and used it to gather evidence that the Earth revolved around the sun. Church teaching at the time placed Earth at the center of the universe.

The church denounced Galileo's theory as dangerous to the faith, but Galileo defied its warnings. Tried as a heretic in 1633 and forced to recant, he was sentenced to life imprisonment, later changed to house arrest.

The Church has for years been striving to shed its reputation for being hostile to science, in part by producing top-notch research out of its own telescope.

In 1992, Pope John Paul II declared that the ruling against Galileo was an error resulting from "tragic mutual incomprehension."

But that apparently wasn't enough. In January, Benedict canceled a speech at Rome's La Sapienza University after a group of professors, citing the Galileo episode and depicting Benedict as a religious figure opposed to science, argued that he shouldn't speak at a public university.

The Galileo anniversary appears to be giving the Vatican new impetus to put the matter to rest. In doing so, Vatican officials are stressing Galileo's faith as well as his science, to show the two are not mutually exclusive.

So, after almost 400 years, the message of the church to Galileo is: All is forgiven. Too bad Galileo is not here to hear these words and discover that the church is not infallible after all.

Claude Mariottini
Professor of Old Testament
Northern Baptist Seminary

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You sound utterly confused and if it is important to you to show your children that this religious stuff is magical thinking and not sound, you have waited a long time to recognize that your wife doesn't agree at all and she has been and continues to indoctrinate the children to her way of thinking.
In our household, I believe there is something beyond and greater than what we can prove is there -- and I call it "God" for lack of a better name. My husband is an atheist who came to his belief that there is no god after being beaten in the name of Christ as a child - shamed and told he was going to burn in hell for all eternity. I don't blame my husband a bit for his views on religion. Our children have been free to pursue or not pursue any line of religion or non-religion that they wished to pursue, until our younger daughter fell prey to some Youth For Christers. These evangelicals concerned us very much and we would not allow her to participate in a theater activity they were involved in because we recognized that they were using the theater to entice youngsters who they then forced into prayer and religious discussion - which had nothing to do with the theater they were pretending to be. The theater was a vehicle to catch the children and turn them in the direction this group wanted. Our daughter was mad at us, but we held firm - we did not want her to be in this environment which we viewed as unhealthy and manipulative. You seem to be on the fence about all of this. You should figure out how you feel and talk with your children. You're in a tough spot because basically you will leave them with the understanding that either Mommy is wrong, or you are wrong. The best you might be able to accomplish is that you can help them to understand that people don't always believe the same things about important issues, and hope that they will grow up with enough intellectual curiosity to explore how they feel about this for themselves. And then you will have to love them regardless of what they determine to be their truth. Even if they end up desperately wanting to be sure that YOU are saved before you die! Ouch! That'll be a hard pill to swallow!

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For the rest of these children's lives, they're going to be torn in two completely different directions because mommy and daddy were too dumb to find someone who SHARED THEIR OWN NON/RELIGIOUS VIEWS, and one parent is always going to be crushed because these children went with the other parent.

In this case, this guy seems pretty whipped by his former wife. He consented to having not just one but TWO children with a woman who didn't share his religious views, and consented to have them be given religiously themed names. Or perhaps he didn't get a say in the matter.

This guy needs to grow a spine and tell his kids "MOMMY IS WRONG! Here's Why....." Why? Because that's probably what mommy is saying about daddy while the kids are over at her place. This guy isn't even putting up a fight. He's as dull and uninteresting to these kids as John Kerry was in the 2004 election. Catch the kids' attention with something atheistic in nature but on their level. The Golden Compass. Something. Anything.

This guy doesn't seem to have the guts or the conviction to teach his kids facts on WHAT'S WRONG WITH RELIGION. Dare I call this man a "closet Christian"......?

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It begins thus:

A long time ago, before you were born, before I was born, before the beginning of the very first day, everything lived and dreamed as One Thing.

Our family, our house, the wind, the ocean, the mountains, all the stars, everything - were all together in one place, and the place was so small that all those things were just One Thing, and it was very, very small...

Smaller than the tiniest sparkle of a snowflake, and all was as quiet as a soft Winter's night.

Do you want to know about the time before the Beginning?

Well, that time is a Great Mystery. No one can tell about that time, but you can play there in your imagination.

