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ForeignPolicy

Theocrats Deny 'End Times' Theology Is Cause of Their Push for War With Iran

By Sarah Posner, AlterNet. Posted July 23, 2007.


At the Christians United for Israel Summit, Joe Lieberman embraces the Christian nation, Jewish journalists get expelled, and attendees fret about the Iranian president's "12th Imam."
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Here's a news flash from the recent Christians United for Israel (CUFI) Summit in Washington: It really isn't about Armageddon.

Or at least that's what John Hagee, who runs CUFI, and CUFI's executive board tried to convince a group of reporters at a press conference this week. Journalists (including this one) had questions about Hagee's writings and sermons. Does his discussion of God's punishment of Jews suggest his own anti-Semitism? What about the Second Coming, when everyone will either accept Christ as their savior or perish? What, exactly, does Hagee think is going to happen at the end of days?

The reaction of Hagee and his board -- former Reagan administration official and Republican presidential candidate Gary Bauer, former Promise Keepers chair George Morrison, self-described "Christocrat" Rod Parsley, former Republican Senate candidate Bishop Keith Butler and Mac Hammond, a close friend of Rep. Michelle Bachmann (R-Fool for Christ) -- ranged from mock outrage to patronizing amusement. Hagee insisted that "our support of Israel has absolutely nothing to do with end times prophecy. It has absolutely nothing to do with eschatology." Hammond maintained that we were getting "distracted" by the discussion. Followup questions were cut off. They sighed in exasperation at questions about the end times, which they insist are near. When a reporter from the Associated Baptist Press asked the group if they considered themselves premillenial dispensationalists -- people who believe that we are fast approaching a final showdown between Christ and the Antichrist at Armageddon -- they smirked and looked at each other as if to say, "What was that big word?"

Their where-in-the-world-did-you-get-that-idea method of deflecting questions was straight from White House press flack Tony Snow's playbook.

They insisted that they came to Washington to talk politics, not eschatology. But when someone asked about CUFI's position on the proposal Bush had laid out the day before to restart the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, they were stumped -- it turned out that they had not yet reviewed a major presidential announcement on their raison d'etre. A few hours later, Hagee told his minions that CUFI was "deeply disappointed" by Bush's speech, particularly by his use of the term "occupation." (Specifically, Bush said -- heretically to their cause -- that "Palestinians should not have to live in poverty and occupation.") Almost simultaneously with Hagee's announcement, Tony Snow played down Bush's statement, telling reporters, "even though I know I used the term 'conference' this morning, this is a meeting ... I think a lot of people are inclined to try to treat this as a big peace conference. It's not."

Just as it had been during Hagee's appearance at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) last spring, every effort was made to whitewash his apocalyptic religious beliefs (which include enforced Christianity for his Jewish allies at the end) and present him as a good friend of Israel and Jews. But Hagee's most recent book, Jerusalem Countdown, reissued with new material earlier this year, is all about the end of days and how nuclear war with Iran will ignite it. Hagee frequently talks about how Jesus Christ will rule the world from a throne on the Temple Mount after the battle at Armageddon. Hagee admits he has "written extensively about why I believe that the generation that is alive today will see the mass ingathering of believers commonly called the Rapture." He has claimed that "when you see what's happening in America and the world it doesn't take long to realize that God is proclaiming through the voice of nature that we are approaching the coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven." In September Hagee preached that "World War III has begun" and released a sermon series that purported to "show the historical and Biblical foundations that explain the war we are in now and point us to Armageddon." In January he wrote about the Book of Revelation and its prediction that "Jesus Christ rules the world with a rod of iron from the city of Jerusalem." And in March, he sermonized about "the edge of time ... the final countdown has begun."


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See more stories tagged with: hagee, religious right, lieberman, neocons, iran

Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for the American Prospect, The Gadflyer and AlterNet. Her book God's Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters will be published by PoliPoint Press next year.



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Enlightenment rejected, class nationalism/fascism-Zionims embraced
Posted by: Perfectclue on Jul 23, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have offered many responses, with regards to political issues, that push back, yet extend the ideological framework from its narrow class liberal and class neocon perspective, by revisiting the issue of the Enlightenment and making the argument of its betrayal. My point, often, has to do with the corruption of ideology through a historical mechanism, that occurs when the middle classes are only partially developed, stunted and deformed by a new class order, like Capitalism, which subordinates and corrupts its middle layers, as all oligarchies do, throughout our 3000 plus years of class rule.

The corruption of the middle layers into deformed class elites, as class aplogists, and the development of class hierarchies to filter out democracy, and corrupt the meaning of original revolutionary movements, like the revolutionary liberals of the Enlightenment has everything to do with Joe Lieberman, class nationalism, and the failure of Western democracy, including the American revolution. The universal, moral and social basis of the Enlightenment, with its Age of Reason, and search for classical, macro laws in both Nature and the social realm, had an ideological, revolutionary framework, moral, and international outlook that was based on inclusive principles, not exclusive principles. The false social claims of all class societies, including Capitalism, that they are based on a social principle of wealth and democracy and national unity, comes up against the goal of developing the middle class as the social agency, who would reproduce social wealth, and moral democratic values, that is inherently the moral center, since it is itself an all encompassing, growing social dynamic, that does not need class masters, or class elites which would signify the betrayal of the Enlightenment.

Unfortunately, the rise of the merchant, industrial classes, replacing the social principle and its revolutionary moral center, put property rights over human rights, thus stunting and deforming the middle class agency, and corrupting the universal middle center, into class elites, class nationalism, and class Empire. A middle class without class masters as the successful outcome of a social principle of wealth, was replaced with displaced class center, that were in fact to the right, of the center, what they call the "extreme left". The collapse and betrayal of the Enlightenment meant the regeneration of generic class corruption, negating the goal of eliminating the Feudal class society, and all class societies, for a new class order, dressed in new clothes. The virulent class nationalism and its class Empires, from Napoleon, French, English Empire to the Nazi corporate fascist empire is but an expression of this betrayal.

Today it is the Amerikan Empire with its newly dressed corporate state, corporate fascism, that is now the norm for Western Late Capitalism. It embraces not only the rot of its own decaying class nationalist fascism, but the rot of Israeli class nationalism, which murdered millions of Jews in Nazi Germany. Lieberman would rather embrace the rot of "exclusion", the concept of the chosen people, Jews, and the concept of class exclusion, class nationalism, fascism, to promote Zionism, and Amerikanism. That is why he his promoting nuclear war against Iran, and that is why he is called the "Senator from Israel." We have many Lieberman's within the democratic party, who are willing partners to Bush's Empire in the Middle East. Both class parties, democrats and republicans are party to the rot of exclusion, class exclusion, and have failed to uphold the principles of the Enlightenment, because these class liberals are the betrayers. We must dismantle the oligarchy, corrupt class hiearchy and restore the Enlightenment, and Socialist movement, that was its heir, to reclaim our history, and reject Lieberman's embrace of the dark forces of fascism and racism, and class nationalism.

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» Why the bourgeois rhetoric? Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Why the bourgeois rhetoric? Posted by: Perfectclue
» My Point Still Stands Posted by: pdxstudent
» Brevity, Brevity, Please... Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: Brevity, Brevity, Please... Posted by: Perfectclue
» Is it within the power Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» Lobbying for Armageddon Posted by: etisoppa
talk eschatology, not politics.
Posted by: jw56 on Jul 23, 2007 4:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They insisted that they came to Washington to talk politics, not eschatology.

These guys would bother me less if they stuck to eschatology and left politics alone. Hagee is a blow-hard. He should shut up. He doesn't care anything about the TRUTH. He (and D.J. Kennedy, Jim Dobson, et al) want to inflame the middle east because they think the 2nd Coming of Christ needs a trigger to get started.

Jesus Christ said, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." Acts 1:7

If they claim to believe in Jesus, they should believe what Jesus said.

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In the words of John Lennon...
Posted by: Wexler on Jul 23, 2007 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Imagine no religion..."

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The Signs of the Times
Posted by: Basenjis on Jul 23, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although it is a little early in the day to listen to the ravings of John Hagee, I managed to get through his video which brought back memories of my fundamentalist childhood.

As a child during the Great Depression, I and my siblings were taken to tent meetings and storefront gospel centers by our fundamentalist mother where we were subjected to countless hours of this type of hysterical ranting by itinerate preachers "called" by God to warn others of the coming end times. After I began to think for myself, I considered such wild imaginings the result of ignorance as most of these people were uneducated, unread and untravelled and possibly lacking in IQ.