At the very beginning of the first day we blossomed into a huge flower, like fireworks on the Fourth of July, only much more beautiful, and much, much bigger.

As the flower grew and faded, fresh new stars were born, swirling in a soft glowing mist, like dandelion seeds on the wind...

And it goes on from there. You get the idea.

You can purchase this lovely book from this web address:
http://stores.lulu.com/jdstillwater

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The biggest fallacy in Mr. Postel's article and thinking is the assumption that someone who embraces a particular religious belief system is not a free-thinker. If your son wanted to be an ornithologist, but you want him to be a botanist, do you point him in your chosen direction by denying him the right to study any science whatsoever, doing it in belief that no knowledge or personal experience with any scientific field will best prepare him for making better scientific choices later? Likewise a child or young person who is taught a paricular religious belief, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. is better situated to make choices or changes later in his religious beliefs than a person with no religious training. An atheist, or one who doesn't have a history of embracing a religious belief system, telling a practicing believer what wrong with being a believer is like a man telling a mother what it's like to have a baby. There an enormous credibility gap. Religions and churches are made up of people and like any organization containing people, they contain lots of faults, shortcomings, mistakes, and even, at times, evil. Those problems need to be recognized, acknowledged, and dealt with, but as long as churches contain people they will never be anywhere close to perfect. The ideals are there and visible to all, and one of the purposes of religion is to continually remind all people of how they can live and be better.

Leonard Nolt

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I use to hang with some friends who were really pentecostal during their high school years in the 80's, they would go through all the motions. Eventually as they got older and had life experience and got exposure to other ideas, some of them now consider themselves atheist or secularized. It took years of doubts and self examination, sort of like quitting an addiction.

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Theo is too young to be put through a tug of war between his parents' beliefs. My suggestion is to teach him to be a good person because that is the right thing to be, whether there is or isn't a God. With your loving example of acceptance and tolerance, when he grows up and goes to college he will start thinking for himself and hopefully form his own belief system. My sister and I were raised in a deeply religious home and we are both agnostics. I believe deeply in not involving children in arguments over which they have no control. Be a loving father and he will probably follow your example, or not.

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Free thinking allows for open exchanges. I don't mean that your children can teach you more than you know about theology. But if you take a genuine interest in their interests by showing them that you are willing to listen to them, it is most likely they will also be willing to listen.

I agree that there are a lot of wrong answers in orthodoxy. Primarily that is because when religion asks the right questions, we find ourselves awash in undecideables. That is also true in science, and in relationships; in the latter case, some make a difference but others don't matter much.

I saw nothing in your article that I would criticize. As a parent of now middle-aged kids, learning that I could never and would never do all that is required has turned from regret into satisfaction. Some things you just gotta learn to live with.

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Little children take seriously what they are told by their parents. Teenagers think everything their parents have told them is a load of crap. Just wait. Hang loose. The teenage years will change the landscape in your house.

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As a single father of two, you missed the boat in a big way. Your son asked you a question about butterflies: why they die in roughly two weeks' time. Whether this was brought about by evolutionary factors or theological factors is NOT his concern - that is YOUR concern!!!
Why do so many American parents (so damn shallow and puerile) NEITHER respect nor - therefore? - listen to their children? Why do they usurp their children's interests, and exploit them for their own agendas?
If your son closes his mind off from science or from butterflies, specifically, or closes his interests off from you because it creates "big issues" about god or an argument with Mom, etc., because of your shallow parenting, you bear the responsibility! Like some parents I know, you do not respect the intelligence your son has already demonstrated - I don't understand why you CANNOT see that. Rather, you, like so many other irresponsible parents, are willing to risk his 'turning off' his curiosity because of your issues with religion - that is so reprehensibly selfish!!!
Human beings can modify their beliefs as they become better informed - what a 10-year-old child believes AINT the measure of what he will believe at 11 or 12 or when an adult!!!
I'm not a Christian, but my son asks me enormously difficult theological questions which I welcome: If god created everything that exists, then who created god? Rather than telling him "God, doesn't exist" (as if I had the goods on that question) I further motivate his inquisitiveness, and encourage him to think more deeply about, eg, infinity and essence - I answered, "that's what people mean by saying god's power is infinite," "that's supposed to be part of his essence."