Consequently, I have found it nothing short of amazing that these strange apocalyptic fantasies have spread over the country like some virus and are preached from the pulpits of huge churches and to large TV audiences.

These people are obsessed with the notion that those whose world view and spiritual insights differ from theirs, deserve the wrath of an angry and vindictive deity for a failure of belief. Their biblical quotes are selective, preferring the terrifying hightmarish images from the Book of Revelations or to the warnings of some gloomy old testament prophet of doom to the Sermonn on the Mount or the simple definition of God as love to define Christianity.

The time may come when religious obsessions with their emphasis on fear and eternal punishment and damnation will be seen for what they probably are--a form of mental illness that distorts and twists reality and, in its extreme form, become a serious danger to others.

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» RE: The Signs of the Times Posted by: douglashoyt
» The Times Never Change... Posted by: CatDad
Hagee is Hysterical
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jul 23, 2007 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This crowd of religious nuts are barking mad.

People like that will bring on the "end times" whether or not it has any root in religion or "gods plan."

Impeachment and removal from office is the only way to stop Bush, Cheney, Hagee and their co-conspirators from bombing Iran, Pakistan, and possibly the whole world.

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Selective Bible Reading
Posted by: Alladin on Jul 23, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it that these supposed Christ-loving dispensationalists devote their preaching to rambling vengance from the Old Testament and Revalations? They are for war and killing and exclude preaching Jesus' lessons from the Sermon On The Mount. These people must have schizophrenic nightmares - tryiing to reconcile their bloodthirstiness with their turn-the-other-cheek (or NOT) theology. And, scariest of all is that they don't see any contradiction in that.

Lieberman is the consumate whore in that he'll embrace any organization that supports his one true love - Israel!

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» RE: Selective Bible Reading Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Selective Bible Reading Posted by: LeeAnnG
Christianity Has Fundamentalists Who Push for Violence in the Name of Their Faith Too
Posted by: vivachavez on Jul 23, 2007 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is just further evidence of what has been obvious to many for a long time: groups and individuals claiming to be "Christian" have and are advocating massive violence in the name of advancing their warped interpretation of religion.

I never want to see a Conservative claiming that there is something fundamentally different about Islam and that only Muslims resort to violence to proselytize and spread their view of the Koran.

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Bible Memory Work 101
Posted by: k_pr on Jul 23, 2007 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:18

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." - Jesus, Matthew 43-45a

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» Please! Posted by: opeluboy
» RE: Please! Posted by: laz000
Questions?
Posted by: TruthBeTold on Jul 23, 2007 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- Why aren't these people sending their children to Iraq to fight for our freedom?

- Are we to believe that they will send their children to fight in Iran and if so, why aren't they joining the military go get ready for Iran?

- How could people who are jewish associate themselves with a group that calls for their conversion to christianity? Support for Isreal is one thing but knowing that these nut jobs plan to destroy you if you don't change to their religion is really kooky.

- Why hasn't Joe Liebermann converted to christianity?

- Why aren't Liebermann's children and grandchildren servin in the military in Iraq. Matthew Lieberman, Rebecca Lieberman, Ethan Lieberman, Hana Lieberman, Tennessee Lieberman Willie Lieberman, Eden Lieberman and Yitzhak Lieberman can't serve but other people's can?

- Why don't the people of Connecticut recall this guy? Surely he is a stain on their state.

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» RE: Questions? Posted by: freethink7
Rejecting the spiritual does not make you "enlightened."
Posted by: BJT on Jul 23, 2007 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is all.

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» But Posted by: bookie
VIOLENCE is what America was built on and credit with since its "founding"
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 23, 2007 7:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
or shall I say STEALING from the Native Americans and VIOLENCE is what is bringing this country DOWN THE TOILET just like the Roman Empire except its faster and even WORSE. Of course Joe LIEberman would rather side with the fascists and deny that the Holocaust ever happened.

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MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 23, 2007 8:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So armed with all this knowledge, when does the troop withdrawal begin. Any word on that from the great thinkers and holy people. It's all very interesting but just not practical. In reading about what's really happening in Iraq this is all irrelevant. Thanks, ANNA

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So, like why then.........?
Posted by: NumberSix on Jul 23, 2007 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. "

Well, I says to myself, if that's the case, then why do so many of these fruitcakes think they're CLUED IN ON THE EVENT? M'kay? Yoohoo! Anyone? Got God's number in your rolodex? You do??? Amazing!!!

You'd think....snicker...the pious would then, armed with this factoid, live their lives as fully as possible, tend to those in need, treat others like extended family, and let God worry about Doomsday.

No, that would be logical. My bad!

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The REAL enemies of America.
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 23, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The importance of religion in Bush’s role as commander-in-chief was raised by Bob Woodward in his 2004 bestseller, Plan of Attack.

Woodward said George W. claimed he was on a mission from God to spread democracy throughout the Muslim world. To blow his “I love the Lord” façade to smithereens, one need only ask the simple question: Who would Jesus torture?

The answer, of course, is no one, which creates two conclusions. Either Shrub is a charlatan or he’s a born-again hypocrite. I fear the latter.

Assume for a moment the president is an evangelical who believes the Old Testament but considers the new version a book of suggestions. If so, Bush thinks we’re in the Last Days, Armageddon will come during his lifetime along with the Rapture, and he will shoot up to Heaven like a Roman candle. That would explain his dismissive approach to global warming. After all, if these actually are the End Times, then concern about Earth becoming too hot in 50 years is meaningless.

Even worse, if Bush believes Armageddon is coming, he may be trying on a subconscious level to urge it on. What better way to inflame ancient enemies—Arabs, Persians, Palestinians and Jews—than by promoting a Middle East war of choice?

Evidence of Dub-ya’s messianic thinking was provided by a BBC transcript published on Oct. 6, 2005. The text quoted two Palestinian leaders, Prime Minister Abu Mazen and his deputy, Nabil Shaath, after they met privately with George W. in June 2003.

According to the UK report, Bush said to Mazen and Shaath, “I’m driven with a mission from God. He told me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan’ and I did. Then God told me, ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’ and I did. Now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me: Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East, and, by God, I’m gonna do it.”

Assuming he wasn’t fibbing and God isn’t an idiot, there can only be two explanations for Shrub hearing words in his head. He’s either schizophrenic or the voice belonged to Dick Cheney.

As for Joe Lieberman, he showed his anti-Islamic, imperialist agenda by co-chairing the White House Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI) -- established in 2002 by Bruce Jackson, a PNAC director.

A rightwing hawk in liberal clothing, Lieberman rubbed elbows at CLI meetings with PNAC members Jeane Kirkpatrick, Robert Kagan, Newt Gingrich, Richard Perle, William Kristol and James Woolsey.

AlterNet visitors unfamiliar with the rightwing subversive organization, Project for a New American Century (PNAC), its founders include Gulf War 2 architects Cheney, Scooter Libby, Don Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz.

President Bush is connected to PNAC through his brother, Jeb, an original member.

During the Clinton administration, PNAC published a position paper advocating the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. Eeerily the report predicted the first preemptive war in U.S. history would be supported by the American people if they suffered a "catastrophic and catalyzing Pearl Harbor-type event" (PNAC's words). Thus, to Bush and his neocon cabal, 9/11 was an excuse to attack Iraq, not a cause.

There is only one word that truly describes Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and their lapdog, Love Me Lieberman: TRAITORS.

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet and editor of the nonprofit investigative website, King-George.biz, which features 50 cartoons, photos and other Bushwhacking illustrations plus the only hardcopy proof of White House corruption ever found on the Internet.

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» RE: The REAL enemies of America. Posted by: wmGreybeard
?----Seperation of Church and State....??
Posted by: wmGreybeard on Jul 23, 2007 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lieberman gave a big clue to his position at a gathering of CUFI major donors Monday night. "America is a faith-based initiative," said the former Democrat. "We are not endowed by the great thinkers of the Enlightenment but endowed by our Creator ... Anyone who tries to separate American government from faith," he added, "is doing something profoundly unnatural."

Joe:, have you forgotten the first amendment to our constitution?

I have been an Independent most, if not all my life. And I believe our two party system is the second, most corrupt political system on earth.

Joe became an Independent, only because he was a looser in the Democratic Party. He was already a supporter of GWB in the destruction of our constitution.

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Theological and Political Conundrums for Pastor Hagee
Posted by: COinms on Jul 23, 2007 9:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An interesting sideline to this story is the role that Bible Students have played in Christian Zionism. C.T. Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell) was arguably one of the first Christian Zionists and probably the most influential. He was also very famous and well regarded, except by mainstream Christianity. His articles appeared in newspapers all over the world after the turn of the century. While others were predicting peace for the 20th century, he pointed consistently to 1914 as the year for the ending of the Gentile Times. Many feel this was verified by the outbreak of WW1.