So-called parents should be parents to their children, and stop being so self-centered in the way they construe their children's questions and statements.

Some advice: go to the store/library and pick up a book on butterflies, and read it with with your son! Tell him about the monarchs coming up from Mexico!!! The Earth is his home too, and you aint got the right to try to fix for him how he appropriates its incredible mystery!!!

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It would seem this father is trying to indoctrinate his children instead of letting them think for themselves.
Get rid of all the books! Stop pestering the kids and worrying about what they believe. He loved their mother enough to start a family with her even though she was a Christian. Would it be so awful if they were too? Simply love them for who they are.
BTW, I am agnostic and my 17 year old son is too, but we have family that we love who are Christians.

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I too am an atheist married to a christian. I agree with posters above who basically are saying, don't worry, there's not a hell of a lot you can do to rationally convince a 6 year-old who still believes in Santa that, e.g., Josephus's Testimonium Flavianium in the Antiquities is probably a forgery. Better to enjoy your time with your precious children while they are small and let the chips fall where they may...maybe Theo and Elijah will end up being hard-core believers, but on the other hand they may turn out to be atheists, or on the gripping hand may become Scientologists! That's why my philosophy is, let mom say whatever she wants but if they ask me straight out about god or the supernatural I will tell them exactly what I think; they can take it or leave it.

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I can only hope and pray that your son has really met Jesus and that you're unable to talk him out of his faith. I hope it for his sake, and for yours.

I even hope that your son's faith is so strong that it draws you in to a living walk with God in Christ Jesus. He's 'the only game in town.' He loves you so much he died to be able to give you his life, if only you'll take it. And his father raised him again to vouch for it.

I've known Jesus some 61 years and he's never done me any wrong.

In His Love

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Its a start. But the best thing you can do is bring him to the museum of natural history. That will open his eyes up... make sure he sees that a lot of cultures believe in a lot of different religions ... then maybe hell see the commonalities and respect their differences. he'll figure it all out eventually.

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If you looked at it from a child's perspective... they don't know if God exists or not. Actually, neither do the rest of us.
That is the explanation, simple to understand. Do not push one agenda or another. Just help the thinking process and let him come to his own conclusions in time.

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with apologies for the bad line breaks

"At the Smithville Methodist Church"

It was supposed to be Arts & Crafts for a week,
but when she came home
with the "Jesus Saves" button,
we knew what art
was up, what ancient craft.

She liked her little friends.
She liked the songs they sang when they weren't
twisting and folding paper into dolls.
What could be so bad?

Jesus had been a good man,
and putting faith
in good men was what
we had to do to stay this side of cynicism,
that other sadness.

OK, we said, One week.
But when she came home
singing "Jesus loves me,
the Bible tells me so," it was time to talk.
Could we say Jesus doesn't love you?
Could I tell her the Bible
is a great book certain people use
to make you feel bad? We sent her back
without a word.

It had been so long since we believed,
so long since we needed Jesus
as our nemesis and friend, that we thought he was sufficiently dead,
that our children would think of him
like Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson.

Soon it became clear to us:
you can't teach disbelief
to a child,
only wonderful stories, and we hadn't a story
nearly as good.

On parents' night there were the Arts & Crafts
all spread out like appetizers. Then we took our seats in the church
and the children sang a song about the Ark, and Hallelujah
and one in which they had to jump up and down
for Jesus.
I can't remember ever feeling so uncertain
about what's comic, what's serious.

Evolution is magical but devoid of heroes.
You can't say to your child
"Evolution loves you." The story stinks
of extinction and nothing exciting happens for centuries.

I didn't have a wonderful story for my child
and she was beaming. All the way home in the car
she sang the songs, occasionally standing up for Jesus.

There was nothing to do
but drive, ride it out, sing along
in silence.