He had his prophetic understandings about the end times and Israel, but there were several key differences. Br. Russell did not try to convert the Jews. He absolutely felt that they should stay Jewish and actually increase their love for Israel and for the Torah, and gave that message to a mass meeting of leading Hebrew citizens in New York.

Pastor Russell did not believe Jews and others who did not convert to christianity(?) would burn in eternal torment; rather, they (and all mankind except the Church) would be resurrected right here on Earth.
He consistently taught that based on the 'Law and the Prophets' (types, prophetic fullfillments of events, and time prophecy) that Jesus had actually literally, albeit invisibly, returned in the fall of 1874 and his Parousia (mistranslated 'coming') was the reason for the re-establishment of the state of Israel. To this day, some jewish groups reject the validity of the state of Israel because Messiah was to establish it. Br. Russell taught that Messiah HAD established it.

The Lord's Second Presence was not his message to the Jews, however. His idea was that anti-semitism would drive Jews to Israel, and indeed that has happened.

His legacy has been carried on down through the 20th century by some Bible Students down to our day. I'm sure Pastor Hagee would like to have 130 years of pro-zionist history but since Russell was not a trinitarian, he is off limits to orthodox/rightwing christianity.

Yet the Bible Students retain a singular relationship with Israel. Our non-proselytizing stance is recognized by Jews for Judaism, and other Jewish organizations. Our DVD's are shown in synagogues and yeshivas and homes the world over, but no one has heard of us. Some have met with David BenGurion, and with the Knesset, for years and years before CUFI was first a nightmare in Hagee's brain.

The evangelicals have a double-edged embrace. They were walking the razor's edge at this conference. On hand, they pay for conversion efforts towards the Jews (they want to get 144,000) and on the other hand they want Jews to be their theological kewpie dolls.

The spokesperson for Hagee said that he 'wears two hats'. Maybe he just talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Anyone who is interested in this work can find out more at

http://www.israelsdestiny.com/

I know that our message is not welcomed by the majority of christian zionists because we are way outside of mainstream christianity. Keep up the good work of exposing these 'theocrats'.

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They believe...
Posted by: bob t on Jul 23, 2007 9:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that April 29, 2007 was the beginning of the 'end times'.
Bush is one of them. If they want it to happen badly enough they will make it happen.

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» RE: They believe... Posted by: freethink7
» RE: They believe... Posted by: Lauren
What Would Jefferson Say?
Posted by: ag7 on Jul 23, 2007 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.. Jefferson expressed himself strongly on that larger apocalypse, the Book of Revelation, in a letter to Alexander Smyth of 17 January 1825: it is "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." Apocalyptic writing deserved no commentary, for "what has no meaning admits no explanation"; therefore, apocalyptic prophecies associated with Jesus deserved and would receive no attention from Jefferson in his Life and Morals of Jesus. (E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 287.)
Quotations of our Founders

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Can do it better...
Posted by: lurchleft on Jul 23, 2007 10:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article unfortunately seems to transparently contradict itself from the get go, ‘Does his discussion of God's punishment of Jews suggest his own anti-Semitism?’ straight to ‘our support of Israel has absolutely nothing to do with end times prophecy. It has absolutely nothing to do with eschatology.’…

I have had the misfortune of coming across Hagee’s programming and this guy has two flags hanging in his church. One is the American flag and the other, flying at the same height is the Israeli flag.

Additionally, Sarah derides so much said by Hagee about God and the bible (which Hagee describes as the "word of the living God ... the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”) yet later attempts to claim Judaism as her own. (If Hagee is unfamiliar with the great Jewish tradition of debate, he can come to Shabbat dinner at my house.)

What exactly is going on here?

I see this as another poorly written attack and attempt at discrediting the Christian Right when in reality it is doing nothing more than showing extreme bias and zero tolerance… at least they are free to express their beliefs correct?

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» RE: Can do it better... Posted by: Drclaw
Folks?
Posted by: Pirate1 on Jul 23, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All I can say is this is what BELIEVING gets you. If you are foolish enough to believe this nonsense then Armageddon is what you deserve and then maybe what survives will at last be free of these enslaving ideas that have done nothing but serve the rich and powerful by keeping the masses weak and under control. They want most of you humbled down to dumb so there is less competition for their game of "own it all", which is absurd on it's face if you think about it. What is owning but an agreement that as long as you can pay the fees to hold a place that no one else will be able to buy it away from you. Ask any number of former family farmers in middle amurica about ownership. It's all a game you play because you've heard from day one that this is why you are here. Wake up! You're being ripped off and denied the life you deserve by following these creaps. These men of power are the very sort who had Christ slain. They will slay all of us to fulfill the notions behind their beliefs. They are nuts.

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Ted Haggard Repudiated Israel’s Occupation and Violence….Was He Set Up?
Posted by: freethink7 on Jul 23, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Haggard urged Sharon/Israel on several occasions to negotiate with Palestine and end their relentless occupation and violence. Also, he and his church were incensed over Israel’s attack of Lebanon last summer. Haggard and his congregation were vociferous and adamant about Iran: They would not support U.S./Israel attack against Iran.

What’s going on here? Did Haggard really have gay affair with all the mainstream media sensational/salacious drug trappings, or was something more sinister occurring……his fundamentalist church did not tow the line for Israel. He also denounced the “End of Times” theory purported by most evangelical Christian churches. Did U.S./Israel’s political powers and the mainstream press launch an attack on him forcing him to leave the church, or did he really engage in this lurid extramarital affair?

Please no comments about my religious beliefs…..I was raised as a 4th generation Irish-American Catholic, but as an adult have refuted most of this indoctrination and ideology. I am secular/non-religious, but have my own independent/personal spiritual beliefs. I respect all world religions, except for those fundamentalist religions that espouse war, violence, murder, and destruction.

I neither advocate this theory about Ted Haggard’s denunciations of Israel and subsequent ‘fall from grace’ nor reject it. ……….but I am curious and would like to know if indeed he was set up.

Ted Haggard-Israel Relationship Link:
TedHaggardIsraelArticle

also, here’s a link regarding Hagee/End of Times Theory/Iran
HageeEndofTimesWarIran

p.s. For obvious reasons, I have absolutely zero respect for Joe Lieberman and his fanatical support for Israel’s occupations/mass murder sprees

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Did Jesus ever ask folks for money?
Posted by: Lauren on Jul 23, 2007 10:58 AM   
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This question was nagging me yesterday. I am not a bible scholar, so I don't know the answer. Anyone?

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We need to organize against the rightwing militarists... CUFI & AIPAC
Posted by: tomjoad on Jul 23, 2007 12:08 PM   
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This is a very dangerous alliance. Both groups standing on their own have done terrible damage by their influence on US policy, in preventing the possibility of peace and justice in the Middle East. When they act together their damage is multiplied.

What can we do? What can civil society, the vast majority of Christians, secular, Jews, Muslims, and all the rest of us, do to counter this war-worshiping/anti-human rights influence on our body politic?

Organize, organize, organize. We are the majority. We reject the politics of war, of occupation, of disrespect for human rights. We want all to live in peace with justice in the Middle East, and therefore demand an end to Israeli occupation and US sponsorship of this dispossession of Palestinians of their homes and farms. We demand worldwide nuclear disarmament, not just for Iran but also for Israel, for the United States and Korea, Pakistan and India. We represent the majority of people on this planet and we must not be silent. We will not sit by as religious extremists play Armageddon with the earth's people. We will not let them promote catastrophe beyond our worst nightmare's.

What would happen if each time there were a CUFI or AIPAC event in a local community there was also a protest, people gathered for peace, for human rights for ALL?

Go to Stop AIPAC! to read more about the CUFI/AIPAC connection and how to plug into protests against these lobbies for war & occupation.

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Inversed Eschatology
Posted by: ceti on Jul 23, 2007 12:26 PM   
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Actually, if one was to apply Revelations to a modern context as end timers do, a true scholar of apocalyptic texts, unblinded by nationalist prejudices, would have to surmise that the Babylon described in Revelations can be none other than the US. There are too many descriptions of Babylon that only fit the world's hyperpower. Even the Antichrist's alliance but eventual betrayal of Israel is noted and fits the Christian Zionist eschatology quite well.