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Familiar story. I was born and raised Atheist in a society where atheism was mandatory for all, and we had no access to information on world religions and philosophies. Growing up, my mother taught me to question, and check for logical consistency, everything I heard. I'm still not sure why it came to her as a surprise when I converted to religion at 22. I was just tired of the primitive, blunt, "astronauts saw no God, so there isn't any" atheism of my childhood, and wanted to explore other options.
Over the next 20 years, I moved through a number of Christian churches, starting with the Baptists and ending on a far-left side of a very laid-back, liberal Greek Orthodox church. I also had two sons, that I took to church every week. Sunday school, altar boys, the works. At the same time, throughout their lives, I taught them to apply logical reasoning, question everything, basically same things I was taught growing up. They both quit church when they were in 7th grade. Both are Atheist now, starting 8th and 11th grades in the fall. After extensive reading and research, I've decided to follow them out of church. I'll stop by my church next month, to return the balance of my stewardship pledge, my Sunday School textbooks (I've been teaching for the last couple of years), and tell my fellow parisioners I need some time off to sort things out. Is this the end of my journey - I don't think so. One thing I learned is, you can never settle in your worldview. At the very least you ought to stay up to date with natural and historical science, and see where that leads you.
To recap:
1)like everyone else has said, do not consider your kids hopelessly indoctrinated until their teenage years. This is when they're going to figure things out on their own. They may or may not end up with the same worldview you have, but they will make their own decisions.
2)teach them logical reasoning, teach them to recognize fallacies and gaps in logic as they encounter them in daily life. Religious reasons aside, it will help them avoid getting scammed and/or taken advantage of. I always tell people that I raised my kids on South Park. Starting from ages 8 and 10, I'd sit down with them, watch an episode, and discuss the critical-thinking parts of it together with them. A very unorthodox approach, I'll admit, but it went a long way in teaching my kids to reason logically.
One of the implications of this approach, is that you cannot teach your children to obey you blindly, no questions asked. You'll have to teach them to question anything they hear from anybody, including yourself.
3)gifted classes, honor classes, AP classes. Amazing coincidence, there are very few devoutly religious kids attending those. Get your children into as many of those classes as you can.
4)the internet is your friend. i'm amazed at the number of people who won't let their children near a computer without adult supervision. There is a lot of religious discussion taking place on newgrounds bbs, and other similar forums where nerdy kids hang out. My kids got exposed to a variety of worldviews, and learned a lot from these venues.
This should be enough to get you started, good luck.

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I was raised a christian fundamentalist, and at age 21 reached a point in my journey that I became atheist and gradually more freethinking. I am now either weakly atheistic or strongly agnostic, depending on your wording. I had to play a parental role for my sister while she was navigating a similar religious upbringing.

An attitude of loving pragmatism is important. You love them for who they are, and maybe your child will want to immerse themselves within a social group. What matters is that we want answers to life, our problems, our solutions. We do not need to be militant against myths that foster healthy respect and relationships. We need to guard against fundamentalism, particularly its hateful forms.

Applying free thought is important. Christianity has some positive messages, but its often idealistic and doesn't tell you how to reach those ideals in concrete, real-life situations. You have to freely think to some level to love someone. You need to make choices that are good for people. Rules of thumb fall short. Distant metaphysics become disappointing.

Set an inspiring example and your child will value free thinking, whatever label they decide. If they believe in religion to some degree, an active mind and a focus on being a good person will keep away the toxic manifestations.

I think that way of life is more important than book recommendations over doctrinal labels. It wins in the long run, trust me.

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Every years you can see him, hear him, feel him and then he goes home to his wife and kids.

My 6 years old daughter however was convinced that mom and dad had to pay the presents she got.
He cannot give all the children , then he has nothing left for his own kids.

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i don't think you have anything to worry about. your son theo is already raising questions about why, if jesus (or god, or the trinity, or whoever) invented butterflies, he kills them after only two weeks of life. makes no sense, does it. neither does religion, when you begin to think seriously about it, and theo is already beginning to do so and understand that. relax, he'll grow up to be a humanist.

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Listen, the people who say you should just give up are wrong. The people who say you should pick up a book and hand it to the kid and "logically" the kid will be swayed are wrong. Come on. You get some points in my book for trying and going to bookstores, but in a way it's sort of lazy. I mean, it sounds like you wandered into this situation. You had to know that having kids with a very religious woman would turn out this way.

Let me appeal to your logic and see how this turns out: you need to look at yourself first and how you can change the situation. Here's some things to do:
First of all, there's a whole bunch of material on You Tube. Search it out.
Second of all, co-parent. If you are saying that "some people believe" and mommy is giving a different message, you both should get on the tolerance train. You can't expect to talk to a kid about it, if you can't talk to the most significant adult in their lives and ask for her to insert a "some people believe."
Third, take the kid to visit other free thinkers kids. And even take the kid to other religious services that are non-Christian. The emotional impact of all the other kids in the world going to hell is a game changer. Also, to clearly poke holes in the Bible and the stories. It will be emotional that mommy and daddy don't agree, but the earlier they learn to live with it, the more natural it is.