Even if you don't believe in the literal historical application of Revelations (i.e., it describes events in the 1st century AD), the book clearly talks about an immensely powerful empire that bestrides the world like a colossus and deigns to war with God. The antichrist emperor is a character that appears over and over again (Napoleon, Hitler), whose hubris in attempting to remake the world ends in untold sorrows and horrors. As an allegory, it is actually quite powerful where today's nero-cons resemble yesterdays Neros.

As for Iran, it served as an instrument of God in shattering the Babylonian empire and freeing the Jews from captivity 2500 years ago. In fact, the second temple was built with their assistance, so all this warmongering after Iran seems quite odd.

Also if you actually read the "Judgement of Nations" parable of the sheep and the goats found towards the end of Matthew (25:31–46) you will find the real determinants that Jesus laid out for how the nations will be judged. It is pretty straightforward even if interpreted in ways that completely distort its simple meaning by conservative Christians -- those who treat the least of their societies with compassion and care will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who despised and ignored their least will go straight to hell. A more damning indictment of capitalism cannot be found elsewhere.

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Thank you for freedom of speech Alternet!
Posted by: american on Jul 23, 2007 12:41 PM   
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I tried to post a comment on The Huffington Post yesterday in response to a blog critical of neoconservatives. The article conjectured that the Christian religious right is to blame for the whole fiasco this world has been enduring. I pointed out that Zionist Jews are as responsible as the "Christian right" for the atrocities. Some highly visible Zionists are Paul Wolfowitz ("architect" of the Iraq war), Richard Perle (chief propagandist), Judith Miller (major propagandist), William Kristol (major propagandist) and Joe Lieberman (traitor to Constitution, party, and American people). I mean this is well known, right? There was a yellow banner, however, across the comment submission I wrote. I checked back later and saw that it didn't post. Was I "insensitive?" Speaking of sensitivity, you know what's insensitive (and maddening)? - An advanced rocket blowing your children and wife away! One triggered by troops simply carrying out orders, albeit from conceited, hypocritical and spineless chickenhawks in a faraway land who throw shame on top of their spite by calling for you to do more to shore up the unpeaceful situation they provoked in your own homeland!

This is what is happening, right?

Thank you Alternet for allowing me to say so.

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SPIRITUALITY MUST BE SOUGHT
Posted by: Roverton on Jul 23, 2007 1:20 PM   
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Not force fed.

Beliefs presented at the end of a broad sword are by no means the true word of God.

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Source of Lieberman quote??? (Ms. Posner?)
Posted by: Artaraxl on Jul 23, 2007 1:23 PM   
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Anyone find the source of, or independent confirmation of the Lieberman quote at the end of the article? I Googled it but didn't come up with any MSM citations, only a few blog posts linking back to AlterNet.

Frankly, I'm slightly surprised that even Lieberman would go so far as to say this.

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dick
Posted by: rtmyth on Jul 23, 2007 3:10 PM   
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Hagee is a well-known local hypocrite. His dark past is not so well-known but is on the web. He is a dangerous religious fanatic, hopefully recognized by at least some folks in Washington.

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» links? Posted by: fanny666
» RE: dick Posted by: lurchleft
I am waiting...
Posted by: opeluboy on Jul 23, 2007 3:13 PM   
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... to join CUAI: Christians United Against Israel.

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fun d' mental...
Posted by: particle61 on Jul 23, 2007 3:52 PM   
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and radical empire builders; redstateupdate covers crazy christians and the empire builders who do their bidding with humor and prescience, see stories-

Christians Intrude In Veteran's Affairs, issue 103
Flotilla of Indicators Reveals Administration’s Plan for Iran, issue 104
Christians Exhibit Disdain for Science At Creation Museum, issue 101

for many, many more stories of pre-rapture America, see 'fun d' mental' and 'spread of the red' archves...
and a new gwbush comic every week

www.redstateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free
and 'it's all true'

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Of course they want more war
Posted by: fanny666 on Jul 23, 2007 3:58 PM   
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Gerald Sutliff
Posted by: Gerald on Jul 23, 2007 4:05 PM   
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I like you 'cause you've got puck.
Keep up the good work.

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Did you ever notice...
Posted by: opeluboy on Jul 23, 2007 4:15 PM   
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... that Hagee and his Christianist ilk never quote form the New Testament? Maybe this is because there's nothing in there about required support for the state of Israel, and in fact a lot that would be against it.

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