All these people who say "do nothing, what can you do" well, the church they are going to and their mother are providing multi-media and social experiences in the myths. Go to a bigger town or a summer camp or social events with freethinkers with your kid and get them involved in how to survive emotionally and socially if you don't believe in the Sky Daddy. Now, doing this may not be your cup of tea - reading a book may do it for you - but this isn't about your survival without Sky Daddy, it's about the kids. They need multimedia, social support, come-backs and questions, and to be presented with other kids "going to hell" and doing just fine.

Buying a book and assuming that's all you can do is pretty weak (I mean come on, did a book do it for you at that age? Go ahead and get books, but you have to provide other survival elements). It's kind of like wandering into this situation without much thought like you did. I mean, come on. The kids are HOW old and you are just now thinking about it is too late and out of your hands? There's a place for you to look to yourself to change too AND to become a better thinker.

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Blu Ray Burner|||MTS Converter For Mac can easily convert MTS files to other popular video/audio formats.

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If you want your son to have an authentic spiritual grounding, you should talk to him about the origins of religion, specifically Christianity, since that's what he's exposed to. CHRISTIANITY BEFORE CHRIST by John G. Jackson explains how many beliefs and symbols in Christianity-the savior/hero born of a virgin for example-existed in many religions long before the Christian era. Christianity's madonna and child evolved from the Egyptian Osiris-Horus myth. According to Jocelyn Rhys' STOLEN CREEDS: THE VIRGIN BIRTH DOCTRINE, "Horus was said to be the ...child of the Virgin Mother Isis. In the catacombs of Rome, black statues of this Egyptian divine Mother and Infant still survive from the early Christian worship of the Virgin and Child to which they were converted. In these, the Virgin Mary is represented as a black ...Statues of the goddess Isis with the child Horus in her arms were common in Egypt, and were exported to all neighboring and to many remote countries (thus the origin of the Black Madonnas). Another post was bothered about your son stating that the picture "looked like Jesus". How do we know what Jesus looked like? The portraits we commonly see, commissioned during the European renaissance, were modeled after the residents of that time and place. There is the reference from Revelations describing Jesus as having hair like wool and feet like bronze. Only ancient Ethiopian portraits of Jesus look like that.

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I think its not so much the content, but the method covered. If you want to counter Christianity, I would strongly suggest reading C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia to your kids.

Then discuss it.

"So, Aslan let Narnia suffer under the White Witch for hundreds of years, then showed up and fixed everything in a couple days. Why do you think he let all those creatures be tormented for so long before showing up? Are those the actions of a 'Good Guy'?"

And so on and so forth. Let the stories introduce the ideas while you introduce the criticism, directed towards the allegorical tales, and they will almost certainly carry that criticism into biblical criticism.

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If you have access to a UU church in your area, I suggest you go just for yourself in order to meet and talk with other parents in your situation. The UU church I attend has many parenting groups, workshops and classes offered during the week as well as Religious Education and adult discussion groups on Sunday. The website uua.org will give you information and perhaps some reassurance that you are not alone.

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When your Son ask about Santa Claus, fairies, Easter bunny, ghost, and all those other tales of ignorance just add God, Jesus, and the rest of the crowd. He will soon get the message. Also, being a FREETHINKER is much better than being labelled by the religious community as an Atheist.

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First off, the premise that being a Christian intrinsically means that someone is not a 'free thinker' is prejudice, not reason. It is just as degrading and offensive as the premise promulgated by some people, that atheists are intrinsically immoral and incapable of behaving ethically.

In other words, the article itself violates Alternet's own policy: "AlterNet will not tolerate racist, sexist or other discriminatory or hateful language".

Second, the author's attempt to control the outcome of his son's education about religion, seeks to negate his child's ability to think freely for himself, and decide for himself, what schools of thought have meaning for him.

Lastly, the author's assumption that his child has been indoctrinated, rather than finding value for himself in the information provided at church, indicates that the author has very little respect for his son.

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My children were raised as Humanists--attended Ethical Culture Sunday school(were exposed to lots of humanistic children's books),lived with me, their ethical/atheist mother. Three of my four seemed quite content with this, and those three, now in their forties/fifty, have not found a need for religion. My third son, however, at twelve, asked me to take him to Temple (I am what one would call "a cultural Jew.") I told him that I would certainly take him, but that the adults there might--would probably expect me to join--which I could not do. That is precisely what happened, and so after a while, he found it uncomfortable to go. For college, he attended a southern school, met and fell in love with an extremely religious, Southern Baptist girl; and he converted to her religion. They came to me and said they appreciated that I was being "broadminded" about the religion thing (what else could I do?) I responded, that was OK, as long as they promised to be "broadminded" when they had children of their own who might make other choices. But somehow, religion gets into the fat cells of a child at an early age, and is nearly impossible to shake off. Now, their wonderful children are of college age and, as far as I know, are still true believers. I don't know what I could have done differently--after all, the most important thing to me was not to lose my son or make him choose between a wife and a mother (the mother inevitably loses). So here we are now 25 years later...we just don't discuss religion (or politics). I am very Ghandi-like, and that's the very best I can do. I can't deny that I harbor a secret hope that, being out in the world, the grandchildren may have the strength or outside influences to form independent takes on religion. I have a really good relationship with the these young people, and in fact with everyone mentioned--the religious and the non-religious (perhaps my daughter in law is a bit wary of me/to be expected). But,all of the individuals mentioned are really fine people--kind, and highly accomplished too. My other three "children" (now in their forties/fifty) just accept that their brother and his family have this aberration, but love them anyway. When I look back, all other courses of action seemed fraught with land mines. What do you think?

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Relax don't panic or you'll push him to it. The more you say the more he'll try to stand up for mommy. They ask questions eventually and you just answer honestly with out persecution. "This is how I feel" and maybe a little on why you feel this way.When your child notices someone different, talk about it with out preaching or you'll end up becoming what you don't like about religions. Hopefully they have diverse friends growing up and see all different approaches to "faith". I'm an atheist but some times I've thought maybe I wouldn't be if I had be brought up as say a Quaker or Unitarian or Buddhist. Maybe one of the kinder gentler approaches to religion.

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How can a "just GOD" proclaim to a segment of the world's populace, "you (Jews) are my "Chosen people" - I have never been able to figure this out any more than I have been able to determine how Israel has been able to maintain it's illegal Dimona Nuclear Facilities? Maybe someone out there in open forum land can answer this question.

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Well, probably you don't. Free thinkers are born in and of themselves. No one who buys into what either parent believes is a free thinker. And no one who makes up their mind about anything and decides to stick with that belief, assumption, or point of view from this day forward is one either. If you've decided to follow Catholicism without question to the end of your days, you quit thinking. If you've decided that you're an atheist from now on without further thought, you just quit thinking. The hardest but most rewarding and interesting path is to continue examining what YOU think, not just criticizing what others think.

I'd say if you wanted to really raise a free thinker, let them see one in action. Let them see someone who reads things, watches things, that shake up previously-held and even cherished convictions. Let them see you put down a book and say, "Wow, I never looked at things this way before!" or "This never occurred to me." When your little kids ask the big questions they start asking at the age of 4 or so, be brave enough to not indoctrinate them, but to give open-ended answers so that they do think, not just arrive at "the" point of view and drop anchor.

But no real free thinker believes that they can put a point of view into their child's head and have it remain intact. How would that even BE thinking? If your kid is curious (they all are) and you encourage that, you're doing your job. Anyone curious is always investigating other points of view. If they don't affect you, if you don't look back on yourself ten years ago and see that you moved on from that life stance based upon new information, you are not a free thinker. Rigidity is not thought, and strong opinions are a dime a dozen. So is the urge to convert and correct, apparently.

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That Alter-net was the anti-Christ haven.

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I deal with this issue as well. My son lives with his mother who is a Christian and I am not. I'm not a hard core "humanist" either (whatever that is!), more of a laid back agnostic. I believe you can only prove things about god inside your own heart and different people's hearts accept the proofs of different things. My son, eleven, accepts my beliefs and my tolerance of other's beliefs while exploring his own. He believes in God but likes to t